Knicks · Did last night vindicate the offseason? (page 2)
blkexec wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Macri brought up good point Of Randle put up 50 points and the Wolves won by 20, would you have said the Knicks lost the trade? The answer is no. It's a long season. I think KAT's overall offensive efficiency this already season speaks volumes. If the Knicks end up winning 50 games and losing in the second round will that change your mind into thinking the trade was a mistake? There are still moves to be made. That said I'm just glad to see the team improve as the season goes on.Nope…not for me…Always looked at Randle as addition by subtraction long term move. So any short term performance he puts up, I was one of the few saying “Can we trade him now?”…….lol. As we can see he’s the same player. When he adapts and reduces his bully style he’s a roll player at best. He needs to be a black hole to justify his worth. Kat already got his money. And he’s the opposite of a black hole. Makes quick decisions even when shooting bad 3s. They are quick moves.
But most would agree with you.
FOR ME…….Even if it’s a neutral move and we still can’t get out of 2nd round this move increases our ceiling more to eventually get there.
If we lose in the second round again, it might not be the trade but the coach. Not predicting anything, just have to see what happens.
GustavBahler wrote:blkexec wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Macri brought up good point Of Randle put up 50 points and the Wolves won by 20, would you have said the Knicks lost the trade? The answer is no. It's a long season. I think KAT's overall offensive efficiency this already season speaks volumes. If the Knicks end up winning 50 games and losing in the second round will that change your mind into thinking the trade was a mistake? There are still moves to be made. That said I'm just glad to see the team improve as the season goes on.Nope…not for me…Always looked at Randle as addition by subtraction long term move. So any short term performance he puts up, I was one of the few saying “Can we trade him now?”…….lol. As we can see he’s the same player. When he adapts and reduces his bully style he’s a roll player at best. He needs to be a black hole to justify his worth. Kat already got his money. And he’s the opposite of a black hole. Makes quick decisions even when shooting bad 3s. They are quick moves.
But most would agree with you.
FOR ME…….Even if it’s a neutral move and we still can’t get out of 2nd round this move increases our ceiling more to eventually get there.
If we lose in the second round again, it might not be the trade but the coach. Not predicting anything, just have to see what happens.
Fire Thibs thread?
Don’t think that’s fair. One, Team is still coming together but can’t say we are complete.
Still have some holes to fill. Hopefully another scorer off the bench and MR back is enough.
Two, Saying it’s the coaches fault is too easy. Everyone hyping up how good we are after a win over the Wolves and then blaming coach if those players lay eggs in the playoffs would be weak.
Now in Minnesota no one can shoot, there isnt good PG play and you have two ISO guys. He is frustrated and he provably feels slighted he didnt get extended in NY. He may yet turn it around, but Minnesota probably cant or wont extend him and he will move again. And he wont get a max. In fact he probably has to take his player option.
Don't forget the book on KAT was the mental game too. He would make stupid mistakes or stupid fouls. Played an immature game despite being so talented. He is growing up here, but I think Thibs is unlocking a new level from him as he has done with so many players here. Fouls are coming down, rebounds are up, decision making is improving.
Minnesota basically bet KAT couldnt be a 5 in the NBA on a contending team and the Knicks took the opposite side of the bet. In the "5 out" NBA the Knicks bet seems to make more sense. On defense, give yourself 3 versatile wings and see how it holds up. On offense with a great PG, an elite 5, 2 great corner shooters and a swiss army knife who can freelance when the offense breaks down, the Knicks can look unstoppable at times.
Meanwhile Minnesota has the looks of the Knicks of 2 yrs ago - Rim protection and 2 good iso bully ball guys without enough shooting and spacing. They went backwards on innovation when the Knicks went forward.
Knicks seem more "right," but there no guarantees that they will go farther. Minny might be "wrong," but they had no choice but to unwind something because of their financial situation. Donte hasnt given them the shooting they needed and Conley turned into a corpse so they are a level lower than they expected.
blkexec wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Macri brought up good point Of Randle put up 50 points and the Wolves won by 20, would you have said the Knicks lost the trade? The answer is no. It's a long season. I think KAT's overall offensive efficiency this already season speaks volumes. If the Knicks end up winning 50 games and losing in the second round will that change your mind into thinking the trade was a mistake? There are still moves to be made. That said I'm just glad to see the team improve as the season goes on.Nope…not for me…Always looked at Randle as addition by subtraction long term move. So any short term performance he puts up, I was one of the few saying “Can we trade him now?”…….lol. As we can see he’s the same player. When he adapts and reduces his bully style he’s a roll player at best. He needs to be a black hole to justify his worth. Kat already got his money. And he’s the opposite of a black hole. Makes quick decisions even when shooting bad 3s. They are quick moves.
