NYStateOfMind wrote:Talent-wise, this is by far the most talented starting 5 for our Knicks since the 70s.
It’s between this team and the ‘92 team with Ewing, Mark Jackson, X-Man, and Oak
Not sure how I feel about this. KAT is great but will miss Donte. I really hope this works out. It’s a huge gamble.
BigDaddyG wrote:Philc1 wrote:jaydh wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:jaydh wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Rookie wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:fishmike wrote:Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate. Oh well.
Yeah I hate from a culture and fit standpoint. Towns isn't really center. They're planning to give up too much for what's essentially a swap of two flawed forwards.
I guess you could play Towns and Precious together. Towns spreads the floor on one end and gives you rim protection and rebounding on the other so those two theoretically should fit. The flexibility with Towns gives you more mix and match options. I’m starting to like the trade. He’s a year younger than Randle and has 3 years until his player option. Hello 2nd apron here we come atleast for now
Towns averaged .7 blocks a game last year. 
how did that compare to randle?
That's not really the point. I'm pushing back on the idea that Towns solves the teams center issues. He doesn't really defend the rim.
He's a PF and will be when Mitch returns. He can prob fill in better at C than Randle would have.
KAT gives us sooooooo much flexibility. He can play C with OG and Marcus Morris at PF. He can play the 4 with Mitch and Sims.
Marcus Morris is shot and there's a decent chance he won't make the team. We're probably looking at Precious manning the dunkers spot and playing the bigger offensive threat.
Morris shot over 40% from 3 last season
EwingsGlass wrote:<snip>KAT fits positionally better and has better shooting metrics and better defensive stats. Same or worse attitude. Worse health history. It’s the right move, though I am sad it cost DDV and picks. He’s like a top 5 possible choices for C in a 4-1 offense or a 5 out.
Sad about DDV, but I approve.
Amazing how quickly Knick fans fell in love with DiVo! He was just roster filler until we made the RJ/Quickley for OG/Precious trade, then he really took off from there and was an 18-20ppg type of scorer the rest of the way. Shades of Starks.
I think the weird part is that we acquired Bridges without losing any players, and he's widely considered a better all-around player than DDV at the same position, which again would have pushed him back into that roster filler sort of role.
fishmike wrote:Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate. Oh well.
Same...I will say this, though, Thibs coached Towns 2 or 3 seasons. I can't believe, if the trade goes through, that he didn't have to sign off on it before it happened. If you trust Thibs, you have to give the brass the benefit of the doubt on the acquisition.
My immediate reaction wasn't good, though. No "Yeah! We got our final piece!" reaction.
Haynes snitched but no one believed him. It also looks like Randle wanted out.
Philc1 wrote:NYStateOfMind wrote:Talent-wise, this is by far the most talented starting 5 for our Knicks since the 70s.
It’s between this team and the ‘92 team with Ewing, Mark Jackson, X-Man, and Oak
Ill take Reed, Monroe, Debusschere, Lucas, Frazier, Bill Bradley, Phil Jackson,Dean Meminger
BigDaddyG wrote:technomaster wrote:I like this trade. Sure, it hurts to lose Randle and DiVincenzo, but I think it reshapes our roster in mostly positive ways.Towns: On offense, he does everything Hartenstein did - and better almost across the board. He does a great job as a high post distributor and allows us to continue that fluid style of play. He's also a legit 3pt shooter (39.8% for his career!) and give us a 3pt shooting center for the first time in Knicks history.
On defense, while he's not an elite shot blocking threat, he's a 7 footer and gives us a LOT more length than Randle would as a fill-in center. And his team tends to play better with him on the floor. His +/- was a whopping +321 last season, with a PER of 23.8. Wow.
So now some rationalizations:
* We badly needed a proven starting center. Mitch won't be in true game shape until after the all star break, and recent whispers said that Randle wasn't going to be ready for the start of the season, so we were getting into risky territory. Coupled with the fact that both of those players were unavailable for much of the 2nd of the season and playoffs with their annual late season injuries, it's quite frankly good business to plug in this hole on an otherwise championship-quality roster
* We needed to balance the logjam at swingman. The Bridges trade, while quite excellent, set us up with a messy log jam of swingman-sized talent, with Hart and DiVincenzo likely playing reserve minutes in spite of their starter-quality talent. They certain proved their capabilities during the playoffs, showing off what they could do when given 40mpg! Then there's the emerging McBride and highly touted rookie Kolek, both of whom looked slated for borderline garbage time/change of pace roles. DiVincenzo opens up 20-25 mins of playing time. Let's just say that we had too much of a luxury of talent off the bench, and we've traded that for a starter.
* When healthy, we'll be a match up nightmare - With KAT as our starter, I anticipate a healthy starting lineup including KAT/Hart/OG/Bridges/Brunson, and Mitch moving to the bench. This gives us a mix of shooters, defenders, fundamental ball movers, cutters, and passers in our best lineup. We also have the option to play 2 7 footers at the same time.
