Knicks · Hello all, and an historic milestone (page 1)

I've been watching the Knicks for a while, as I remember Walt Frazier and Bill Bradley. As rookies. I wonder how many of you noticed the milestone I'm referring to. Thanks to the rotten seasons the Washington Wizards and Charlotte Hornets are having this year, the Knicks now have only the third worst record in the NBA since trading Patrick Ewing in September 2000. Yes, I know Leon Rose is an improvement over Scott Layden as GM, but I think this meteoric rise is due more to changes in the NBA both on and off the court than any fundamental change in the Knicks. But perhaps this has been discussed here too much already.

Welcome. That’s a lot of basketball. Who are your favorite Knicks?

Welcome man. We have sucked so much for so long that people just take our sucktitude for granted. These are not Clearance Weatherspoon's Knicks anymore. Eddie Curry is also long gone. I like to live in the present. Give me Deuce and Hartenstein PnR all day everyday

2000s were dark years

Welcome! I've been part of the community for over 20 years, mainly as a reader. Those 2000s teams were so disheartening; I guess the worst part was the expectations. I saw every single year/trade/new signing as the turning point, and at some point, I lost faith. Melo years were nice, but with Lebron in his prime years, it always felt like we were gonna play for second place. Now I finally feel we are a team, with an identity and a plan.

What is your favorite "what if" moment for the Knicks?

EwingDeChile wrote:Welcome! I've been part of the community for over 20 years, mainly as a reader. Those 2000s teams were so disheartening; I guess the worst part was the expectations. I saw every single year/trade/new signing as the turning point, and at some point, I lost faith. Melo years were nice, but with Lebron in his prime years, it always felt like we were gonna play for second place. Now I finally feel we are a team, with an identity and a plan.

What is your favorite "what if" moment for the Knicks?

If the fucking morons at Gulf and WEstern took DR J instead of the 4million indemnity payment in 1976.
If McDyess did not blow his knee out. He was that good.
IF Isiah Thomas never signed on as GM.

My favorite Knicks probably are Bill Bradley and Willis Reed, both of whom I was privileged to meet, but well after their playing days. As for the Knicks' extended lack of success on the court (though they are hugely profitable off it) in my opinion that stems mostly from the fact that their owner also owns MSG, the TV network that carries their games in their lucrative NYC/tristate area market. He not surprisingly sees MSG as his real business, not the Knicks, and has openly acknowledged he makes as much or more money when the Knicks lose. Remember NBA team owners aren't really team owners but equal partners in a jointly owned business which is the NBA itself. The NBA has rules to encourage parity but imo they don't sufficiently incentivize "owners" to field winning teams. Of course, there is a trade-off there.

HowieKomives wrote:My favorite Knicks probably are Bill Bradley and Willis Reed, both of whom I was privileged to meet, but well after their playing days. As for the Knicks' extended lack of success on the court (though they are hugely profitable off it) in my opinion that stems mostly from the fact that their owner also owns MSG, the TV network that carries their games in their lucrative NYC/tristate area market. He not surprisingly sees MSG as his real business, not the Knicks, and has openly acknowledged he makes as much or more money when the Knicks lose. Remember NBA team owners aren't really team owners but equal partners in a jointly owned business which is the NBA itself. The NBA has rules to encourage parity but imo they don't sufficiently incentivize "owners" to field winning teams. Of course, there is a trade-off there.

Gate revenue in a deep playoff run is pure Gravy. Just the cost of running the arena. Player and staff salaries are static.
Losing for knicks is more Profitable? Not sure I agree with that. While national contract is set, local viewership is what distinguishes Knicks over other teams given the magnitude of the NY Metro area. Its huge!!! come playoff time the games are on national contracts but the gate is theirs.
Thus winning can affect the bottom line so long as the salaries/contracts are reasonable. They have been.

As for favorites? The indelible mark of fandom comes as a child. Thus the legacy years are mine. Its why Phil Jax always matters to me. Awkward player, genius coach coach...(11 rings!!!!!, but one shitty exec! I forgive him. Why? he left the team in better shape than when he got them. Small win but take what one can....

Clyde was my favorite player.

Howie Komives gotta be the most qualified poster to tell us whether the OG trade was this generation's Debusschere trade.

VDesai wrote:Howie Komives gotta be the most qualified poster to tell us whether the OG trade was this generation's Debusschere trade.

