Knicks · Completely rhetorical question: Would Donovan Mitchel swallow his pride and come off Knicks bench if he indeed wants to play for them? (page 1)
They would still give him the contract he deserves but also tell him the best situation for the Knicks to win is for him to initially come off bench and close later on in the game.
I know the answer is NO. But give me more as to why he wouldn't join a squad that absolutely would be an East Conference elite team along with Boston in his FAV town on a contract that he favors ready to compete for finals for a long time cause everyone is under 30?
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Seems like OG and Mitchell to join Brunson, Randle and the centers was the plan all along. And Hartenstein being so legit has given them extra reason to go all-in with this group potentially.
Knixkik wrote:Not directly answering your question I know but It seems like the compromise is having him start but pulling him early to lead the bench. OG has completely changed the makeup of the team because I think the front office feels totally comfortable having the small backcourt because OG is such a game changer defensively.Seems like OG and Mitchell to join Brunson, Randle and the centers was the plan all along. And Hartenstein being so legit has given them extra reason to go all-in with this group potentially.
Fair. As DDV may not be that much of an upgrade as a defender than Mitchell?
So, in your opinion, should Donovan be the Knicks' main trade target going forward?
He now seems like destiny with OG in the fold?
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Not directly answering your question I know but It seems like the compromise is having him start but pulling him early to lead the bench. OG has completely changed the makeup of the team because I think the front office feels totally comfortable having the small backcourt because OG is such a game changer defensively.Seems like OG and Mitchell to join Brunson, Randle and the centers was the plan all along. And Hartenstein being so legit has given them extra reason to go all-in with this group potentially.
Fair. As DDV may not be that much of an upgrade as a defender than Mitchell?
So, in your opinion, should Donovan be the Knicks' main trade target going forward?
He now seems like destiny with OG in the fold?
Yeah I think he makes the most sense unless someone like Booker comes up unexpectedly. Mitchell is still young, pretty durable, he’s long enough to guard wings, and shoots well enough to not disrupt the spacing that has improved so much since swapping out Barrett for Anunoby. Whomever Knicks move Fournier for (brown, Brogdon etc) can be the primary contract outgoing. Maybe mitch possibly to a third team for a pick or prospect to Cleveland. And all of the picks needed. I was always conceded about the Mitchell fit and if they got him who would eventually play the wing that could balance it out. Now I don’t have that concern. Knicks bench scoring won’t be a concern either with Mitchell serving as the primary playmaker off the bench. But again this is all hypothetical just makes the most sense.
Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Not directly answering your question I know but It seems like the compromise is having him start but pulling him early to lead the bench. OG has completely changed the makeup of the team because I think the front office feels totally comfortable having the small backcourt because OG is such a game changer defensively.Seems like OG and Mitchell to join Brunson, Randle and the centers was the plan all along. And Hartenstein being so legit has given them extra reason to go all-in with this group potentially.
Fair. As DDV may not be that much of an upgrade as a defender than Mitchell?
So, in your opinion, should Donovan be the Knicks' main trade target going forward?
He now seems like destiny with OG in the fold?
Yeah I think he makes the most sense unless someone like Booker comes up unexpectedly. Mitchell is still young, pretty durable, he’s long enough to guard wings, and shoots well enough to not disrupt the spacing that has improved so much since swapping out Barrett for Anunoby. Whomever Knicks move Fournier for (brown, Brogdon etc) can be the primary contract outgoing. Maybe mitch possibly to a third team for a pick or prospect to Cleveland. And all of the picks needed. I was always conceded about the Mitchell fit and if they got him who would eventually play the wing that could balance it out. Now I don’t have that concern. Knicks bench scoring won’t be a concern either with Mitchell serving as the primary playmaker off the bench. But again this is all hypothetical just makes the most sense.
Honestly, if I had a raw choice of either Donovan or Booker, I'd go Donovan in a heartbeat but that's just me.
