Knicks · Villanova Knicks Complete: NY lands Mikal (page 14)

EwingPSD wrote:

firefly wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I think the idea we overpaid is kind of off base. If someone traded a really good young player and 3 firsts nobody would blink. Knicks traded a bunch of late picks and a potentially iffy one 7 years from now and gave up no players at all. Also paid the Hudson River tax. Still not a massive overpay.

And another thing, a bunch of late firsts have FAR less value than even just one lottery pick.

Come on. The Knicks overpaid based on market value. They just don't care and they shouldn't. This often happens on teams trying to go from really good to great. For example, the Bucks overpaid for Jrue based on market value. They also went and won a title. The Sixers thought Tobias Harries was important to their title hopes so they overpaid to retain him. Both teams knew they were overpaying. It doesn't look good for Philly because it didn't work but unless you want to be the grit and grind Griz or the Mark Price Cavs it is a risk teams often have to take to get to the top.

I guess I just don't believe they overpaid at all. I think the market for picks in general is grossly inflated. Selling potential for actual high-level play has always been a clever trick by poor teams to try and trade for an actual good player.

The chances of a single pick developing into a servicable player is low.
Into a servicable player who impacts play immediately is even lower.
Into a player who plays better than Mikal Bridges immediately is much lower.
Having 5 chances to hit that jackpot is of course better than having just one chance, but it would not be overpaying to say we have traded for a player in exchange for the CHANCE of drafting that player at some stage in the next 7 years.

The chances of more than one of those picks in the next 7 years hitting those odds is so low as to be immaterial. Can you think of one example where a trade of picks for a high-level player turned into more than one high-level player? They are very very very rare circumstances.

The only reason you can possibly say it was an over pay is because bridges was about to force his way to us which would have saved us a 1st or 2. But, you have to do the deal without that knowledge.

REPORT: “There’s also an outside chance the Knicks make a run at Andre Drummond.”

(via @MikeAScotto
, https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-intel-whats-next-for-knicks-and-nets-after-mikal-bridges-trade/)

There we go. Go for it Leon.

jaydh wrote:The only reason you can possibly say it was an over pay is because bridges was about to force his way to us which would have saved us a 1st or 2. But, you have to do the deal without that knowledge.

He did force his way, just not on the record

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About OG once he rejected the 20 million leon rose said bye to og Rose was playing chess og was playing chutes and ladders. Now lets see og come back down to earth if he wants to stay with the Knicks. This is one of the best trades since debusherre IMHO 4 college champs on the same team, in my 57 years following the NBA I dont thing that was ever done,correct me if im wrong

https://www.twitter.com/jcmacrinba/statu...

I don’t got the Insider subscription for the whole article but this seems to start out as a good way to interpret things to me.

These audacious trades keep happening -- teams trading three, four, five first-round picks for one player, the latest being the New York Knicks finally cashing in their diligently acquired stockpile in exchange for a 27-year-old crosstown rival who has made precisely zero All-Star games in (yup) Villanova University champion alumnus Mikal Bridges.

We didn't use to see these kinds of almost-all-in megadeals. In July 2022, after pick-heavy deals for Dejounte Murray (a onetime All-Star, and an injury replacement at that) and Rudy Gobert, research from both Basketball Reference and ESPN's Kevin Pelton found there had been seven trades in the preceding decade involving one team dealing away at least three future first-round picks -- and that those seven accounted for one more such trade than had occurred in the entirety of NBA history from the ABA-NBA merger through 2012.

There have, remarkably, been four more in the two years since: the Phoenix Suns deal for Kevin Durant; the Cleveland Cavaliers acquisition of Donovan Mitchell; the Indiana Pacers nabbing Pascal Siakam; and the Knicks swapping five first-round picks -- their own unprotected picks in 2025, 2027, 2029, and 2031, plus a protected 2025 first-rounder from the Milwaukee Bucks -- for Bridges, according to ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski.