I remember reading the story about the DeBusschere trade in the newspaper in 1968 like it was yesterday. They got him for Walt Bellamy and, yup, Howie Komives. Even as a little kid I immediately knew that was a very good deal. For New York sports fans of that era, nothing comes close, except possibly when the Yankees traded Danny Cater and Mario Guerrero to the Red Sox for Sparky Lyle in 1972. As far as the OG trade is concerned, that could turn out to be another great deal, especially if the Knicks use their upcoming draft picks wisely. However, the NBA game has changed, and imo, much as I like OG's game, it will be tough for him to have the impact DeBusschere had. You could hear him scream for the ball even from up in the blue seats. REED!! The best thing about Bellamy was that every time he made a shot they rang a bell. I kid you not.

Dave Debusschere was player HEAD coach at age 25 for the pistons. It was rare then, but unheard of now.
He also pitched for the Chi White sox for a bit. The dud had it all.
He came to our local basketball league when I was about 11. Nice guy, shook his hand and he gave me a Trophy. Not everyone got one then! LOL.
It was cool. He lived nearby in Garden City, NY, on the island. This was way before they had the facility in Westchester.

We are reminded by recent events that was about Jerry Krause but forget perhaps a super important person in the history of knicks in an era when GM's had great powers and were the architects of a team: Eddie Donovan.
I found this excerpt as a reminder:

Eddie was a great basketball guy, had a great feeling for the game," said Los Angeles Lakers coach Phil Jackson, who was drafted by Donovan with the Knicks. "He had an affectionate spirit about himself."

Donovan was general manager of the Knicks from 1963-70, acquiring Willis Reed, Bill Bradley, Walt Frazier, Dave DeBusschere, Cazzie Russell and Jackson.

Donovan also coached the Knicks for four seasons, going 84-194. His .302 winning percentage is the worst of the 18 coaches in Knicks history.

His most famous game came on March 2, 1962, in his first season at the helm. Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 points against the Knicks that night in the Philadelphia Warriors' 169-147 win.

Donovan was fired as coach in 1965 but remained as general manager, where he made many of the moves that led to the Knicks titles in 1970 and 1973.

One of the most important one came in December 1968, when Donovan shipped Walt Bellamy and Howard Komives to the Detroit Pistons for DeBusschere.

"It was the trade that made the New York Knicks what they were," Jackson said Sunday after the Lakers' 103-92 loss to Miami.

Donovan left the Knicks for the expansion Buffalo Braves in March 1970, two months before Reed and Frazier led the Knicks past Chamberlain and the Lakers for their first championship.

Donovan returned to the Knicks as general manager in 1975 with less success and was bumped upstairs in 1982.

"He was a wonderfully friendly fellow, a man who really loved basketball," said Jackson, who last talked to Donovan about a year ago.

Funny that a failed coach becomes the architect of the greatest knick team/era ever.
I recall when he came back in 1975 in that Sonny Werblin (1978 and beyond) which became a big starphuch era that proved futile.
The owners were Gulf and Western and they bumbled the DR J offering from the nets. Its a stark reminder that ownership DID and DOES affect how a team is run and those PhuchNuts had to account for profits NOW then see that DR J in NYC could be incredible! And how they never got Kareem here was criminal as well.

Eddie had a hard task. He left the team no doubt seduced by the Braves for a nice payday and then came back to try it again.
Not everything worked. Reed was never a good coach and Red's second stint in the cocaine era was worse.
Besides Kareem and Dr. J Starphuch regrets, Imagine how good Michael Ray Richardson was and if he did not get gripped by the White powder.

The anatomy sample of how knicks go the 4th overall pick in 1978:

October 24, 1976: Traded by the Houston Rockets (as a future 1978 1st round draft pick) with a 1977 1st round draft pick (Wesley Cox was later selected) to the Buffalo Braves for Moses Malone.

September 1, 1977: Traded by the Buffalo Braves (as a future 1978 1st round draft pick) with George Johnson and a 1979 1st round draft pick (Cliff Robinson was later selected) to the New Jersey Nets for Tiny Archibald.

June 8, 1978: Traded by the New Jersey Nets (as a future 1978 1st round draft pick) with a 1979 1st round draft pick (Vinnie Johnson was later selected) to the New York Knicks for Phil Jackson and a 1978 1st round draft pick (Winford Boynes was later selected).

