Knicks · We need an upgrade at PF! (page 2)
HofstraBBall wrote:
So we have a top 10 at those positions mentioned, which may be debatable, (there are a lot of good wings in the NBA), but we have a hole at 4? We agree on hole at 4 then?I liked Randle for his value, 20/10 production, physicality, wanting to play here and All Start/ MVP type years. You disliked him because of his inefficiency? Compared to who? But okay.
And btw, you keep making this about Randle.
Points were that we just traded for our 'final pieces". Yet we still have a hole. And as you said yourself, we are set cap wise.
So only possible upgrade is to move KAT to 4. Unless we can flip Mitch for a young PF that may break out.
As of now, we have to hope Hart has an incredible year, OG and MR stay healthy, Sims or someone else steps up as backup C.
Can we do it, absolutely. Hoping we do. But that does not take away from the reality that we may be PF short of winning a chip.Do have confidence that Rose may have the same view and has a plan in place.
All that being said, will be interesting seeing and rooting for guys mentioned to step up. Will also be interesting to see how this gets worked out if I am right and we are short of our goal. Regardless, it will be fun watching what I think will be a deep run team.
You act like this team didn't have a hole before the trade. All the discussion leading up to the trade was Randle playing center. To me, that leaves a hole at the 4 and the 5 since Randle doesn't really play D.
I also don't think you are thinking forward, we weren't going to re-sign Randle.
jaydh wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:
So we have a top 10 at those positions mentioned, which may be debatable, (there are a lot of good wings in the NBA), but we have a hole at 4? We agree on hole at 4 then?I liked Randle for his value, 20/10 production, physicality, wanting to play here and All Start/ MVP type years. You disliked him because of his inefficiency? Compared to who? But okay.
And btw, you keep making this about Randle.
Points were that we just traded for our 'final pieces". Yet we still have a hole. And as you said yourself, we are set cap wise.
So only possible upgrade is to move KAT to 4. Unless we can flip Mitch for a young PF that may break out.
As of now, we have to hope Hart has an incredible year, OG and MR stay healthy, Sims or someone else steps up as backup C.
Can we do it, absolutely. Hoping we do. But that does not take away from the reality that we may be PF short of winning a chip.Do have confidence that Rose may have the same view and has a plan in place.
All that being said, will be interesting seeing and rooting for guys mentioned to step up. Will also be interesting to see how this gets worked out if I am right and we are short of our goal. Regardless, it will be fun watching what I think will be a deep run team.
You act like this team didn't have a hole before the trade. All the discussion leading up to the trade was Randle playing center. To me, that leaves a hole at the 4 and the 5 since Randle doesn't really play D.
I also don't think you are thinking forward, we weren't going to re-sign Randle.
I absolutely knew we had a hole at Center. Due to Mitch being hurt.
What does that have to do with having concern regarding hole after adding the “final piece”
Yes we had holes but with trade assets and picks. Not to mention no one about to make $60M.
Trading Randle is not the argument here. Trading him, Divo and giving up the many draft assets to be in same position is.
And again, let it go about Randle. I have. It’s about how we get that chip. And where we are after trades is a big part of that.
Putting KAT at 4 when MR is healthy seems like the most likely choice.
Of course giving up any type of offense at the 5.
Unless you feel Hart is the one to match up against top in the East?
Which by how Hart played vs Indy, seems like a long shot.
He was a -67 in 4 losses.
HofstraBBall wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:I mean, another name for this thread could be “is Josh Hart big enough to keep in the starting lineup in the playoffs”. Forget the regular season. He is fine. But come playoff time, will Brunson/Hart/Bridges/OG/Kat be big enough to make it out of the East? For me, depends on his shooting, though moving Bridges and OG to Sg/SF respectively would make be feel better.Brunson/Payne/Kolek - Kolek will be grabbing those minutes soon.
Hart/McBride/Shamet - Slightyl undersized here across the board.
Bridges/ Dadiet - Shamet will be running here for a bit. Darien will be in GLeague for a while.
OG / Achiuwa / Sims - Namesake of this thread.
KAT / Robinson / Huk -Assume we take our year to gel this year and focus on next being more “complete”. It often takes teams a little time to jive. I think finding a PF with Brunson/Bridges/OG/_____ /Towns is correctly on the radar.
I’m not insistent on a move. This team should be making moves to win, but being capped at the 2nd apron, it might be tough to add much.
I probably would switch Hart and McBride, but that assumes Hart is sticking at 31% from 3. If he can get himself up to 36%, I’d let it roll a bit.
