Knixkik wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:I agree with Martin, at the end of the day it will be Malcolm Brogdon for Fournier for a future first
and we keep Grimes out of the deal. Then we turn to getting a center for the playoffs.
Hartenstein
Randle
Anunoby
DiVincenzo
Brunson
Hart
Brogdon
Grimes
Achiuwa
With McBride in his 10th man emergency role
I like it. The only downside is grimes minutes will go back to being pinched when the team is full strength but I just don’t see an alternative there. Other options instead of Brogdon like Rozier or Clarkson do the same thing.
Let's just get Precious right. I thought I was watching Noel the other night minus the defense.
martin wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:martin wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nycericanguy wrote:DLeethal wrote:nycericanguy wrote:DLeethal wrote:nycericanguy wrote:DJ is really the guy that makes sense if we are making another trade this year.He's a guy that has averaged over 9apg playing PG, has been all NBA defense, and can of course handle the ball.
If his improved 3pt shot is legit and Thibs can get him back to being all defense he could be a huge addition.
Part of me wants a legit bench player after seeing the free flowing ball movement/cutting of the first unit with DDV and OG. Adding another pounder to the starters just puts RJ back there on offense.
we got rid of TWO high usage scorers, I think theres room for and probably a need for a 3rd scorer that can create. DJ solves alot for us right now, he didn't make so much sense before but he fits this team well.
He also led the league in deflections 2 years ago, he's long and like DDV will get into the passing lanes.
I don't see us trading for older players and nuetering Grimes again nor should we.
I think Flynn was bought in as that emergency ball handler for now, and he could end up taking Miles spot if Miles doesn't step up.
I get your point. The sweet spot is finding a 15 mpg backup who is competent to run an offense. Not necessarily someone who is going to play off ball or eat into Grimes/DDV mins. If Brunson goes down for 2 weeks this team is in serious trouble right now IMO.
Although I am still fine getting a guy like Brogdon or Tyus Jones. Jones is honestly the perfect prototype player I am thinking of.
Grimes truthfully hasn't earned guaranteed heavy minutes. You probably would trade him if you are going after Brogdon anyway.
if we trade Grimes for DJ then the minutes are available.
you need that 3rd scorer come playoff time, especially with Randle's struggles. And you need that 3rd creator.
DJ put up 23ppg against MIA in the playoffs last year, he's the only guy that could provide any insurance for a Brunson injury.
Concern is, why is it not working in ATL? You would think that's great on paper as well.
He likes the ball in his hand. Not the case in ATL nor would it be here with JB.
He is the elite creator we need? Three point efficiency?
Still a fan and honestly would not complain if we pulled it off but just concerns I have.
May prefer rolling with my man Devo. Great fit this far. And hope Grimes, JHart hold second unit down.
May be a case of small improvements a better option at optimizing returns.
Back up C, vet back up PG and vet scorer off the bench.
Like idea of Collins, Bones, Brogdon, Tyus and even Demar if not too costly.
Because of Trae. Trae needs the ball in his hands and is not a good off ball guy (in the way Brunson can be), and that takes the ball out of Dejounte's hands.
And then Dejounte has to guard big SG's, which he can, but he is better with the smaller, quicker PG type dudes.
JB"s climb to possible 1A has been due to his ability to have the ball in his hand, take advantage of mid court pivot game and increase role from what he was in Dallas. AKA a spot up shooter to heavier ball handler in Luka.
So why put him back in that position?
I'm not. I think they can strike a nice balance, especially if one of those guys who has the initial DJM comes off the bench as a 6th man.
Earl, Clyde.
Think the best balance is someone who can create at an elite level but also spread the floor for JB and Randle (high 3pt efficiency). Not sure if Murray gives us the elite playmaking or high efficiency. But again, because of his defense, I would not be complaining if he was here. Just a concern of fit. But guess one can have concerns about anyone .
The starting 5 looks really good. OG is just such a good fit on the team. It might take some time before we can see his full effect on the team offensively but on defense its such a big upgrade.
Im just worried about the team's second unit. Across two game we can clearly see the effects of the loss of IQ, who is balling on his 2nd game with the Raptors. I'm curious to add Murray even as a trial coz if it doesn't work out a package of Murray and a young player plus 3 protected 1st is much better than Fournier and a young player plus 4 or 5 protected picks for a chance to trade for a superstar.
But at the current state of the roster, Im not sure if Murray is the right player to round out the roster for the rest of the season. The team needs a scoring jolt off the bench, will moving Devincenzo and probably giving RJ's role on the 2nd unit to Murray will do the trick or just trade for Brogdon or Clarkson to fortify the scoring of the bench.
