Knicks · Great, another road game against Boston, 730 MSG (page 7)

Clean @ 12/9/2023 1:49 PM
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:

Been saying this for damn near 4 years. Teams shooting so well from 3 against us is a scheme problem. People don't like when I talk about Thibs though. Our defense relies on people missing open 3's.

People See Randle and Thibs and think. We were trash for so many years and at least we are decent now. So lets ride it out. I see both of them and appreciate what they have done for us but also know in my heart our potentential to get further than where we are will severely be limited while they have prominant roles on this team due to their glaring shortcomings.

4 years of team defensive stats on opponent 3pt%.

What jumps out at you?

#23 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent...
#12 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent...
#6 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent...
#1 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent...

Opp 3pt% is too broad of a stat to get to the problem I have with our defensive scheme. If you really want to get to the bottom of how bad our 3pt defense is then find these 2 stats. Amount of open 3's given up compared to other teams and our opponents percentage on those open 3's.

By using the stats you provided we were the number 1 team in opp 3pt percentage during the 20-21 season. That would make you think we were a pretty good 3pt defensive team. We were one of the worst teams that season on the amount of open 3's we gave up but guess what. Teams only shot 33.7% on those open 3's by all star break and 36.2% by the end of the year. Numbers can be deceiving without context.

https://nypost.com/2021/05/20/knicks-wil...

This is you:

"Teams shooting so well from 3 against us is a scheme problem."

"Opp 3pt% is too broad of a stat to get to the problem I have with our defensive scheme."

If you would like to only focus on wide open 3pt%, YOU need to find and show the stats that actually show those things and how it effects the defensive scheme.

You made 2 diametrically opposing statements. Perhaps you meant to only refine that down to wide open 3pointers, which is fine.

Perhaps you can show something that clearly backs up your position instead of just making some unclear assumptions.

This is the literal conclusion from the article:

At the end of it all, Knicks opponents shot just 38.8 percent on wide-open looks this season, the second-worst rate

All you had to say is that you don't want to figure out the real problem. Its cool with me. Why even reply to me if you are not interested in finding out what the real problem is?

I just showed you the flaw of the stat you provided but sure ignore it. Your stat without context would make you think we were the best opp 3pt shooting defenders in the NBA that year. However on further inspection we were one of the worst teams but our opponents just missed open shots that year. The point in asking you to show me the stats I asked for is because it will probably show teams are shooting much better on those open 3's since that 20-21 season. You were just fine giving me stats when you thought you proved your point. Once I pointed out the flaws in your stat now its a problem to provide stats. It's no big deal. I understand how this goes. Have a blessed day.

PS: The conclusion you quoted includes 2pt shots. Which is why that does not apply to what we are talking about. 38% on open shots in general is still extremely lucky but we are talking about 3pt shots.

martin @ 12/9/2023 2:00 PM
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:

Been saying this for damn near 4 years. Teams shooting so well from 3 against us is a scheme problem. People don't like when I talk about Thibs though. Our defense relies on people missing open 3's.

People See Randle and Thibs and think. We were trash for so many years and at least we are decent now. So lets ride it out. I see both of them and appreciate what they have done for us but also know in my heart our potentential to get further than where we are will severely be limited while they have prominant roles on this team due to their glaring shortcomings.

4 years of team defensive stats on opponent 3pt%.

What jumps out at you?

#23 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent...
#12 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent...
#6 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent...
#1 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent...

Opp 3pt% is too broad of a stat to get to the problem I have with our defensive scheme. If you really want to get to the bottom of how bad our 3pt defense is then find these 2 stats. Amount of open 3's given up compared to other teams and our opponents percentage on those open 3's.

By using the stats you provided we were the number 1 team in opp 3pt percentage during the 20-21 season. That would make you think we were a pretty good 3pt defensive team. We were one of the worst teams that season on the amount of open 3's we gave up but guess what. Teams only shot 33.7% on those open 3's by all star break and 36.2% by the end of the year. Numbers can be deceiving without context.

https://nypost.com/2021/05/20/knicks-wil...

This is you:

"Teams shooting so well from 3 against us is a scheme problem."

"Opp 3pt% is too broad of a stat to get to the problem I have with our defensive scheme."

If you would like to only focus on wide open 3pt%, YOU need to find and show the stats that actually show those things and how it effects the defensive scheme.

You made 2 diametrically opposing statements. Perhaps you meant to only refine that down to wide open 3pointers, which is fine.

Perhaps you can show something that clearly backs up your position instead of just making some unclear assumptions.

This is the literal conclusion from the article:

At the end of it all, Knicks opponents shot just 38.8 percent on wide-open looks this season, the second-worst rate

All you had to say is that you don't want to figure out the real problem. Its cool with me. Why even reply to me if you are not interested in finding out what the real problem is?

I just showed you the flaw of the stat you provided but sure ignore it. Your stat without context would make you think we were the best opp 3pt shooting defenders in the NBA that year. However on further inspection we were one of the worst teams but our opponents just missed open shots that year. The point in asking you to show me the stats I asked for is because it will probably show teams are shooting much better on those open 3's since that 20-21 season. You were just fine giving me stats when you thought you proved your point. Once I pointed out the flaws in your stat now its a problem to provide stats. It's no big deal. I understand how this goes. Have a blessed day.