If you prefer to call it that then that is fine. But is basically what I am saying without bringing any light to the hole created by the recent trade. And perhaps better for those that did not acknowledge Randles worth at that position.
Look, it's not that we are not a really good team. We are. Or that KAT is not a very good player. He is. Or even that Bridges is not a better player than Divo. He may be. But we just shot our load with these two moves. Leaving holes is a concern for me. Not shitting on the team or thinking this will be a cluster. Just that, if we all want to be a part of a chip celebration, we will need an upgrade at PF. Now, already know that will be hard via trade. As I always said about Randle, trades are sometimes needed and good players will be lost but the important thing is who are you getting back and does that player make you better and ultimately closer to a chip.
IMHO, we need an upgrade at PF if we are to go farther than last year. Now if we move KAT to 4 and MR is healthy, that is an upgrade. Comfortable with MR, KAT, OG, Bridges, JB with Precious, Shamet, Hart and Deuce coming off the bench against Bucks, Sixers and Boston. But that will depend on MR health which has not been something you can count on.
You are right. Unless Hart can shoot 36+ from 3. Then we are fine.
Brunson/Bridges/OG/ ____ / KAT is a top 10 at their position in every slot. Top 5 for Brunson and KAT.
1) If you loved Randle despite his inefficiency, than Brandon Ingram should be on your radar. Hart/Robinson/McBride with a little cap savvy (3rd team?) works. I’m not huge on Ingram, but only cause I think he is better than his shot selection same complaint I had on Randle.
2) Tari Eason is like Hart with positional size. I’d pry that loose in a heartbeat. Dude is all over the place.
3) JJJ is like the Mikal Bridges of PFs. Great size and wingspan. Asked to do too much in offense in Memphis. Not sure how he and Edey fit.
4) Jonathan Isaac. Orlando is just stacking bigs. He is a punishing defender. Mediocre offense.
5) Herb Jones. Versatile 3&D. Perhaps a little undersized at PF but NOP is running him at center. Seems like a no brainer trade here. Huk showed me enough in 2 preseason games for me to pull this trigger.
Fact is, there are options. This year is tight but I think we can make a real run on Boston.
So we have a top 10 at those positions mentioned, which may be debatable, (there are a lot of good wings in the NBA), but we have a hole at 4? We agree on hole at 4 then?
I liked Randle for his value, 20/10 production, physicality, wanting to play here and All Start/ MVP type years. You disliked him because of his inefficiency? Compared to who? But okay.
And btw, you keep making this about Randle.
Points were that we just traded for our 'final pieces". Yet we still have a hole. And as you said yourself, we are set cap wise.
So only possible upgrade is to move KAT to 4. Unless we can flip Mitch for a young PF that may break out.
As of now, we have to hope Hart has an incredible year, OG and MR stay healthy, Sims or someone else steps up as backup C.
Can we do it, absolutely. Hoping we do. But that does not take away from the reality that we may be PF short of winning a chip.Do have confidence that Rose may have the same view and has a plan in place.
All that being said, will be interesting seeing and rooting for guys mentioned to step up. Will also be interesting to see how this gets worked out if I am right and we are short of our goal. Regardless, it will be fun watching what I think will be a deep run team.
Absolute confidence. This office is seeing the full metrics and is getting players that are advanced stat superstars. Divo hurts. He was an advanced stat superstar. Randle vs Towns is a trade for efficiency and positional size.
Josh Hart may be enough to fill the starting lineup hole. But we may need a PF still. But this is a 4 year starting lineup, not a 1 year. I believe Josh Hart can replace most of Randle’s non-scoring stats while Brunson, KAT, Bridges and OG can shoot much more efficiently than he did. Those shots aren’t falling just yet. Offense isn’t in sync yet.
I gave a list of upgrades. Every one of those players could be obtained within our current payroll. I’m good with this team but PF and the bench are the only places we could possibly improve.
Versatility can be a substitute for depth. Knicks are a lot more versatile now.
KAT is a big dude and looks in very good shape. I know Minny went into twin towers getting Rudy and that need not be were we go. If Mitch is still here there will be times that can work. To trade him creates another hole at back up 5 and its to be understood KAT perhaps misses 15 games a per the norm. Kat had 16 Rebs last night!!!
What I saw from Precious seemed to be more offensive minded version and a look that he had in Toronto that showed his limitations offensively.