But most would agree with you.
FOR ME…….Even if it’s a neutral move and we still can’t get out of 2nd round this move increases our ceiling more to eventually get there.
It absolutely will be a wash in terms of trade if we lose in the second.
Everyone pilling on Randle is a couple of things:
The Wolves chose to rebuild and let go of one of its “Franchise” players. Knicks chose to go “All In” and “Win Now” with a 60M contract, gave up the remainder of their valued picks, tradeable assets and paid OG big money. Anyone on here claiming they would be okay with a second round loss because” we got better” is not being honest.
The argument for Randle has ALWAYS been was he worth more than two second round picks, was he the first All Star level player that came here and helped turn things around. Not if he was capable of single handedly taking a team to conference finals or if he was a high IQ player.
The argument for KAT will always be, is he worth the salary a team has to commit to him. Not if he is a good player. So yes, with our current commitment to salaries and loss of assets, I will be pissed if we lose in first or second round.
GustavBahler wrote:blkexec wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Macri brought up good point Of Randle put up 50 points and the Wolves won by 20, would you have said the Knicks lost the trade? The answer is no. It's a long season. I think KAT's overall offensive efficiency this already season speaks volumes. If the Knicks end up winning 50 games and losing in the second round will that change your mind into thinking the trade was a mistake? There are still moves to be made. That said I'm just glad to see the team improve as the season goes on.Nope…not for me…Always looked at Randle as addition by subtraction long term move. So any short term performance he puts up, I was one of the few saying “Can we trade him now?”…….lol. As we can see he’s the same player. When he adapts and reduces his bully style he’s a roll player at best. He needs to be a black hole to justify his worth. Kat already got his money. And he’s the opposite of a black hole. Makes quick decisions even when shooting bad 3s. They are quick moves.
But most would agree with you.
FOR ME…….Even if it’s a neutral move and we still can’t get out of 2nd round this move increases our ceiling more to eventually get there.
If we lose in the second round again, it might not be the trade but the coach. Not predicting anything, just have to see what happens.
We are getting the Celtics or Cavs in the second round. It will not be a typical second round series this will be more like the Knicks/Bulls second round serieses in the early 90’s where the winner is likely going to the Finals.
HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:blkexec wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Macri brought up good point Of Randle put up 50 points and the Wolves won by 20, would you have said the Knicks lost the trade? The answer is no. It's a long season. I think KAT's overall offensive efficiency this already season speaks volumes. If the Knicks end up winning 50 games and losing in the second round will that change your mind into thinking the trade was a mistake? There are still moves to be made. That said I'm just glad to see the team improve as the season goes on.Nope…not for me…Always looked at Randle as addition by subtraction long term move. So any short term performance he puts up, I was one of the few saying “Can we trade him now?”…….lol. As we can see he’s the same player. When he adapts and reduces his bully style he’s a roll player at best. He needs to be a black hole to justify his worth. Kat already got his money. And he’s the opposite of a black hole. Makes quick decisions even when shooting bad 3s. They are quick moves.
But most would agree with you.
FOR ME…….Even if it’s a neutral move and we still can’t get out of 2nd round this move increases our ceiling more to eventually get there.
If we lose in the second round again, it might not be the trade but the coach. Not predicting anything, just have to see what happens.
Fire Thibs thread?
Don’t think that’s fair. One, Team is still coming together but can’t say we are complete.
Still have some holes to fill. Hopefully another scorer off the bench and MR back is enough.Two, Saying it’s the coaches fault is too easy. Everyone hyping up how good we are after a win over the Wolves and then blaming coach if those players lay eggs in the playoffs would be weak.
Reflexively giving any coach a pass, months before the playoffs, for an early exit, is weak.Especially with all the talent on this roster. Still a lot of games to play, more trades might be made as well. We dont know who we will be playing, the team we face might have their own roster issues, like injuries for example, anything could happen.