My main thing is that Wolves teams with KAT as the starting center have been bad defensively. How bad? They mortgaged their future for Gobert. So I don't see the idea of playing KAT at center as positive. The team lost depth and Thibs has somethings to figure out defensively. Towns is a great shooter. But I feel it won't make up for the loss of Randle's inside physicality and Donte's prolific three points shooting. Time will tell and I hope I'm wrong.
Gobert is an absolute force - he's so good that he can practically anchor a defense all by himself and make a team better just by being there.
KAT... let's just say he doesn't have quite the same defensive instincts. But that's okay. We need to save him as a critical offensive-first piece along with Brunson.
A HUGE difference with the Knicks is that KAT will play alongside 2 or 3 elite defenders almost every minute he's on the floor, so he'll never have to feel the pressure of being the anchor. Bridges/OG have All-D Team accolades; Hart has his elite motor and could easily be voted on a team; McBride is a beast when given minutes; Mitch when healthy is a DPOTY candidate; heck, Precious is pretty nasty when he's locked in! By the time a player gets to the rim, he'll have already run the gauntlet to get there.
While it hurts to lose a good player like DDV, I don't really feel like we lost depth because of it: His loss is counteracted by the fact we gained Bridges earlier this summer, making DDV a bit redundant. Plus if Kolek is as good as advertised, we still have another heady player that can shoot.
Let's remember that prior to the OG trade, Hart/DDV were only getting 15-20mpg and barely looked like rotation players - Hart was particularly disappointing given how well he finished the prior season. But give them starter minutes, and those two were unbelievable. The addition of Bridges was bound to hurt the production of a few players, so I think everyone is going to be better as a result of the minutes that have been freed up.
Come the trade deadline, if depth is a problem, we can acquire Alec Burks again. :)
That is why it says since the 70s.
tomlin8 wrote:Philc1 wrote:NYStateOfMind wrote:Talent-wise, this is by far the most talented starting 5 for our Knicks since the 70s.
It’s between this team and the ‘92 team with Ewing, Mark Jackson, X-Man, and Oak
Ill take Reed, Monroe, Debusschere, Lucas, Frazier, Bill Bradley, Phil Jackson,Dean Meminger
Philc1 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Philc1 wrote:jaydh wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:jaydh wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Rookie wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:fishmike wrote:Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate. Oh well.
Yeah I hate from a culture and fit standpoint. Towns isn't really center. They're planning to give up too much for what's essentially a swap of two flawed forwards.
I guess you could play Towns and Precious together. Towns spreads the floor on one end and gives you rim protection and rebounding on the other so those two theoretically should fit. The flexibility with Towns gives you more mix and match options. I’m starting to like the trade. He’s a year younger than Randle and has 3 years until his player option. Hello 2nd apron here we come atleast for now
Towns averaged .7 blocks a game last year.
how did that compare to randle?
That's not really the point. I'm pushing back on the idea that Towns solves the teams center issues. He doesn't really defend the rim.
He's a PF and will be when Mitch returns. He can prob fill in better at C than Randle would have.
KAT gives us sooooooo much flexibility. He can play C with OG and Marcus Morris at PF. He can play the 4 with Mitch and Sims.
Marcus Morris is shot and there's a decent chance he won't make the team. We're probably looking at Precious manning the dunkers spot and playing the bigger offensive threat.
Morris shot over 40% from 3 last season
You mean on all 29 threes he took. 😱
technomaster wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:technomaster wrote:I like this trade. Sure, it hurts to lose Randle and DiVincenzo, but I think it reshapes our roster in mostly positive ways.Towns: On offense, he does everything Hartenstein did - and better almost across the board. He does a great job as a high post distributor and allows us to continue that fluid style of play. He's also a legit 3pt shooter (39.8% for his career!) and give us a 3pt shooting center for the first time in Knicks history.
On defense, while he's not an elite shot blocking threat, he's a 7 footer and gives us a LOT more length than Randle would as a fill-in center. And his team tends to play better with him on the floor. His +/- was a whopping +321 last season, with a PER of 23.8. Wow.
So now some rationalizations:
* We badly needed a proven starting center. Mitch won't be in true game shape until after the all star break, and recent whispers said that Randle wasn't going to be ready for the start of the season, so we were getting into risky territory. Coupled with the fact that both of those players were unavailable for much of the 2nd of the season and playoffs with their annual late season injuries, it's quite frankly good business to plug in this hole on an otherwise championship-quality roster
* We needed to balance the logjam at swingman. The Bridges trade, while quite excellent, set us up with a messy log jam of swingman-sized talent, with Hart and DiVincenzo likely playing reserve minutes in spite of their starter-quality talent. They certain proved their capabilities during the playoffs, showing off what they could do when given 40mpg! Then there's the emerging McBride and highly touted rookie Kolek, both of whom looked slated for borderline garbage time/change of pace roles. DiVincenzo opens up 20-25 mins of playing time. Let's just say that we had too much of a luxury of talent off the bench, and we've traded that for a starter.