Will a package of Brogdon or clarkson plus 3 1st rounders be enough to get a superstar in the off season? Im not optimistic. Thats the only reason why i want the FO to trade for Murray at the deadline. It just seem like the current 2nd unit is not ready to fill the shoes left by IQ. This current team might be better than last year's team but if the FO can still make a move to help the second unit production, maybe they can barge to the Eastern conference Finals if things break the team's way.
I’m loving the fit of the starting lineup. Brunson and Randle are complimented perfectly by OG, Ihart and DDV. It’s a starting group I’m confident can win their minutes against most teams. Murray’s fit wouldn’t be as seamless in the starting lineup. His value would be more due to his ability to stagger with the second unit. But I think the Knicks would be better this season if they just left things alone in the starting group and focused on adding a scoring piece off the bench. Right now thibs doesn’t trust this team at all without Brunson on the floor. McBride gets 10 mins a game and does exactly what he’s supposed to do. Knock down a 3, draw back to back charge etc. and the Knicks still lose those minutes badly because they can’t score. McBride is excellent in his situational role, and his contract backs that up. He’s not getting paid like a rotational player. And Grimes is strictly 3&D. He’s not comfortable putting the ball on the floor at all. We need someone in the bench rotation who is.
If we stand pat and Rokas doesnt come over now then he never will. this is his time.
nycericanguy wrote:If we stand pat and Rokas doesnt come over now then he never will. this is his time.
Dude should buy his contract out NOW
Worst Knicks line up of the year was Deuce-Grimes-Hart-Achiuwa and Randle
Julius has to play with shooters and we had 4 guys who arent really confident in their shot now.Grimes needs to be the guy, but he doesn't look ready. Hart isnt as decisive offensively asnhe was last year.
I have to ask out loud - why wouldn't you give Fournier a chance, especially when McBride or Anunoby are on the floor to cover? He is a legit NBA scoring threat and we are talking about a bench that can't score.
The other obvious, cheap solution would be to grab an Alec Burks who can play on or off ball and create his own offense.
VDesai wrote:Worst Knicks line up of the year was Deuce-Grimes-Hart-Achiuwa and Randle
Julius has to play with shooters and we had 4 guys who arent really confident in their shot now.Grimes needs to be the guy, but he doesn't look ready. Hart isnt as decisive offensively asnhe was last year.I have to ask out loud - why wouldn't you give Fournier a chance, especially when McBride or Anunoby are on the floor to cover? He is a legit NBA scoring threat and we are talking about a bench that can't score.
The other obvious, cheap solution would be to grab an Alec Burks who can play on or off ball and create his own offense.
Yeah, the only thing I got is they won’t risk Evan getting injured. We have waited so long to leverage his contract in a trade
Tough call right now. The starters look like such a functional unit with the high IQ, ball movement and defensive tenacity that OG and DDV bring. Couple that with DDV's Novak level shooting this year. Those two guys just compliment Brunson and Randle brilliantly.
But we still need a little more talent, we need a 3rd scorer, we need a legit bench focal point.
DJ is a riskier "all in" move or at least much closer to it.
Brogdon is safer play to just load up in an area of glaring weakness now. Tyus Jones would be nice or a bench floor general like that would also work. Burks is a cheap option we could probably get for 1-2 seconds. Burks and Randle could do just fine with that second staggered unit. We don't need to make a huge play right now because the starters look really good. That said, DJ might give us a punchers chance at winning it all if it clicks right.
I believe the starting lineup works because we now have only 2 players who are trying to be the number one option, with OG and DDV playing a support role, while Brunson and Randle taking turns being the main option. And iHart being the anchor, doing the dirty work.
For the bench, we need to see the same balance. I agree that trading for Murray, and just telling him (or any other skilled player) to come off the bench, would be a bad idea. You have to sell a player on that role, before the trade. Be upfront about it.
That would still be hard to do, but possible if we start moving up the East. Its been a brutal stretch for the Knicks. A strong run into the all-star break (and the trade deadline) and maybe a player who might not normally be open to coming off the bench, might be OK with it, if the Knicks look like they're close to contending.
We still have a tough schedule going into the all-star break. If we have a good record in spite of the tough schedule, that would be a good way to recruit a replacement for IQ. Remind them that they werent willing to pay IQ for a bench role, but they're willing to pay them.
Would love DJM, could settle for Brogdan, DRose 3rd times a charm, do-si-do for those Obi picks?
I dont get the Brogdon love, he's 31, not nearly good enough to really make a drastic difference, and would cost us Evan's valuable contract and take us out of the running for another star. He will also either cost us Grimes or essentially take his minutes even if we don't need to include him.