All I did was raise the possibility that a second round loss might be due to something other than the roster, and just the roster. That Thibs might get outcoached in the playoffs. Not the certainty that a loss will have to do with coaching, only the possibility.
As I said, we have to see how things play out, not assigning blame in advance. Nothing biased about that.
GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:blkexec wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Macri brought up good point Of Randle put up 50 points and the Wolves won by 20, would you have said the Knicks lost the trade? The answer is no. It's a long season. I think KAT's overall offensive efficiency this already season speaks volumes. If the Knicks end up winning 50 games and losing in the second round will that change your mind into thinking the trade was a mistake? There are still moves to be made. That said I'm just glad to see the team improve as the season goes on.Nope…not for me…Always looked at Randle as addition by subtraction long term move. So any short term performance he puts up, I was one of the few saying “Can we trade him now?”…….lol. As we can see he’s the same player. When he adapts and reduces his bully style he’s a roll player at best. He needs to be a black hole to justify his worth. Kat already got his money. And he’s the opposite of a black hole. Makes quick decisions even when shooting bad 3s. They are quick moves.
But most would agree with you.
FOR ME…….Even if it’s a neutral move and we still can’t get out of 2nd round this move increases our ceiling more to eventually get there.
If we lose in the second round again, it might not be the trade but the coach. Not predicting anything, just have to see what happens.
Fire Thibs thread?
Don’t think that’s fair. One, Team is still coming together but can’t say we are complete.
Still have some holes to fill. Hopefully another scorer off the bench and MR back is enough.Two, Saying it’s the coaches fault is too easy. Everyone hyping up how good we are after a win over the Wolves and then blaming coach if those players lay eggs in the playoffs would be weak.
Reflexively giving any coach a pass, months before the playoffs, for an early exit, is weak.Especially with all the talent on this roster. Still a lot of games to play, more trades might be made as well. We dont know who we will be playing, the team we face might have their own roster issues, like injuries for example, anything could happen.
All I did was raise the possibility that a second round loss might be due to something other than the roster, and just the roster. That Thibs might get outcoached in the playoffs. Not the certainty that a loss will have to do with coaching, only the possibility.
As I said, we have to see how things play out, not assigning blame in advance. Nothing biased about that.
You know what’s weaker? Making up some scenario about a second round loss and reflexively making an assumption about who is the culprit.
Knicks had a pretty badass team last January and we still lost in the second round but it was a glorious run. Cause stuff happens.
Do you guys just harp on end of world scenarios? I don’t get that
I'm not going to slam Randle- I do think he's got his issues, but I feel like he brought grit and maybe some grind attitude that we're missing.
I keep seeing things with this team that confuse me. We were out worked by Atlanta in that Cup game and barely beat a barely more than G League Hornets and Orlando minus multiple stars.
And then we go and wipe out a Minny that was playing really decent ball.
I guess one question is - thinking about the off season:
If we had been able to keep iHart, would you rather have run it back, adding Bridges, keeping DDV & Randle with iHart - or, still trading Randle & DDV for Kat?
franco12 wrote:I keep forgetting- and I think we all are on this thread- that we basically lost iHart for nothing, and much of the rationale, I think, for getting Towns, was to fill that gap, as well as solidify cap position vis a vis the main core that the Knicks have established.I'm not going to slam Randle- I do think he's got his issues, but I feel like he brought grit and maybe some grind attitude that we're missing.
I keep seeing things with this team that confuse me. We were out worked by Atlanta in that Cup game and barely beat a barely more than G League Hornets and Orlando minus multiple stars.
And then we go and wipe out a Minny that was playing really decent ball.
I guess one question is - thinking about the off season:
If we had been able to keep iHart, would you rather have run it back, adding Bridges, keeping DDV & Randle with iHart - or, still trading Randle & DDV for Kat?
iHart and Mitch are the reasons Towns is here.
January's team was a buzz saw.
ToddTT wrote:franco12 wrote:I keep forgetting- and I think we all are on this thread- that we basically lost iHart for nothing, and much of the rationale, I think, for getting Towns, was to fill that gap, as well as solidify cap position vis a vis the main core that the Knicks have established.I'm not going to slam Randle- I do think he's got his issues, but I feel like he brought grit and maybe some grind attitude that we're missing.