Not going with excuse it was garbage time as we only were up 5pts with about 90 seconds left. Not saying he was wild.
gradyandrew wrote:I kind of disagree with the premise of your problem. I think the NBA has fully embraced the 3 point revolution and the main change from that has been the increasing obsolescence of the traditional power forward. I think the positions have been more or less reduced to a PG, a Center, and 3 wings. If a team is going for a 8 man rotation, that's 2 PGs, 2 Cs, and 5 wings. For NY, that's Brunson, Payne, KAT, Precious, Hart, Bridges, OG, McBride, and Shamet. Ideally, one of McBride or Shamet would be taller and stronger but I think there are ways to work the rotation, by playing Precious and KAT for example, where it solves the problem.Versatility can be a substitute for depth. Knicks are a lot more versatile now.
If we stay with your premise that PF’s are basically wings now, it does not change the fact there are much better 4’s than what we have. Hart scored as much as Randle last night. Now some may say others picked up the scoring but in playoffs , teams will be able to capitalize on that.
And once again, already said I am very confident if we can put MR, KAT, OG, Bridges and JB on the floor. Which is predicated on health.
Depth is absolutely important. With the loss of Divo and IHart. Seconds to KAT trade, we are less deep. Hoping Shamet and Payne change my mindset.
KAT is a big dude that takes up space. Knicks are better balanced after the big trade.
For those who pine for Oak types, OG is not as "in your face" type but Oak with a better handle and more range on both sides of the court.
HofstraBBall wrote:jaydh wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:
So we have a top 10 at those positions mentioned, which may be debatable, (there are a lot of good wings in the NBA), but we have a hole at 4? We agree on hole at 4 then?I liked Randle for his value, 20/10 production, physicality, wanting to play here and All Start/ MVP type years. You disliked him because of his inefficiency? Compared to who? But okay.
And btw, you keep making this about Randle.
Points were that we just traded for our 'final pieces". Yet we still have a hole. And as you said yourself, we are set cap wise.
So only possible upgrade is to move KAT to 4. Unless we can flip Mitch for a young PF that may break out.
As of now, we have to hope Hart has an incredible year, OG and MR stay healthy, Sims or someone else steps up as backup C.
Can we do it, absolutely. Hoping we do. But that does not take away from the reality that we may be PF short of winning a chip.Do have confidence that Rose may have the same view and has a plan in place.
All that being said, will be interesting seeing and rooting for guys mentioned to step up. Will also be interesting to see how this gets worked out if I am right and we are short of our goal. Regardless, it will be fun watching what I think will be a deep run team.
You act like this team didn't have a hole before the trade. All the discussion leading up to the trade was Randle playing center. To me, that leaves a hole at the 4 and the 5 since Randle doesn't really play D.
I also don't think you are thinking forward, we weren't going to re-sign Randle.
I absolutely knew we had a hole at Center. Due to Mitch being hurt.
What does that have to do with having concern regarding hole after adding the “final piece”
Yes we had holes but with trade assets and picks. Not to mention no one about to make $60M.
Trading Randle is not the argument here. Trading him, Divo and giving up the many draft assets to be in same position is.
And again, let it go about Randle. I have. It’s about how we get that chip. And where we are after trades is a big part of that.Putting KAT at 4 when MR is healthy seems like the most likely choice.
Of course giving up any type of offense at the 5.
Unless you feel Hart is the one to match up against top in the East?
Which by how Hart played vs Indy, seems like a long shot.
He was a -67 in 4 losses.
Did Leon or the Front Office ever proclaim that KAT was the final piece? My interpretation was that they made the move for various reasons:
- Out of need - Mitch injury, IHart leaving and they likely also felt their roster from last season was not championship level.
- Randle contract - likely wanted to move him before they were put in a position to either overpay and go over the 2nd Apron or lose him for nothing
- Relationship and View of KAT as a player - they have had ties to KAT and seem to have been flirting with bringing him to the Knicks in recent years. They likely view KAT as an upgrade which will boost team chances
- Roster Fit - perhaps they felt KAT is a better fit with Brunson
Regarding JHart against Indy - I think you are being a bit unfair by pointing out +/- on an individual player in only losses for a series that he was asked to play significant minutes on a team completely ravaged by injuries by Game 7. Not saying he is a prototypical PF - but he sure appears to be one of the better rebounding Small Forwards in the game on top of the rest of his game.
I said in another thread - this is not a one year and done proposition. Seems that Leon has created a 2-4 year window of contention for the Knicks with this roster. Guessing Leon will tinker as needed closer to the deadline of in the offseason.
Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.
OG is the 4. When he got the bag and Jules didnt say "sure I'll play for half of what my peers make" OG became the 4 and Jules became a lesson in asset management.
fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.OG is the 4. When he got the bag and Jules didnt say "sure I'll play for half of what my peers make" OG became the 4 and Jules became a lesson in asset management.