June 9, 1978: Drafted by the New York Knicks in the 1st round (4th pick) of the 1978 NBA Draft.

Eddie Donovan RIP, the dude that made traded For Debusschure. But the cost was high, Bellamy was an allstar center in the era of great centers and is in the HOF. Komives never really lived up to his college scoring acumen in the NBA but was a decent player.
If you really want to make a study of it how that team came together its a worthy journey.

Willis Reed was a second round pick. Less teams then, he was the 10th pick! He was a high flying 4. Think Randle with the hops of Mydyess. Rookie of the year.
Cazzie Russell was 1st overall pick in the league. He was "the next elgin Baylor". But he had knee issues and ego issues. They drafted Bill Bradley prior but when he came back from two year stint at oxford he was afforded opportunities many players did not get. Racial tensions in america ran high it affected the team.
Clyde coming into his own took over for Komives.

more digressed Nalodian Word Salad tidbits:

May 11, 1966: Drafted by the New York Knicks in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1966 NBA Draft.

May 7, 1971: Traded by the New York Knicks to the San Francisco Warriors for Jerry Lucas.

September 6, 1974: Signed as a veteran free agent with the Los Angeles Lakers; the Golden State Warriors received a 1976 1st round draft pick (Robert Parish was later selected) as compensation.

October 17, 1977: Waived by the Los Angeles Lakers.

Intresting how Cazzie became the pick for Parish. Warriors 4 years later traded their pick in 1980, 3rd pick with Robert Parish to move up to get Joe Barry Carroll as the overall no. 1 pick owned by the celtics. Joe Barry "Who" you ask. Yeah, big fuck up! So Auerbach does it again and turns the pick into a staring 5, HOF, and the eras best power forward.

2nd pick was Darrell Griffith, was to be the second coming of David Thompson. This was pre Jordan mind you.

How did the Celtics get that pick?

a 1 2 3 On June 9, 1980, the Golden State Warriors acquired the first and the thirteenth pick from the Boston Celtics in exchange for Robert Parish and the third pick.[23][24] Previously, the Celtics acquired two first-round picks on September 6, 1979, from the Detroit Pistons in exchange for Bob McAdoo. This trade was arranged as compensation when the Celtics signed M. L. Carr on July 24, 1979.[25][26] Previously, the Pistons acquired 1980 and 1982 first-round picks on July 12, 1979, from the Washington Bullets as compensation for the signing of Kevin Porter as a free agent.[27] The Warriors used the picks to draft Joe Barry Carroll and Rickey Brown. The Celtics used the pick to draft Kevin McHale.

Different era but when we start throwing around draft picks like couch change to satisfy a short term need just keep the long term ramifications of draft picks. Rules are much different now and some teams really damaged themselves. The Septian rule was adapted to help teams from becoming idiots. Remember, owners were wealthy then but owning a team was a hobby not good business. The TV money had yet to come into play. This is pre "Bird/Magic" era and NBA was not doing great. Players were high and a recession was in force.

Bit of Celtic lore regarding ownership and Red Auerbach almost becoming a knick:

The following year, Brown traded franchises with Boston Celtics owner Irv Levin.[32] The move allowed Levin to move his franchise to his home state of California, while giving Brown ownership of one of the league's most storied franchises.[32] Two weeks before the swap of franchises was made official, details of a six-player trade between the two were reported.[33] Boston sent Freeman Williams, Kevin Kunnert, and Kermit Washington to the Braves for "Tiny" Archibald, Billy Knight, and Marvin Barnes.[33] The move turned Boston fans against Brown, both because Kunnert and Washington were seen as key pieces of the team's future and because team president and legendary former coach Red Auerbach publicly stated that he was not consulted about the trade.[33] The relationship between Brown and Auerbach worsened with Brown's decision to trade three first-round draft picks that Auerbach had planned to use to rebuild the franchise for Bob McAdoo. Again, Brown made the trade without consulting Auerbach.[34] Auerbach almost left Boston to take a job with the New York Knicks as a result. Brown eventually sold his interest in the team to co-owner Harry Mangurian in 1979.[29][35]

Seems all to random than saying "Auerbach is a genius".....Perhaps part of that might be accurate.

You guys are so fuckin old!