That is obviously a ton for Bridges, an overpay if you consider the trade in a vacuum -- which is not quite the right way to consider it. The Knicks gave up as many first-round picks for Bridges as the Wolves did for Gobert. They gave the Nets one more pick than Brooklyn received from Phoenix for Durant. It is, if you really go apples to oranges, wildly more than the Boston Celtics gave up for Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, or Kristaps Porzingis.

The history of these all-in trades suggests teams underestimate the downside risk of the later outbound picks, and that the deals don't pay off as often as you'd expect if the stated goal is a championship or even a Finals appearance. That is the reasonable goal now for the Knicks, presuming they re-sign OG Anunoby -- which remains their plan, sources told ESPN. (If they fail, the entire perception of this trade changes.)

Garrett2010PSD wrote:REPORT: “There’s also an outside chance the Knicks make a run at Andre Drummond.”

(via @MikeAScotto
, https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-intel-whats-next-for-knicks-and-nets-after-mikal-bridges-trade/)

There we go. Go for it Leon.

Holy crud, Drummond is only 30 years old. I thought he was OLD

martin wrote:https://www.twitter.com/jcmacrinba/statu...

I don’t got the Insider subscription for the whole article but this seems to start out as a good way to interpret things to me.

These audacious trades keep happening -- teams trading three, four, five first-round picks for one player, the latest being the New York Knicks finally cashing in their diligently acquired stockpile in exchange for a 27-year-old crosstown rival who has made precisely zero All-Star games in (yup) Villanova University champion alumnus Mikal Bridges.

We didn't use to see these kinds of almost-all-in megadeals. In July 2022, after pick-heavy deals for Dejounte Murray (a onetime All-Star, and an injury replacement at that) and Rudy Gobert, research from both Basketball Reference and ESPN's Kevin Pelton found there had been seven trades in the preceding decade involving one team dealing away at least three future first-round picks -- and that those seven accounted for one more such trade than had occurred in the entirety of NBA history from the ABA-NBA merger through 2012.

There have, remarkably, been four more in the two years since: the Phoenix Suns deal for Kevin Durant; the Cleveland Cavaliers acquisition of Donovan Mitchell; the Indiana Pacers nabbing Pascal Siakam; and the Knicks swapping five first-round picks -- their own unprotected picks in 2025, 2027, 2029, and 2031, plus a protected 2025 first-rounder from the Milwaukee Bucks -- for Bridges, according to ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski.

That is obviously a ton for Bridges, an overpay if you consider the trade in a vacuum -- which is not quite the right way to consider it. The Knicks gave up as many first-round picks for Bridges as the Wolves did for Gobert. They gave the Nets one more pick than Brooklyn received from Phoenix for Durant. It is, if you really go apples to oranges, wildly more than the Boston Celtics gave up for Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, or Kristaps Porzingis.

The history of these all-in trades suggests teams underestimate the downside risk of the later outbound picks, and that the deals don't pay off as often as you'd expect if the stated goal is a championship or even a Finals appearance. That is the reasonable goal now for the Knicks, presuming they re-sign OG Anunoby -- which remains their plan, sources told ESPN. (If they fail, the entire perception of this trade changes.)

One forgets Lauri and Sexton were in the deal for DM.
Rudy in year two go them to conf finals.
And you can get picks back when you trade out for picks.
They are currancy.
Media freaks out on these big deals but they make sense sometimes.
PHX got relevant despit the lack of success. They can trade out and get picks back like nets did.
There is a buisness side to consider also. Money and brand recognition.
Knicks can trade Brunson or Randle inside of 3 years and likely get a nice package back. They came at relatively no cost.
DDV came for free. THink we could not get a mid 1st for him on this contract???
Deuce is 23 and also could be moved for a pick.
ROkas? Maybe he don’t step stateside or maybe he is Dragic like. We don’t know. ITs why the games are played!!!!

Yes, Mikal can blow out an ACL, and its a shit show for a while.

A roster of OG, Josh, and Mikal is not like other teams. These are dogs, high efficient players that are not high volume shooter starphuckers. They get shit done. Man I hope we return iHart. The character of these guys might be special in the aggregate.