Most excellent thought on the addition of OG and how it has transformed the team enough. That had not even occurred to me.
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Not directly answering your question I know but It seems like the compromise is having him start but pulling him early to lead the bench. OG has completely changed the makeup of the team because I think the front office feels totally comfortable having the small backcourt because OG is such a game changer defensively.Seems like OG and Mitchell to join Brunson, Randle and the centers was the plan all along. And Hartenstein being so legit has given them extra reason to go all-in with this group potentially.
Fair. As DDV may not be that much of an upgrade as a defender than Mitchell?
So, in your opinion, should Donovan be the Knicks' main trade target going forward?
He now seems like destiny with OG in the fold?
Well, if you believe in conspiracy theories, Mitchel, Brunson and Randle’s contracts all expire at the same time. Knicks might be able to perform some cap wizardry to sign Mitchel as an FA and then resign Brunson and Randle.
Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Not directly answering your question I know but It seems like the compromise is having him start but pulling him early to lead the bench. OG has completely changed the makeup of the team because I think the front office feels totally comfortable having the small backcourt because OG is such a game changer defensively.Seems like OG and Mitchell to join Brunson, Randle and the centers was the plan all along. And Hartenstein being so legit has given them extra reason to go all-in with this group potentially.
Fair. As DDV may not be that much of an upgrade as a defender than Mitchell?
So, in your opinion, should Donovan be the Knicks' main trade target going forward?
He now seems like destiny with OG in the fold?
Well, if you believe in conspiracy theories, Mitchel, Brunson and Randle’s contracts all expire at the same time. Knicks might be able to perform some cap wizardry to sign Mitchel as an FA and then resign Brunson and Randle.
Knicks will be forever over cap, don’t think cap space will be an option.
IMHO, if Donovan really would like to come to the Knicks, it’ll come down to this: where along the spectrum of how spiteful and/or how adult the Cavs FO decides they want to handle the upcoming and looming Donovan opt out after the 2024-25 season. Insofar as I can tell - and to be sure, I’m only as informed as all of us - both they and Donovan are handling the PR side of things perfectly.
But the Cavs gave up a lot for him and are aimed at the playoffs right now. So now is an awkward time to trade him. If they were in Atlanta’s record range, things would be different.
But, and I’ve said this before, once this summer hits, Donovan’s team (and not Cleveland’s FO) will be in the drivers seat as to his next contract, both how much and (mostly) where, with the first decision that both Cleveland and Donovan’s team need to make is a binary destination choice between Cavs and not Cavs. After that, it’s about how much Cleveland wants to risk getting left at the alter of watching Donovan walk to someplace else and barely getting above a TPE level return for his exit with some scraps of players/picks that may or may not fit their liking. Siakam to Pacers fits that same operational unfolding of similar situations.
So between today and the end of this season, that is the time period the Cleveland FO has the most choices and the most leverage to deal with what to do next with Donovan.
Leon incoming to help out with that.
To me its about paying DM a truckload of money to play any position. If he had a great playoff run with the Cavs, hit the market. Of course I would have a change of heart. But I want to see it first.
GustavBahler wrote:I cant get past the fact that Mitchell has the skills of an elite wing, but shows very little clutch ability. On two good teams, where you couldnt blame the supporting cast.To me its about paying DM a truckload of money to play any position. If he had a great playoff run with the Cavs, hit the market. Of course I would have a change of heart. But I want to see it first.
I would say even if Mitchell lands here, it’s Brunson’s team and he’s earned the priority role in the clutch moments.