I love it

Nalod wrote: .... While national contract is set, local viewership is what distinguishes Knicks over other teams given the magnitude of the NY Metro area. Its huge!!! come playoff time the games are on national contracts ....

To me, this is the key point. The Knicks have a huge local audience. MSG has the exclusive right (with few exceptions) to serve that audience during the regular season. And the Garden, which of course like MSG and the Knicks, is also owned by Mr. Dolan, routinely sells out or close to it, even in the many seasons the Knicks don't make the playoffs, and even though Knicks home games are still the third-most expensive in the NBA to attend last time I checked, behind only the Lakers and the Mavericks. The Knicks' lack of success on the court over 20+ seasons and numerous GMs and coaches, never mind players, can only be attributed to these long-term factors. As for bad trades, at least until recently, players have not wanted to go to the Knicks. Even Jalen Brunson, with whom the Knicks had the inside track, arrived only after the Knicks broke the tampering rules and had to forfeit a draft pick. But imo things may be looking up for the Knicks despite all this due to other factors in the NBA.

martin wrote:You guys are so fuckin old!

I love it

Nalod is 62. I was 9 when we won our first chip. the 73' team I was fanatical about!
Read Clydes book, Debuschures book, Red's book! etc. Went to my first game in 71' and loved the energy!
"Howie Komives" trade was way before my stream of conscious but it was written about for years!

How old is Martin???

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:You guys are so fuckin old!

I love it

Nalod is 62. I was 9 when we won our first chip. the 73' team I was fanatical about!
Read Clydes book, Debuschures book, Red's book! etc. Went to my first game in 71' and loved the energy!
"Howie Komives" trade was way before my stream of conscious but it was written about for years!

How old is Martin???

Recently passed the 50 joint

Recently is doing a little work lol

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:You guys are so fuckin old!

I love it

Nalod is 62. I was 9 when we won our first chip. the 73' team I was fanatical about!
Read Clydes book, Debuschures book, Red's book! etc. Went to my first game in 71' and loved the energy!
"Howie Komives" trade was way before my stream of conscious but it was written about for years!

How old is Martin???

I'm 65, and because my Dad was a huge Knicks fan, I knew all about them from earliest childhood. I think I even had a program from my Dad autographed by Dick Barnett and Howie Komives, but that's long gone. Our local newspaper, the Staten Island Advance, had a great sports section, and they had an article about the DeBusschere trade, with a stock photo probably from the early 60s of his very young face. The NBA hugely changed in the 60s, imo because Wilt Chamberlain came along, and he was essentially unstoppable. He looked like an adult playing against 13-year old boys. In addition to rule changes he caused the game suddenly became ultra-physical. Even though Wilt was the biggest and strongest, they pounded him enough to slow him down and tire him just enough so he couldn't completely dominate. But Wilt couldn't adjust and still played a physical game, and even though he was the game's greatest player by far, he ended up with only two championships. Meanwhile, Bill Russell and Red Auerbach's Celtics won 11 titles, because they adjusted better to the new game, using speed and smarts to avoid the worst of the physical pounding. Dave DeBusschere was perfectly suited to the new game. Fast, tough, physical and smart. Bellamy and Komives were OK for the old-style NBA game, but not nearly tough and athletic enough for the new, post-Wilt game. They would have no chance of making an NBA roster today.

Today the NBA game has changed again. Rule changes and different officiating have made it a lot more like street ball, sprinting up and down the court, dunks and threes. Even point guards must be able to play above the rim. Playing 48 minutes a game like Wilt did is impossible. Even playing 35 minutes a game for 82 games is highly unlikely. Regular season ball is played at a slightly slower place and players have to pace their effort. The physical defense of past eras is no longer possible, due to the new rules and officiating, and also because 3-point sharp shooters are so good speedy defenders have to chase after them to make them shoot as far behind the line as possible. Inside defenders need to be high-jumping acrobats or 7'4" to block shots cleanly or at least alter them.

So the OG trade is unlikely to have the impact the DeBusschere trade had. OG has intelligently adapted his game to today's NBA rules with good results, but the new street ball style isn't perfectly tailored to him the way the new physical style in the late 60s was ideal for DeBusschere.

DeBusschere trade is always interesting to look at as Bellamy was also a hall of famers. Not many hall of fame for hall of fame deals out there, but Dave D. clearly made a huge difference for NY winning titles and of course is considered a Knick legend.