Hard pass.
DJM is the only guy that really could substantially raise our ceiling if things go right, while being young enough to be part of the future, and while also being an asset to trade if we want to trade for a star.
nycericanguy wrote:I dont get the Brogdon love, he's 31, not nearly good enough to really make a drastic difference, and would cost us Evan's valuable contract and take us out of the running for another star. He will also either cost us Grimes or essentially take his minutes even if we don't need to include him.Hard pass.
DJM is the only guy that really could substantially raise our ceiling if things go right, while being young enough to be part of the future, and while also being an asset to trade if we want to trade for a star.
Brogdons contract gives us Evans valuable contract value next season and he will actually play very well. Very good two way player. If he remains with the club for a couple of seasons that's just fine, he doesn't have to be here long term. He is a vet that championship teams always have on their bench, which we currently don't have. If he was younger there would be no way we could acquire him. He has good size as well. I would prefer Murray but sometimes plan B can work out. I get it you like Grimes, buy his Jersey and go to sleep with it every night. But Grimes is not good enough to prevent us getting Brogdon or DeRozan or for many other players that might be available. Be a fan of the team more so then for an individual role player.
nycericanguy wrote:I dont get the Brogdon love, he's 31, not nearly good enough to really make a drastic difference, and would cost us Evan's valuable contract and take us out of the running for another star. He will also either cost us Grimes or essentially take his minutes even if we don't need to include him.Hard pass.
DJM is the only guy that really could substantially raise our ceiling if things go right, while being young enough to be part of the future, and while also being an asset to trade if we want to trade for a star.
Brogdon has good positional size, really good shooter, solid on and off the ball, his contract is perfect as it’s one more year for slightly more money than Fournier’s, which makes it easier to match a larger star salary. His age and injury history is why his cost should be lower. He’s a perfect fit for what this team needs off the bench. His contract is more valuable than Fournier’s considering we would have to make a decision on Fournier’s contract before a star likely becomes available. Brogdon is a slightly higher salary for one more year in an actually useful player for what we need.
Knixkik wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I dont get the Brogdon love, he's 31, not nearly good enough to really make a drastic difference, and would cost us Evan's valuable contract and take us out of the running for another star. He will also either cost us Grimes or essentially take his minutes even if we don't need to include him.Hard pass.
DJM is the only guy that really could substantially raise our ceiling if things go right, while being young enough to be part of the future, and while also being an asset to trade if we want to trade for a star.
Brogdon has good positional size, really good shooter, solid on and off the ball, his contract is perfect as it’s one more year for slightly more money than Fournier’s, which makes it easier to match a larger star salary. His age and injury history is why his cost should be lower. He’s a perfect fit for what this team needs off the bench. His contract is more valuable than Fournier’s considering we would have to make a decision on Fournier’s contract before a star likely becomes available. Brogdon is a slightly higher salary for one more year in an actually useful player for what we need.
I think Brogdan is fine, tho his defense has fallen off in recent years. The thing about his alary tho is that the Knicks currently sit just under $10M under the hard cap. The OG extension is coming up and iHart's FA after the season. You bring Brogdan and you have to be confident that he is a difference maker and, to be honest, I'm not sure the team wins many more games with Brogdan.
BigDaddyG wrote:Knixkik wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I dont get the Brogdon love, he's 31, not nearly good enough to really make a drastic difference, and would cost us Evan's valuable contract and take us out of the running for another star. He will also either cost us Grimes or essentially take his minutes even if we don't need to include him.Hard pass.
DJM is the only guy that really could substantially raise our ceiling if things go right, while being young enough to be part of the future, and while also being an asset to trade if we want to trade for a star.
Brogdon has good positional size, really good shooter, solid on and off the ball, his contract is perfect as it’s one more year for slightly more money than Fournier’s, which makes it easier to match a larger star salary. His age and injury history is why his cost should be lower. He’s a perfect fit for what this team needs off the bench. His contract is more valuable than Fournier’s considering we would have to make a decision on Fournier’s contract before a star likely becomes available. Brogdon is a slightly higher salary for one more year in an actually useful player for what we need.
I think Brogdan is fine, tho his defense has fallen off in recent years. The thing about his alary tho is that the Knicks currently sit just under $10M under the hard cap. The OG extension is coming up and iHart's FA after the season. You bring Brogdan and you have to be confident that he is a difference maker and, to be honest, I'm not sure the team wins many more games with Brogdan.
He could make the difference in a playoff series when defenses stifle and confuse Randle. Brogdon is a vet who stretches the floor, demands the defense to account for him. He is big enough to play with Brunson as well. Can't see him costing so much, a protected first with Fournier. Might be able to keep Grimes out of the deal. Then we trade for a back up center. He is not a bad get if we got him. Team with Brogdon off the bench will be even more deadly. Time for another move. Not the time to take the foot off the accelerator.