Josh was journeyman prior. OG was well regarded but my goodness look what he glued together without putting up big points!
Keep the Lamelo Ball’s, Zach Lavine, and other empty calarie players away! They might sell sneakers, but wins matter.
Thibian era is do shit when your not scoring or sit.

According to several NBA executives who spoke with HoopsHype, Day'Ron Sharpe could garner multiple second-round draft picks.

Per @MikeAScotto

I know a team that is simply loaded with second round picks...

Rookie wrote:

Garrett2010PSD wrote:REPORT: “There’s also an outside chance the Knicks make a run at Andre Drummond.”

(via @MikeAScotto
, https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-intel-whats-next-for-knicks-and-nets-after-mikal-bridges-trade/)

There we go. Go for it Leon.

Holy crud, Drummond is only 30 years old. I thought he was OLD

It does seem like he has been around forever.

firefly wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

firefly wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I think the idea we overpaid is kind of off base. If someone traded a really good young player and 3 firsts nobody would blink. Knicks traded a bunch of late picks and a potentially iffy one 7 years from now and gave up no players at all. Also paid the Hudson River tax. Still not a massive overpay.

And another thing, a bunch of late firsts have FAR less value than even just one lottery pick.

Come on. The Knicks overpaid based on market value. They just don't care and they shouldn't. This often happens on teams trying to go from really good to great. For example, the Bucks overpaid for Jrue based on market value. They also went and won a title. The Sixers thought Tobias Harries was important to their title hopes so they overpaid to retain him. Both teams knew they were overpaying. It doesn't look good for Philly because it didn't work but unless you want to be the grit and grind Griz or the Mark Price Cavs it is a risk teams often have to take to get to the top.

I guess I just don't believe they overpaid at all. I think the market for picks in general is grossly inflated. Selling potential for actual high-level play has always been a clever trick by poor teams to try and trade for an actual good player.

The chances of a single pick developing into a servicable player is low.
Into a servicable player who impacts play immediately is even lower.
Into a player who plays better than Mikal Bridges immediately is much lower.
Having 5 chances to hit that jackpot is of course better than having just one chance, but it would not be overpaying to say we have traded for a player in exchange for the CHANCE of drafting that player at some stage in the next 7 years.

The chances of more than one of those picks in the next 7 years hitting those odds is so low as to be immaterial. Can you think of one example where a trade of picks for a high-level player turned into more than one high-level player? They are very very very rare circumstances.

I think it’s fair to say that the Knicks fair market value is different than what other teams would be.

Knicks absolutely paid a Nets trade tax. They also paid the well publicized Villanova tax. I’d go one step further to say that the Knicks paid for a surplus chemistry tax on top of the Villanova tax (i.e. the Knicks KNOW how well the chemistry multiplier will be for them in the intangibles department and that it would trickle to perhaps to other things like moving the Brunson extension numbers). Knicks also did not give up a single core piece tax.

Other teams don’t get those benefits as well as the Knicks would and the Nets knew it, so the market price is just different. And it could be a fair market price.

Looks like Indiana is desperately working the phones trying to match Knicks moves and keep pace. LMAO F/U Pacers 🤣😁🤣

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martin wrote:

jaydh wrote:The only reason you can possibly say it was an over pay is because bridges was about to force his way to us which would have saved us a 1st or 2. But, you have to do the deal without that knowledge.

He did force his way, just not on the record

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martin wrote:

jaydh wrote:The only reason you can possibly say it was an over pay is because bridges was about to force his way to us which would have saved us a 1st or 2. But, you have to do the deal without that knowledge.

He did force his way, just not on the record

I meant it would have gone public

EwingPSD wrote:

firefly wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I think the idea we overpaid is kind of off base. If someone traded a really good young player and 3 firsts nobody would blink. Knicks traded a bunch of late picks and a potentially iffy one 7 years from now and gave up no players at all. Also paid the Hudson River tax. Still not a massive overpay.

And another thing, a bunch of late firsts have FAR less value than even just one lottery pick.