* When healthy, we'll be a match up nightmare - With KAT as our starter, I anticipate a healthy starting lineup including KAT/Hart/OG/Bridges/Brunson, and Mitch moving to the bench. This gives us a mix of shooters, defenders, fundamental ball movers, cutters, and passers in our best lineup. We also have the option to play 2 7 footers at the same time.
My main thing is that Wolves teams with KAT as the starting center have been bad defensively. How bad? They mortgaged their future for Gobert. So I don't see the idea of playing KAT at center as positive. The team lost depth and Thibs has somethings to figure out defensively. Towns is a great shooter. But I feel it won't make up for the loss of Randle's inside physicality and Donte's prolific three points shooting. Time will tell and I hope I'm wrong.
While it hurts to lose a good player like DDV, I don't really feel like we lost depth because of it: His loss is counteracted by the fact we gained Bridges earlier this summer, making DDV a bit redundant. Plus if Kolek is as good as advertised, we still have another heady player that can shoot.
Donte arguably played like a top 15 SG when he started for us, not to mention his rebounding, his ability to guard and occasionally handle ball handling duties. That, plus the loss of an All NBA player is huge. I have to disagree and say the depth took a hit. Also, I have to point out that the only time KAT played acceptable defense in his career is when he was side by side with Gobert. I'm in no way sold on KAT as a drop center who will deter guys from driving inside. Him paired with Mitch might have me thinking different. But, I think how everyone feels about this trade depends on how you feel about Towns as a center. I don't see it. Thibs already coached him in Minnesota and he was an underwhelming, and I'm being kind, defensive center. I hope he proves me wrong, but I've seen enough to be worried.
As a non-Randle fan I was good with the trade until I read about DDV. Yes we can replace shooting but like IHart - there was a chemistry that formed last season that was pretty impressive and easy to root behind. We lost a little grit and while we still have a lot - can never have too much IMO. On the plus side, JR was coming off a shoulder injury and didn't really play much 2nd half when we seemed to find our identity last season. So while I'm not sure Thibs won't have an aneurysm coaching KAT again - it does make us more offensively potent and gives us better matchup options if we can stay healthy. I think the other consideration is we may need the first half of the season to adjust to losing IHart as Brunson especially seemed to benefit from his complementary style of play. I'm sure KAT's shooting and play making will work out but won't be surprised if we struggle a bit when the season starts....really wish we could have kept DDV and kept the deapest bench in the league.
Wow this is crazy! Just woke up to this news (euro time) and I’m with everyone who can’t make up his mind on liking it or not. I’ll try to explain:
My NBA Live gamer inside likes this trade because it balances the roster almost perfectly. Now we have a real center who already played for Thibs, brings a 3pt and rebounding game that are definitely weapons. DDV became a fan favorite and his talent is undeniable, but so was the logjam at SG that would’ve probably hurt him as an asset with less playing time now that we have Bridges. Randle, I really pulled for him even in his controversial times, but he was also a weird fit with the rest of the roster.
But MAN!
MAN!
You are telling me the Nova Knicks never get to be tried on the court? You telling me that the January Knicks with Randle healthy won’t get a run? I’ve been waiting for that since the Bridges trade!
It’s crazy because while it feels like a bit of a bucket of water being thrown at you to wake up, it also feels like it’s in the end a good move.
That last part remains to be seen because I don’t see a final trade anywhere. And now I see this and I’m like, what?
This is so weird.
This guy is a reporter, but I'm not sure how credible his sources are. But, it might explain some things.
BigDaddyG wrote:This guy is a reporter, but I'm not sure how credible his sources are. But, it might explain some things.
Won’t lie: when I saw the other post hinting at a Knicks player wanting out, I didn’t think it was Randle, but actually DDV.
Makes sense, though: yeah, the Nova Knicks are a cool thing, but for DDV, he finally gets a chance to shine in prime time as a starting SG and you trade for one that will definitely take from your playing time and will move you back to the bench. This was probably a time bomb waiting to blow up during the season, so it makes sense to act.
Still, hurts though.
BigDaddyG wrote:
Kats contribution vs the Celtics will not be raw stats. It will be spreading the defense. Remember the zones teams run on us? Yea, that is a thing of the past.
Clean wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:
Kats contribution vs the Celtics will not be raw stats. It will be spreading the defense. Remember the zones teams run on us? Yea, that is a thing of the past.
I don't know if it makes much of a difference. They can just stick Horford on KAT without fear of anyone punishing him off the dribble. There's a reason Julius played well against them. He can exploit all sorts of big/small mismatches.