BigDaddyG wrote:Knixkik wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I dont get the Brogdon love, he's 31, not nearly good enough to really make a drastic difference, and would cost us Evan's valuable contract and take us out of the running for another star. He will also either cost us Grimes or essentially take his minutes even if we don't need to include him.Hard pass.
DJM is the only guy that really could substantially raise our ceiling if things go right, while being young enough to be part of the future, and while also being an asset to trade if we want to trade for a star.
Brogdon has good positional size, really good shooter, solid on and off the ball, his contract is perfect as it’s one more year for slightly more money than Fournier’s, which makes it easier to match a larger star salary. His age and injury history is why his cost should be lower. He’s a perfect fit for what this team needs off the bench. His contract is more valuable than Fournier’s considering we would have to make a decision on Fournier’s contract before a star likely becomes available. Brogdon is a slightly higher salary for one more year in an actually useful player for what we need.
I think Brogdan is fine, tho his defense has fallen off in recent years. The thing about his alary tho is that the Knicks currently sit just under $10M under the hard cap. The OG extension is coming up and iHart's FA after the season. You bring Brogdan and you have to be confident that he is a difference maker and, to be honest, I'm not sure the team wins many more games with Brogdan.
I don’t view Brogdon being the direct reason the Knicks win more games, I see him as a solution to take some pressure off of Brunson and Randle. Thibs isn’t playing those guys less than 40 mins in a non-blowout. He doesn’t trust the bench outside of Hart. Can’t run Brunson to the ground. Also, what are the odds he plays 82 games ? Brogdon is a guy who can step up like Quickley did. We need to keep these guys upright.
I’ve been thinking about how although Washington doesn’t have the perfect players, they might be the perfect trade partner. The Washington first is our least valuable. It has no chance to convey into a first because Washington will be bad and have no pressure to be good anytime soon. And Poole sucks and they are stuck with him, so they are sort of locked into being bad for awhile. Knicks can send Fournier and their pick back for some combination of players to help the depth. Gafford or Tyus Jones, along with either Wright, Gallinari, or Johnny Davis. Something along those lines. Again not sexy at all but useful pieces to have. Some salary to carry over into next year since I doubt we pick up Fournier’s option. This is just a way to get some of what we need without giving up anything real. The Washington pick is as fake a first as they come and everyone knows it at this point.
Knixkik wrote:I’ve been thinking about how although Washington doesn’t have the perfect players, they might be the perfect trade partner. The Washington first is our least valuable. It has no chance to convey into a first because Washington will be bad and have no pressure to be good anytime soon. And Poole sucks and they are stuck with him, so they are sort of locked into being bad for awhile. Knicks can send Fournier and their pick back for some combination of players to help the depth. Gafford or Tyus Jones, along with either Wright, Gallinari, or Johnny Davis. Something along those lines. Again not sexy at all but useful pieces to have. Some salary to carry over into next year since I doubt we pick up Fournier’s option. This is just a way to get some of what we need without giving up anything real. The Washington pick is as fake a first as they come and everyone knows it at this point.
I like Jones, but he is FA after this season. What do you think it would take to get him? DDV money?
Knixkik wrote:I’ve been thinking about how although Washington doesn’t have the perfect players, they might be the perfect trade partner. The Washington first is our least valuable. It has no chance to convey into a first because Washington will be bad and have no pressure to be good anytime soon. And Poole sucks and they are stuck with him, so they are sort of locked into being bad for awhile. Knicks can send Fournier and their pick back for some combination of players to help the depth. Gafford or Tyus Jones, along with either Wright, Gallinari, or Johnny Davis. Something along those lines. Again not sexy at all but useful pieces to have. Some salary to carry over into next year since I doubt we pick up Fournier’s option. This is just a way to get some of what we need without giving up anything real. The Washington pick is as fake a first as they come and everyone knows it at this point.
The Detroit and Wizards will be bad and they may not convey simply by their records. However as an other fine poster reminded me can still convey as firsts anyway due to the lottery. Teams move up in the lottery and teams fall backwards as well. The protections for the picks give the chance that a team can fall back and into our hands based on the protected order. So they really are lottery tickets. Plus if they are so bad that the pick doesn't convey the picks become second rounders at the very top of the second round. Thus pseudo firsts with better salary cap freedom for the team who owns it.So the picks aren't worthless as I thought myself. They really are lotto tickets that some team might want to bank for the future a good team might just keep those picks in the drawer and see if they hit