I keep seeing things with this team that confuse me. We were out worked by Atlanta in that Cup game and barely beat a barely more than G League Hornets and Orlando minus multiple stars.
And then we go and wipe out a Minny that was playing really decent ball.
I guess one question is - thinking about the off season:
If we had been able to keep iHart, would you rather have run it back, adding Bridges, keeping DDV & Randle with iHart - or, still trading Randle & DDV for Kat?
iHart and Mitch are the reasons Towns is here.
January's team was a buzz saw.
Oh, and a m***er ****er named Jaime.
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:blkexec wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Macri brought up good point Of Randle put up 50 points and the Wolves won by 20, would you have said the Knicks lost the trade? The answer is no. It's a long season. I think KAT's overall offensive efficiency this already season speaks volumes. If the Knicks end up winning 50 games and losing in the second round will that change your mind into thinking the trade was a mistake? There are still moves to be made. That said I'm just glad to see the team improve as the season goes on.Nope…not for me…Always looked at Randle as addition by subtraction long term move. So any short term performance he puts up, I was one of the few saying “Can we trade him now?”…….lol. As we can see he’s the same player. When he adapts and reduces his bully style he’s a roll player at best. He needs to be a black hole to justify his worth. Kat already got his money. And he’s the opposite of a black hole. Makes quick decisions even when shooting bad 3s. They are quick moves.
But most would agree with you.
FOR ME…….Even if it’s a neutral move and we still can’t get out of 2nd round this move increases our ceiling more to eventually get there.
If we lose in the second round again, it might not be the trade but the coach. Not predicting anything, just have to see what happens.
Fire Thibs thread?
Don’t think that’s fair. One, Team is still coming together but can’t say we are complete.
Still have some holes to fill. Hopefully another scorer off the bench and MR back is enough.Two, Saying it’s the coaches fault is too easy. Everyone hyping up how good we are after a win over the Wolves and then blaming coach if those players lay eggs in the playoffs would be weak.
Reflexively giving any coach a pass, months before the playoffs, for an early exit, is weak.Especially with all the talent on this roster. Still a lot of games to play, more trades might be made as well. We dont know who we will be playing, the team we face might have their own roster issues, like injuries for example, anything could happen.
All I did was raise the possibility that a second round loss might be due to something other than the roster, and just the roster. That Thibs might get outcoached in the playoffs. Not the certainty that a loss will have to do with coaching, only the possibility.
As I said, we have to see how things play out, not assigning blame in advance. Nothing biased about that.
You know what’s weaker? Making up some scenario about a second round loss and reflexively making an assumption about who is the culprit.
Knicks had a pretty badass team last January and we still lost in the second round but it was a glorious run. Cause stuff happens.
Do you guys just harp on end of world scenarios? I don’t get that
Thats stupid, because I only said that Thibs might get outcoached in a potential second round loss, not that he will. It might not be about the roster and nothing else. Which was the only scenario offered upthread for an early exit.
Good coaches sometimes get outcoached, happens all the time. Not to acknowledge this fact is silly.
Last season we went into the playoffs very shorthanded. Thibs did a good job. If we dont have the same injury issues as last season, and we still lose in the second round to a Cavs or Celtics squad. Maybe who are missing one or more important pieces due to injury. Maybe just maybe we got outcoached. Xs and Os.
You are stating flat out that there is no way Thibs can get outcoached in the playoffs when you wont even acknowledge that he just might face a better coach early in the playoffs. Not that he will, that he might.
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:blkexec wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Macri brought up good point Of Randle put up 50 points and the Wolves won by 20, would you have said the Knicks lost the trade? The answer is no. It's a long season. I think KAT's overall offensive efficiency this already season speaks volumes. If the Knicks end up winning 50 games and losing in the second round will that change your mind into thinking the trade was a mistake? There are still moves to be made. That said I'm just glad to see the team improve as the season goes on.Nope…not for me…Always looked at Randle as addition by subtraction long term move. So any short term performance he puts up, I was one of the few saying “Can we trade him now?”…….lol. As we can see he’s the same player. When he adapts and reduces his bully style he’s a roll player at best. He needs to be a black hole to justify his worth. Kat already got his money. And he’s the opposite of a black hole. Makes quick decisions even when shooting bad 3s. They are quick moves.