Knixkik wrote:Indirectly related, but I do wonder about DeRozan. Would he be open to coming off the bench for a playoff team as long as the minutes and touches are there, and would he be willing (or eligible?) for a 2-year extension at a slightly inflated price to be in that role ? If so, I wonder if the Knicks would trade Fournier, grimes and a first round pick for him. See how things go. Then this summer flip him and the necessary unprotected firsts for Mitchell if that becomes an option. Cavs can do worse than Garland, Strus, DeRozan, Mobley, and Allen plus getting most of their draft capital back and they would remain very competitive. If Mitchell does not become an option this summer, DeRozan can remain a super 6th man so the Knicks excellent starting lineup can stay intact and DeRozan receives all of the non-Randle and Brunson minutes and gets the freedom with guys like Hart, Anunoby, DDV etc staggered around him in the bench unit. A lot of what-ifs but it’s a way to improve the team now without sacrificing much and set up a future move for a player like Mitchell. It comes down to what DeRozan is willing to prioritize as he is an upcoming free agent and we would need to know ahead of time.
No, they would not, because that is a gross overpay for a guy who is on an expiring contract and will be 35yo next season and can’t shoot from distance for shit. And his shooting in general has dropped off and maybe that’s a hint at more bad shooting to come (or not but don’t risk it cause he is fucking old).
And if he walks at end of season cause Houston wants to give him a Dillon style contract, all you are left with are some dick jokes. Had to work that in.
martin wrote:Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Not directly answering your question I know but It seems like the compromise is having him start but pulling him early to lead the bench. OG has completely changed the makeup of the team because I think the front office feels totally comfortable having the small backcourt because OG is such a game changer defensively.Seems like OG and Mitchell to join Brunson, Randle and the centers was the plan all along. And Hartenstein being so legit has given them extra reason to go all-in with this group potentially.
Fair. As DDV may not be that much of an upgrade as a defender than Mitchell?
So, in your opinion, should Donovan be the Knicks' main trade target going forward?
He now seems like destiny with OG in the fold?
Well, if you believe in conspiracy theories, Mitchel, Brunson and Randle’s contracts all expire at the same time. Knicks might be able to perform some cap wizardry to sign Mitchel as an FA and then resign Brunson and Randle.
Knicks will be forever over cap, don’t think cap space will be an option.
IMHO, if Donovan really would like to come to the Knicks, it’ll come down to this: where along the spectrum of how spiteful and/or how adult the Cavs FO decides they want to handle the upcoming and looming Donovan opt out after the 2024-25 season. Insofar as I can tell - and to be sure, I’m only as informed as all of us - both they and Donovan are handling the PR side of things perfectly.
But the Cavs gave up a lot for him and are aimed at the playoffs right now. So now is an awkward time to trade him. If they were in Atlanta’s record range, things would be different.
But, and I’ve said this before, once this summer hits, Donovan’s team (and not Cleveland’s FO) will be in the drivers seat as to his next contract, both how much and (mostly) where, with the first decision that both Cleveland and Donovan’s team need to make is a binary destination choice between Cavs and not Cavs. After that, it’s about how much Cleveland wants to risk getting left at the alter of watching Donovan walk to someplace else and barely getting above a TPE level return for his exit with some scraps of players/picks that may or may not fit their liking. Siakam to Pacers fits that same operational unfolding of similar situations.
So between today and the end of this season, that is the time period the Cleveland FO has the most choices and the most leverage to deal with what to do next with Donovan.
Leon incoming to help out with that.
The TV deal expires in 24/25. If they don’t do smoothing the cap could make a historical jump. The estimate is around 171M
Knixkik wrote:Indirectly related, but I do wonder about DeRozan. Would he be open to coming off the bench for a playoff team as long as the minutes and touches are there, and would he be willing (or eligible?) for a 2-year extension at a slightly inflated price to be in that role ? If so, I wonder if the Knicks would trade Fournier, grimes and a first round pick for him. See how things go. Then this summer flip him and the necessary unprotected firsts for Mitchell if that becomes an option. Cavs can do worse than Garland, Strus, DeRozan, Mobley, and Allen plus getting most of their draft capital back and they would remain very competitive. If Mitchell does not become an option this summer, DeRozan can remain a super 6th man so the Knicks excellent starting lineup can stay intact and DeRozan receives all of the non-Randle and Brunson minutes and gets the freedom with guys like Hart, Anunoby, DDV etc staggered around him in the bench unit. A lot of what-ifs but it’s a way to improve the team now without sacrificing much and set up a future move for a player like Mitchell. It comes down to what DeRozan is willing to prioritize as he is an upcoming free agent and we would need to know ahead of time.