Back when I was a kid first starting to watch the Knicks in the early 90s, the NY Times had a funny ad as they were trying to establish/sell their sports section where an old timer was drilling a Nerdy young journalist about his sports knowledge. Of course the last question he asked was "Who did the Knicks trade for Dave DeBusschere," and he answers quickly "Walt Bellamy and Howie Komives." That ad and piece of trivia always stuck in my mind.

I only remember Bellamy not as the 4 time allstar with Chicago Packers who then moved to Baltimore, but as the center for ATlanta after his stint with detroit on or around 1971.

Never saw Pistol Pete in play in college, just as a pro.

VDesai wrote:DeBusschere trade is always interesting to look at as Bellamy was also a hall of famers. Not many hall of fame for hall of fame deals out there, but Dave D. clearly made a huge difference for NY winning titles and of course is considered a Knick legend.

Back when I was a kid first starting to watch the Knicks in the early 90s, the NY Times had a funny ad as they were trying to establish/sell their sports section where an old timer was drilling a Nerdy young journalist about his sports knowledge. Of course the last question he asked was "Who did the Knicks trade for Dave DeBusschere," and he answers quickly "Walt Bellamy and Howie Komives." That ad and piece of trivia always stuck in my mind.

Bellamy was big (especially for his day), could take up space underneath and could score but was way too slow for today's game imo. I never checked this before but I notice his big years in the NBA were his first five with a big drop off after the 1965-66 season. Though a Hall of Famer, it would be laughable to compare him to his contemporaries Oscar Robertson, Jerry West and John Havlicek, never mind Wilt. Debusschere, also roughly a contemporary of Robertson, West and Havlicek, also was not quite on their skill level, though a Hall of Famer as well. But Debusschere, Robertson, West and Havlicek all had the speed, toughness and athleticism to excel in the new NBA game. Their production did not drop off after the mid 60s. Komives was nowhere near the athlete of any of those either, and I notice even his more modest production dropped way off after the 1966-67 season. The Knicks changed personnel in response to the changing game. The only significant "old fashioned" style player they got in the mid 60s was Bill Bradley, but he made up for his less than spectacular athleticism in many other ways.

HowieKomives wrote:

VDesai wrote:DeBusschere trade is always interesting to look at as Bellamy was also a hall of famers. Not many hall of fame for hall of fame deals out there, but Dave D. clearly made a huge difference for NY winning titles and of course is considered a Knick legend.

Back when I was a kid first starting to watch the Knicks in the early 90s, the NY Times had a funny ad as they were trying to establish/sell their sports section where an old timer was drilling a Nerdy young journalist about his sports knowledge. Of course the last question he asked was "Who did the Knicks trade for Dave DeBusschere," and he answers quickly "Walt Bellamy and Howie Komives." That ad and piece of trivia always stuck in my mind.

Bellamy was big (especially for his day), could take up space underneath and could score but was way too slow for today's game imo. I never checked this before but I notice his big years in the NBA were his first five with a big drop off after the 1965-66 season. Though a Hall of Famer, it would be laughable to compare him to his contemporaries Oscar Robertson, Jerry West and John Havlicek, never mind Wilt. Debusschere, also roughly a contemporary of Robertson, West and Havlicek, also was not quite on their skill level, though a Hall of Famer as well. But Debusschere, Robertson, West and Havlicek all had the speed, toughness and athleticism to excel in the new NBA game. Their production did not drop off after the mid 60s. Komives was nowhere near the athlete of any of those either, and I notice even his more modest production dropped way off after the 1966-67 season. The Knicks changed personnel in response to the changing game. The only significant "old fashioned" style player they got in the mid 60s was Bill Bradley, but he made up for his less than spectacular athleticism in many other ways.

Bellamy to knicks was also about him playing next to Reed. They did not click.

The wings I recall, Havlicek, Jack Marin and Bradley all were similar. Really good shooters and moved great without the ball. Havlicek was the best of the lot as he could pass really good. Then Came Rick Barry who killed it out west and raised the bar. His ABA days ate some prime but Rick was amazing. Elgin Baylor of course was the creme of that era at the wing. Recall we had Cazzie who might have been with him if not for the knee. Cazzie was the better player but Bradley the better fit once Debusschure came.