Come on. The Knicks overpaid based on market value. They just don't care and they shouldn't. This often happens on teams trying to go from really good to great. For example, the Bucks overpaid for Jrue based on market value. They also went and won a title. The Sixers thought Tobias Harries was important to their title hopes so they overpaid to retain him. Both teams knew they were overpaying. It doesn't look good for Philly because it didn't work but unless you want to be the grit and grind Griz or the Mark Price Cavs it is a risk teams often have to take to get to the top.

I think the 2031 pick makes it a slight overpay in a vaccum. If that wasn’t included it would be an underpay given we gave them zero prospects and mainly picks that are close to guaranteed to be in the 20-30 range.

Mikal’s value is about the same as OG which is near max player level and he’s on a bargain deal.

No one would blink if it were 3 firsts and a great prospect or a couple good young players. 4 firsts with no prospects was probably the even value and the 5th we paid was the Hudson River tax in my eyes.

DLeethal wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

firefly wrote:

DLeethal wrote:I think the idea we overpaid is kind of off base. If someone traded a really good young player and 3 firsts nobody would blink. Knicks traded a bunch of late picks and a potentially iffy one 7 years from now and gave up no players at all. Also paid the Hudson River tax. Still not a massive overpay.

And another thing, a bunch of late firsts have FAR less value than even just one lottery pick.

Come on. The Knicks overpaid based on market value. They just don't care and they shouldn't. This often happens on teams trying to go from really good to great. For example, the Bucks overpaid for Jrue based on market value. They also went and won a title. The Sixers thought Tobias Harries was important to their title hopes so they overpaid to retain him. Both teams knew they were overpaying. It doesn't look good for Philly because it didn't work but unless you want to be the grit and grind Griz or the Mark Price Cavs it is a risk teams often have to take to get to the top.

I think the 2031 pick makes it a slight overpay. If that wasn’t included it would be an underpay given we gave them zero prospects and mainly picks that are close to guaranteed to be in the 20-30 range.

Mikal’s value is about the same as OG which is near max player level and he’s on a bargain deal.

No one would blink if it were 3 firsts and a great prospect or a couple good young players. 4 firsts with no prospects was probably the even value and the 5th we paid was the Hudson River tax in my eyes.

Pretty spot on analysis. If OG resigns, I honestly don't care about the picks.

Panos wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:This is a GREAT trade!

OG was a great fit for the Knicks but paying 35-40 million for an oft injured, 3rd option, would have been insane.

The picks, at the very least the first 2, would be high FRP.

Love this trade for the Knicks.

Now, if the Knicks are indeed moving on from OG, lets all hope he doesn't land in Philly

No way you let OG walk. This move was made putting all the chips on the table. Letting OG walk after the price you just paid for Mikal with down the line draft picks would be insane. You pay OG his $40mil, get the chip or 2, then trade him when Mikal & Randle extensions start to kick in.

why would you trade OG instead of just letting Randle walk who will be 32 then and declining.

I think if Brunson signs the cheaper extension now, which I think he will, we won't have any issue keeping this team together.

The only player who needs to take LESS is OG Anunoby.

Asking Brunson to take a discount just because they got an old college teammate to run with his is asinine.

Asking a two time All-NBA player and multiple All-Star to take a discount, is asinine.

We go after players like Melo because we believe all he cared about was money but for some odd reason, OG gets a pass.
(if all rumors are true)

OG was a great fit for the Knicks and Bridges will be JUST AS GOOD. I think some of us are focusing too much on these draft picks. Draft picks are a crap shoot (See RJ, Quickley, Grimes, Toppin) and the chances of getting a player of Bridges caliber are slim to none.

OG is getting paid. He's not giving a discount. He's a high impact player who gets hurt alot. He's 26. This is the time he's getting paid and that's fine. I do believe Randle/Brunson will both take team friendlier deal but time will tell.

Get ready for 5/$200mm for OG. It's fine.

My god what rotation Leon has handed to Thibs. We have a legit multi-year window for a title here with nobody aging out. The only concern is paying guys in the future and how that plays out. Lovely problem to have.

We will see how center plays out. IHart's best thing is availability. He can always play. I think his passing isnt missed w/ Randle coming back and being a primary ball handler.