Thats a good question about Derozan. Talk about instant offense. I think the FO has more options when it comes to finding a quality 6th man, as opposed to this starting unit. Where chemistry has been a big reason for their success.
Leon can sell a potential 6th man on the 2nd unit being centered around them, which wasnt going to happen as a starter. The chemistry on the second unit starts with them.
It wont matter to some players, but it will to those who really like to get buckets. Which is what we need right now.
Knixkik wrote:GustavBahler wrote:I cant get past the fact that Mitchell has the skills of an elite wing, but shows very little clutch ability. On two good teams, where you couldnt blame the supporting cast.To me its about paying DM a truckload of money to play any position. If he had a great playoff run with the Cavs, hit the market. Of course I would have a change of heart. But I want to see it first.
I would say even if Mitchell lands here, it’s Brunson’s team and he’s earned the priority role in the clutch moments.
Agree
Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Not directly answering your question I know but It seems like the compromise is having him start but pulling him early to lead the bench. OG has completely changed the makeup of the team because I think the front office feels totally comfortable having the small backcourt because OG is such a game changer defensively.Seems like OG and Mitchell to join Brunson, Randle and the centers was the plan all along. And Hartenstein being so legit has given them extra reason to go all-in with this group potentially.
Fair. As DDV may not be that much of an upgrade as a defender than Mitchell?
So, in your opinion, should Donovan be the Knicks' main trade target going forward?
He now seems like destiny with OG in the fold?
Well, if you believe in conspiracy theories, Mitchel, Brunson and Randle’s contracts all expire at the same time. Knicks might be able to perform some cap wizardry to sign Mitchel as an FA and then resign Brunson and Randle.
Knicks will be forever over cap, don’t think cap space will be an option.
IMHO, if Donovan really would like to come to the Knicks, it’ll come down to this: where along the spectrum of how spiteful and/or how adult the Cavs FO decides they want to handle the upcoming and looming Donovan opt out after the 2024-25 season. Insofar as I can tell - and to be sure, I’m only as informed as all of us - both they and Donovan are handling the PR side of things perfectly.
But the Cavs gave up a lot for him and are aimed at the playoffs right now. So now is an awkward time to trade him. If they were in Atlanta’s record range, things would be different.
But, and I’ve said this before, once this summer hits, Donovan’s team (and not Cleveland’s FO) will be in the drivers seat as to his next contract, both how much and (mostly) where, with the first decision that both Cleveland and Donovan’s team need to make is a binary destination choice between Cavs and not Cavs. After that, it’s about how much Cleveland wants to risk getting left at the alter of watching Donovan walk to someplace else and barely getting above a TPE level return for his exit with some scraps of players/picks that may or may not fit their liking. Siakam to Pacers fits that same operational unfolding of similar situations.
So between today and the end of this season, that is the time period the Cleveland FO has the most choices and the most leverage to deal with what to do next with Donovan.
Leon incoming to help out with that.
The TV deal expires in 24/25. If they don’t do smoothing the cap could make a historical jump. The estimate is around 171M
Do the math and include iHart’s contract, draft picks and roster holds.
martin wrote:Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Not directly answering your question I know but It seems like the compromise is having him start but pulling him early to lead the bench. OG has completely changed the makeup of the team because I think the front office feels totally comfortable having the small backcourt because OG is such a game changer defensively.Seems like OG and Mitchell to join Brunson, Randle and the centers was the plan all along. And Hartenstein being so legit has given them extra reason to go all-in with this group potentially.
Fair. As DDV may not be that much of an upgrade as a defender than Mitchell?
So, in your opinion, should Donovan be the Knicks' main trade target going forward?