But will he if we are to match up against the best?
He didn’t in Minny?
Fish, always the optimist. Respect.
OG (my new fave) at 4 may work. But then who is at the 3?
HofstraBBall wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.OG is the 4. When he got the bag and Jules didnt say "sure I'll play for half of what my peers make" OG became the 4 and Jules became a lesson in asset management.
But will he if we are to match up against the best?
He didn’t in Minny?Fish, always the optimist. Respect.
OG (my new fave) at 4 may work. But then who is at the 3?
2/3 are pretty interchangeable. My thing is depth, unless Thibs is seriously thinking about putting Mikal's ironman steak to the test. I'm more concerned that the team doesn't have a wing over 6'3" to bring off the bench. Depth remains an issue and I fear that we will see a repeat of last year's playoffs. I'm hopeful Mitch does eventually start and Hart goes back to the bench. I'm OK with Precious as the 4/5 off the bench.
HofstraBBall wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.OG is the 4. When he got the bag and Jules didnt say "sure I'll play for half of what my peers make" OG became the 4 and Jules became a lesson in asset management.
But will he if we are to match up against the best?
He didn’t in Minny?Fish, always the optimist. Respect.
OG (my new fave) at 4 may work. But then who is at the 3?
Take your pick, but lets say its the best rebounder in the league 6'5 and under (Josh) is it.
Townes is 7 foot big dude. Just because Minny decided to go big don't mean we have to.
"oh, but he was put at the 4 because he is soft"........
Maybe he was. Maybe is not now. 16 rebs last night vs. a big lineup. In 26 min. Not soft. Rudy is not soft.
Lets see how it all shakes out. See how mitch does, How Sims does as back up. Etc. OG can guard any 4 in the league. Josh? Dude is tough, Right? Mikal? 6-7, does everything well and a nightmare for anyone. You saw a glimpse last night creating turnovers.
As said, this roster might not be finished.
It might not happen this season either.
BigDaddyG wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.OG is the 4. When he got the bag and Jules didnt say "sure I'll play for half of what my peers make" OG became the 4 and Jules became a lesson in asset management.
But will he if we are to match up against the best?
He didn’t in Minny?Fish, always the optimist. Respect.
OG (my new fave) at 4 may work. But then who is at the 3?2/3 are pretty interchangeable. My thing is depth, unless Thibs is seriously thinking about putting Mikal's ironman steak to the test. I'm more concerned that the team doesn't have a wing over 6'3" to bring off the bench. Depth remains an issue and I fear that we will see a repeat of last year's playoffs. I'm hopeful Mitch does eventually start and Hart goes back to the bench. I'm OK with Precious as the 4/5 off the bench.
Nalod wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.OG is the 4. When he got the bag and Jules didnt say "sure I'll play for half of what my peers make" OG became the 4 and Jules became a lesson in asset management.
But will he if we are to match up against the best?
He didn’t in Minny?Fish, always the optimist. Respect.
OG (my new fave) at 4 may work. But then who is at the 3?Take your pick, but lets say its the best rebounder in the league 6'5 and under (Josh) is it.
Townes is 7 foot big dude. Just because Minny decided to go big don't mean we have to.
"oh, but he was put at the 4 because he is soft"........Maybe he was. Maybe is not now. 16 rebs last night vs. a big lineup. In 26 min. Not soft. Rudy is not soft.
Lets see how it all shakes out. See how mitch does, How Sims does as back up. Etc. OG can guard any 4 in the league. Josh? Dude is tough, Right? Mikal? 6-7, does everything well and a nightmare for anyone. You saw a glimpse last night creating turnovers.As said, this roster might not be finished.
It might not happen this season either.
Always a fan of wait and see. Thought that’s what we should have done before trade. Things on paper are just that.
Some here saying Towns and Bridges were not final pieces are basically saying what I am saying.
Yet they seem to have an issue with me saying it.
OG can lead a team. IMO. He was the best player on the court last night. Of course , that will depend on continued aggressiveness and you know health. Both struggles for him in the past.
But think, as is the case for most teams every year, the key will be how other guys step up. And health. We had Divo and IHart do so last year. No reason Sims, Precious and Deice can again this year.
Only pivots I see if things don’t work out, is trading Mitch. Or pivoting from Bridges if he does not work out (but that will have to be a quick decision) or what else?
Not covering my head because of lack of talent. We have a very talented team. But for once in a very long time, we are all looking past the season. Looking for a chip. Hoping we can get there with what we have but concerned about some deficiencies
BigDaddyG wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.OG is the 4. When he got the bag and Jules didnt say "sure I'll play for half of what my peers make" OG became the 4 and Jules became a lesson in asset management.