This is the literal context of opponent 3point shooting percentages for the 2020-21 season, to cap off the above.

They were #1 in opponent 3pt FG% against them.

They were #2 in opponent FG% against regarding wide-open looks.

Perhaps your assumption that the wide-open looks is the bad thing within the bigger picture of the scheme is not correct. Just because you point out something you don't like and is not really a good thing, is not really relevant in the big picture of things.

Defense and schemes are difficult and I am 100% positive you can find at least 1 really really bad thing about every team's offense and defense. That's a fair statement.

To go beyond that and act like it's THE thing that is doing to make the entire offense/defense poor is a step that I am not going to take just because someone keeps spewing about it.

Back it up, cause you have not. It's just something that bothers you at this point.

When you go #1 and then #2 across the exact 2 stats you are trying to build context around that is in the exact opposite of your point and those stats are also across a whole season... that's a tough statistical hill to come back from. Cause then you can just throw out all stats and claim a team just got lucky.

martin @ 12/9/2023 3:06 PM
Clean wrote: The point in asking you to show me the stats I asked for is because it will probably show teams are shooting much better on those open 3's since that 20-21 season

You are asking me to find you stats that back up your point. Literally. And then you cap it off with “it will probably” make your point.

Probably.

If you want to help make your own point, kindly do your own homework, which you clearly have not done or shown, cause you have just told us that and asked for that information.

You have a blessed day as well.

martin @ 12/9/2023 3:32 PM
One person’s take.

For me, it’s a hard judge and juggle to differentiate between scheme, execution, and talent. All 3 things need to be on same page for things to work out at a high level, especially in the context of your individual and team development cycle.

Clean @ 12/9/2023 3:49 PM

Weakside being too deep like I been pointing out. Thibs thinks other teams play like us. No, they actually pass to the open man without having to dribble the air out of the ball. If Thibs did this against Randle it would be great defense because he misses open players all the time. However, against the rest of the NBA this is not good defense unless they miss open 3's.

LivingLegend @ 12/9/2023 8:25 PM
nycericanguy wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:hurts to see what could have been with KP. Brunson and KP were deadly in DAL. people here talking about trading multiple assets for role players but an all star, two way big who stretches the floor was available for Tyus Jones and a 2nd rounder and we weren't in on it. this FO should have taken that risk, it was low risk/high reward. I legit think we could have won a chip with KP here. He's everything we lack at C and would have opened up the floor big time for our scorers.

we might have handed BOS the title.

Easy to say that now. However, it ignores KPs feared risk. Injuries. There was never a doubt about his ability. Hopefully he stays healthy. If we traded for him and he got hurt, the posts would be somewhat different.

It's been easy to say before and now...KP is going to miss 20-30 games a year, doesn't matter, our team, like BOS wouldn't be relying on him to be a #1 guy. Very few stars play 75 games anymore. Khawi might miss 30 games but if he were available for a 2nd and role players you wouldn't want him? these two way players change the game. KP has changed the game for BOS.

KP could have been our #4/5 guy like he is in BOS behind Randle, Brunson, RJ & maybe even IQ.

We had plenty of depth and assets.

just b/c a guy misses games doesn't mean he's not valuable. AD misses a ton of games for the Lakers but if it works you get a chip.

KP's role in BOS isn't nearly as demanding as what it was before, he would have had a similarly easier role here. Space the floor, shoot 3's and defend the rim.

Agree with most of this NYC - the issue was likely Thibs tied to Mitch…just like he is to Julius.

KP was there to be had.

Porque no los dos?

Mitch is a 28mpg player, that alone leaves 20mpg at C, and you easily have another 14mpg at backup PF.

Truth be told KP is probably best limited to 28mpg or so anyway and would probably fit better with the starters since he spaces the floor so much.

Just the threat of KP 25 feet out opens things up for BOS so much.

It was a huge blunder not going after him and strengthening BOS in the process.. it is what it is but none of this is hindsight and it's copium to suggest that just b/c KP misses some games he's not worth it.

Remove the guy that can’t catch, dribble, pass or shoot.

LivingLegend @ 12/9/2023 8:29 PM
martin wrote:One person’s take.

For me, it’s a hard judge and juggle to differentiate between scheme, execution, and talent. All 3 things need to be on same page for things to work out at a high level, especially in the context of your individual and team development cycle.

Hard to follow all of that but it seems good/smart teams can put Jalen/Julius in various action and if they keep moving the ball 1 or both with either stop rotating or in Julius case not know/care where to rotate.

Throw in you put Mitch in a pick and pop defensive situation and he moves his feet like a wounded elephant

martin @ 12/14/2023 6:18 PM
LOL it happens to every team

Clean @ 12/14/2023 7:27 PM
martin wrote:LOL it happens to every team

That guy is entertaining.

ToddTT @ 12/14/2023 8:11 PM
We’re doing this thread again?

martin @ 12/14/2023 10:41 PM
ToddTT wrote:We’re doing this thread again?

ToddBot rewind edition

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