He now seems like destiny with OG in the fold?
Well, if you believe in conspiracy theories, Mitchel, Brunson and Randle’s contracts all expire at the same time. Knicks might be able to perform some cap wizardry to sign Mitchel as an FA and then resign Brunson and Randle.
Knicks will be forever over cap, don’t think cap space will be an option.
IMHO, if Donovan really would like to come to the Knicks, it’ll come down to this: where along the spectrum of how spiteful and/or how adult the Cavs FO decides they want to handle the upcoming and looming Donovan opt out after the 2024-25 season. Insofar as I can tell - and to be sure, I’m only as informed as all of us - both they and Donovan are handling the PR side of things perfectly.
But the Cavs gave up a lot for him and are aimed at the playoffs right now. So now is an awkward time to trade him. If they were in Atlanta’s record range, things would be different.
But, and I’ve said this before, once this summer hits, Donovan’s team (and not Cleveland’s FO) will be in the drivers seat as to his next contract, both how much and (mostly) where, with the first decision that both Cleveland and Donovan’s team need to make is a binary destination choice between Cavs and not Cavs. After that, it’s about how much Cleveland wants to risk getting left at the alter of watching Donovan walk to someplace else and barely getting above a TPE level return for his exit with some scraps of players/picks that may or may not fit their liking. Siakam to Pacers fits that same operational unfolding of similar situations.
So between today and the end of this season, that is the time period the Cleveland FO has the most choices and the most leverage to deal with what to do next with Donovan.
Leon incoming to help out with that.
The TV deal expires in 24/25. If they don’t do smoothing the cap could make a historical jump. The estimate is around 171M
Do the math and include iHart’s contract, draft picks and roster holds.
I remember them putting in cap smoothing into the new CBA to avoid another KD to GSW situation. So even if the cap jumps up it won't be that same situation again.
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Indirectly related, but I do wonder about DeRozan. Would he be open to coming off the bench for a playoff team as long as the minutes and touches are there, and would he be willing (or eligible?) for a 2-year extension at a slightly inflated price to be in that role ? If so, I wonder if the Knicks would trade Fournier, grimes and a first round pick for him. See how things go. Then this summer flip him and the necessary unprotected firsts for Mitchell if that becomes an option. Cavs can do worse than Garland, Strus, DeRozan, Mobley, and Allen plus getting most of their draft capital back and they would remain very competitive. If Mitchell does not become an option this summer, DeRozan can remain a super 6th man so the Knicks excellent starting lineup can stay intact and DeRozan receives all of the non-Randle and Brunson minutes and gets the freedom with guys like Hart, Anunoby, DDV etc staggered around him in the bench unit. A lot of what-ifs but it’s a way to improve the team now without sacrificing much and set up a future move for a player like Mitchell. It comes down to what DeRozan is willing to prioritize as he is an upcoming free agent and we would need to know ahead of time.No, they would not, because that is a gross overpay for a guy who is on an expiring contract and will be 35yo next season and can’t shoot from distance for shit. And his shooting in general has dropped off and maybe that’s a hint at more bad shooting to come (or not but don’t risk it cause he is fucking old).
And if he walks at end of season cause Houston wants to give him a Dillon style contract, all you are left with are some dick jokes. Had to work that in.
I’m saying it would have to be contingent on an extension. No trade unless that is sorted out. I don’t consider Fournier, grimes and one of our non-Knicks picks an overpay. He’s still a really good player.
Clean wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Rookie wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Not directly answering your question I know but It seems like the compromise is having him start but pulling him early to lead the bench. OG has completely changed the makeup of the team because I think the front office feels totally comfortable having the small backcourt because OG is such a game changer defensively.Seems like OG and Mitchell to join Brunson, Randle and the centers was the plan all along. And Hartenstein being so legit has given them extra reason to go all-in with this group potentially.
Fair. As DDV may not be that much of an upgrade as a defender than Mitchell?
So, in your opinion, should Donovan be the Knicks' main trade target going forward?