But will he if we are to match up against the best?
He didn’t in Minny?Fish, always the optimist. Respect.
OG (my new fave) at 4 may work. But then who is at the 3?2/3 are pretty interchangeable. My thing is depth, unless Thibs is seriously thinking about putting Mikal's ironman steak to the test. I'm more concerned that the team doesn't have a wing over 6'3" to bring off the bench. Depth remains an issue and I fear that we will see a repeat of last year's playoffs. I'm hopeful Mitch does eventually start and Hart goes back to the bench. I'm OK with Precious as the 4/5 off the bench.
Agree with you.
Implication with wanting an upgrade at PF is that Josh is not enough. Or anyone else besides Towns or OG on the roster. However, if you put OG at 4, who plays the 3?
And as you said, Josh starting takes away from the bench.
HofstraBBall wrote:Nalod wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.OG is the 4. When he got the bag and Jules didnt say "sure I'll play for half of what my peers make" OG became the 4 and Jules became a lesson in asset management.
But will he if we are to match up against the best?
He didn’t in Minny?Fish, always the optimist. Respect.
OG (my new fave) at 4 may work. But then who is at the 3?Take your pick, but lets say its the best rebounder in the league 6'5 and under (Josh) is it.
Townes is 7 foot big dude. Just because Minny decided to go big don't mean we have to.
"oh, but he was put at the 4 because he is soft"........Maybe he was. Maybe is not now. 16 rebs last night vs. a big lineup. In 26 min. Not soft. Rudy is not soft.
Lets see how it all shakes out. See how mitch does, How Sims does as back up. Etc. OG can guard any 4 in the league. Josh? Dude is tough, Right? Mikal? 6-7, does everything well and a nightmare for anyone. You saw a glimpse last night creating turnovers.As said, this roster might not be finished.
It might not happen this season either.Always a fan of wait and see. Thought that’s what we should have done before trade. Things on paper are just that.
Some here saying Towns and Bridges were not final pieces are basically saying what I am saying.
Yet they seem to have an issue with me saying it.OG can lead a team. IMO. He was the best player on the court last night. Of course , that will depend on continued aggressiveness and you know health. Both struggles for him in the past.
But think, as is the case for most teams every year, the key will be how other guys step up. And health. We had Divo and IHart do so last year. No reason Sims, Precious and Deice can again this year.
Only pivots I see if things don’t work out, is trading Mitch. Or pivoting from Bridges if he does not work out (but that will have to be a quick decision) or what else?
Not covering my head because of lack of talent. We have a very talented team. But for once in a very long time, we are all looking past the season. Looking for a chip. Hoping we can get there with what we have but concerned about some deficiencies
Your not wrong and its why I don't think we win a chip this year.
They will either prove it otherwise via health, talent, and luck, or not.
I'm hopeful we do win it all!!
fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.
Not after Mitch comes back
BigDaddyG wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.OG is the 4. When he got the bag and Jules didnt say "sure I'll play for half of what my peers make" OG became the 4 and Jules became a lesson in asset management.
But will he if we are to match up against the best?
He didn’t in Minny?Fish, always the optimist. Respect.
OG (my new fave) at 4 may work. But then who is at the 3?2/3 are pretty interchangeable. My thing is depth, unless Thibs is seriously thinking about putting Mikal's ironman steak to the test. I'm more concerned that the team doesn't have a wing over 6'3" to bring off the bench. Depth remains an issue and I fear that we will see a repeat of last year's playoffs. I'm hopeful Mitch does eventually start and Hart goes back to the bench. I'm OK with Precious as the 4/5 off the bench.
Mitch is going to start. I wouldn’t be shocked if Sims started games in the regular season. OG is made of glass.
HofstraBBall wrote:he was the POA defender on Joker in the playoffs and was very good. It's part of what upset Sota fans about the trade so much "KAT finally got THERE and..."fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:We have our PF for the next 10 years his name is Townsyup. Except he plays center. So there's that.OG is the 4. When he got the bag and Jules didnt say "sure I'll play for half of what my peers make" OG became the 4 and Jules became a lesson in asset management.
But will he if we are to match up against the best?
He didn’t in Minny?Fish, always the optimist. Respect.
OG (my new fave) at 4 may work. But then who is at the 3?
I think we see Thibs unlock another level in another vet w/ KAT.
I have always thought of Mikal/Josh as interchangeable at the 2/3.
I dont know how it all plays out but my optimism is really coming from the roster makeup and talent.