Sorry at those numbers for OG, I pass.
You are going to pay your 3rd or arguably 4th (Bridges 3rd?) best player $40M per year? He's going to pull $10M more than All-NBA Randle and Superstar MVP candidate Brunson? I just don't see it. This team is a success because players have bought in to team-first possibility of growing into a champion, and if OG thinks $30M/year is not enough for him, I don't think there is room for that. Sorry.

dont be sorry, Leon doesnt care about your opinion

Honestly tho imagine you didnt want to pay OG $40, offered him $30 and he went to Phili for $40. Now you got Embiid/Maxey/OG + part in your division.

I have a hard time getting my head around what bothers people about "overpaying" unless its clearly impeding roster building. This is literally the guy you need to make this thing go from good to elite.

Is there an argument that OG at that price somehow is a negative? His teammates WANT him to get paid. Did you watch the playoffs? I mean he got hurt but my god was he $40mm a year valuable? Hell yeah he was

fishmike wrote:

Panos wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:This is a GREAT trade!

OG was a great fit for the Knicks but paying 35-40 million for an oft injured, 3rd option, would have been insane.

The picks, at the very least the first 2, would be high FRP.

Love this trade for the Knicks.

Now, if the Knicks are indeed moving on from OG, lets all hope he doesn't land in Philly

No way you let OG walk. This move was made putting all the chips on the table. Letting OG walk after the price you just paid for Mikal with down the line draft picks would be insane. You pay OG his $40mil, get the chip or 2, then trade him when Mikal & Randle extensions start to kick in.

why would you trade OG instead of just letting Randle walk who will be 32 then and declining.

I think if Brunson signs the cheaper extension now, which I think he will, we won't have any issue keeping this team together.

The only player who needs to take LESS is OG Anunoby.

Asking Brunson to take a discount just because they got an old college teammate to run with his is asinine.

Asking a two time All-NBA player and multiple All-Star to take a discount, is asinine.

We go after players like Melo because we believe all he cared about was money but for some odd reason, OG gets a pass.
(if all rumors are true)

OG was a great fit for the Knicks and Bridges will be JUST AS GOOD. I think some of us are focusing too much on these draft picks. Draft picks are a crap shoot (See RJ, Quickley, Grimes, Toppin) and the chances of getting a player of Bridges caliber are slim to none.

OG is getting paid. He's not giving a discount. He's a high impact player who gets hurt alot. He's 26. This is the time he's getting paid and that's fine. I do believe Randle/Brunson will both take team friendlier deal but time will tell.

Get ready for 5/$200mm for OG. It's fine.

My god what rotation Leon has handed to Thibs. We have a legit multi-year window for a title here with nobody aging out. The only concern is paying guys in the future and how that plays out. Lovely problem to have.

We will see how center plays out. IHart's best thing is availability. He can always play. I think his passing isnt missed w/ Randle coming back and being a primary ball handler.

Sorry at those numbers for OG, I pass.
You are going to pay your 3rd or arguably 4th (Bridges 3rd?) best player $40M per year? He's going to pull $10M more than All-NBA Randle and Superstar MVP candidate Brunson? I just don't see it. This team is a success because players have bought in to team-first possibility of growing into a champion, and if OG thinks $30M/year is not enough for him, I don't think there is room for that. Sorry.

dont be sorry, Leon doesnt care about your opinion

Honestly tho imagine you didnt want to pay OG $40, offered him $30 and he went to Phili for $40. Now you got Embiid/Maxey/OG + part in your division.

I have a hard time getting my head around what bothers people about "overpaying" unless its clearly impeding roster building. This is literally the guy you need to make this thing go from good to elite.

Is there an argument that OG at that price somehow is a negative? His teammates WANT him to get paid. Did you watch the playoffs? I mean he got hurt but my god was he $40mm a year valuable? Hell yeah he was

Also keep in mind we had a test drive. We know how he has impacted winning. No speculation there. He complements the team extremely well. I'd like to think with our depth of quality players they will somehow stay healthier.