He now seems like destiny with OG in the fold?
Well, if you believe in conspiracy theories, Mitchel, Brunson and Randle’s contracts all expire at the same time. Knicks might be able to perform some cap wizardry to sign Mitchel as an FA and then resign Brunson and Randle.
Knicks will be forever over cap, don’t think cap space will be an option.
IMHO, if Donovan really would like to come to the Knicks, it’ll come down to this: where along the spectrum of how spiteful and/or how adult the Cavs FO decides they want to handle the upcoming and looming Donovan opt out after the 2024-25 season. Insofar as I can tell - and to be sure, I’m only as informed as all of us - both they and Donovan are handling the PR side of things perfectly.
But the Cavs gave up a lot for him and are aimed at the playoffs right now. So now is an awkward time to trade him. If they were in Atlanta’s record range, things would be different.
But, and I’ve said this before, once this summer hits, Donovan’s team (and not Cleveland’s FO) will be in the drivers seat as to his next contract, both how much and (mostly) where, with the first decision that both Cleveland and Donovan’s team need to make is a binary destination choice between Cavs and not Cavs. After that, it’s about how much Cleveland wants to risk getting left at the alter of watching Donovan walk to someplace else and barely getting above a TPE level return for his exit with some scraps of players/picks that may or may not fit their liking. Siakam to Pacers fits that same operational unfolding of similar situations.
So between today and the end of this season, that is the time period the Cleveland FO has the most choices and the most leverage to deal with what to do next with Donovan.
Leon incoming to help out with that.
The TV deal expires in 24/25. If they don’t do smoothing the cap could make a historical jump. The estimate is around 171M
Do the math and include iHart’s contract, draft picks and roster holds.
I remember them putting in cap smoothing into the new CBA to avoid another KD to GSW situation. So even if the cap jumps up it won't be that same situation again.
Correctamungo
Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:Indirectly related, but I do wonder about DeRozan. Would he be open to coming off the bench for a playoff team as long as the minutes and touches are there, and would he be willing (or eligible?) for a 2-year extension at a slightly inflated price to be in that role ? If so, I wonder if the Knicks would trade Fournier, grimes and a first round pick for him. See how things go. Then this summer flip him and the necessary unprotected firsts for Mitchell if that becomes an option. Cavs can do worse than Garland, Strus, DeRozan, Mobley, and Allen plus getting most of their draft capital back and they would remain very competitive. If Mitchell does not become an option this summer, DeRozan can remain a super 6th man so the Knicks excellent starting lineup can stay intact and DeRozan receives all of the non-Randle and Brunson minutes and gets the freedom with guys like Hart, Anunoby, DDV etc staggered around him in the bench unit. A lot of what-ifs but it’s a way to improve the team now without sacrificing much and set up a future move for a player like Mitchell. It comes down to what DeRozan is willing to prioritize as he is an upcoming free agent and we would need to know ahead of time.No, they would not, because that is a gross overpay for a guy who is on an expiring contract and will be 35yo next season and can’t shoot from distance for shit. And his shooting in general has dropped off and maybe that’s a hint at more bad shooting to come (or not but don’t risk it cause he is fucking old).
And if he walks at end of season cause Houston wants to give him a Dillon style contract, all you are left with are some dick jokes. Had to work that in.
I’m saying it would have to be contingent on an extension. No trade unless that is sorted out. I don’t consider Fournier, grimes and one of our non-Knicks picks an overpay. He’s still a really good player.
So if you were given a handshake deal of say 3 years at $15M per but some team gave you a FFV level deal of 3 years at $25M per…
What do you think Derozan’s wife AND his side chick and her hot bisexual and oddly flexible gf would tell him to do? Cause Marcus Morris made that same decision to burn the Spurs and go to Knicks and to the great great pleasure of turning into IQ and then OG.
Do you think Leon is dumb enough to leave his flank that wide open and put the Knicks in that position versus other options?