But most would agree with you.
FOR ME…….Even if it’s a neutral move and we still can’t get out of 2nd round this move increases our ceiling more to eventually get there.
If we lose in the second round again, it might not be the trade but the coach. Not predicting anything, just have to see what happens.
Fire Thibs thread?
Don’t think that’s fair. One, Team is still coming together but can’t say we are complete.
Still have some holes to fill. Hopefully another scorer off the bench and MR back is enough.Two, Saying it’s the coaches fault is too easy. Everyone hyping up how good we are after a win over the Wolves and then blaming coach if those players lay eggs in the playoffs would be weak.
Reflexively giving any coach a pass, months before the playoffs, for an early exit, is weak.Especially with all the talent on this roster. Still a lot of games to play, more trades might be made as well. We dont know who we will be playing, the team we face might have their own roster issues, like injuries for example, anything could happen.
All I did was raise the possibility that a second round loss might be due to something other than the roster, and just the roster. That Thibs might get outcoached in the playoffs. Not the certainty that a loss will have to do with coaching, only the possibility.
As I said, we have to see how things play out, not assigning blame in advance. Nothing biased about that.
You know what’s weaker? Making up some scenario about a second round loss and reflexively making an assumption about who is the culprit.
Knicks had a pretty badass team last January and we still lost in the second round but it was a glorious run. Cause stuff happens.
Do you guys just harp on end of world scenarios? I don’t get that
Thats stupid, because I only said that Thibs might get outcoached in a potential second round loss, not that he will. It might not be about the roster and nothing else. Which was the only scenario offered upthread for an early exit.
Good coaches sometimes get outcoached, happens all the time. Not to acknowledge this fact is silly.
Last season we went into the playoffs very shorthanded. Thibs did a good job. If we dont have the same injury issues as last season, and we still lose in the second round to a Cavs or Celtics squad. Maybe who are missing one or more important pieces due to injury. Maybe just maybe we got outcoached. Xs and Os.
You are stating flat out that there is no way Thibs can get outcoached in the playoffs when you wont even acknowledge that he just might face a better coach early in the playoffs. Not that he will, that he might.
I didn’t state anything. You can leave your words out of mine.
You don’t really have a good grasp of how coaching decisions are made. This is not a whim level thing, as you infer.
This is just you not really understanding how someone like Leon makes decisions.
ToddTT wrote:franco12 wrote:I keep forgetting- and I think we all are on this thread- that we basically lost iHart for nothing, and much of the rationale, I think, for getting Towns, was to fill that gap, as well as solidify cap position vis a vis the main core that the Knicks have established.I'm not going to slam Randle- I do think he's got his issues, but I feel like he brought grit and maybe some grind attitude that we're missing.
I keep seeing things with this team that confuse me. We were out worked by Atlanta in that Cup game and barely beat a barely more than G League Hornets and Orlando minus multiple stars.
And then we go and wipe out a Minny that was playing really decent ball.
I guess one question is - thinking about the off season:
If we had been able to keep iHart, would you rather have run it back, adding Bridges, keeping DDV & Randle with iHart - or, still trading Randle & DDV for Kat?
iHart and Mitch are the reasons Towns is here.
January's team was a buzz saw.
Leon is the reason KAT is here, he decided that like 5 years ago or whatnot, way before iHart was even on team.
GustavBahler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:blkexec wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Macri brought up good point Of Randle put up 50 points and the Wolves won by 20, would you have said the Knicks lost the trade? The answer is no. It's a long season. I think KAT's overall offensive efficiency this already season speaks volumes. If the Knicks end up winning 50 games and losing in the second round will that change your mind into thinking the trade was a mistake? There are still moves to be made. That said I'm just glad to see the team improve as the season goes on.Nope…not for me…Always looked at Randle as addition by subtraction long term move. So any short term performance he puts up, I was one of the few saying “Can we trade him now?”…….lol. As we can see he’s the same player. When he adapts and reduces his bully style he’s a roll player at best. He needs to be a black hole to justify his worth. Kat already got his money. And he’s the opposite of a black hole. Makes quick decisions even when shooting bad 3s. They are quick moves.
But most would agree with you.
FOR ME…….Even if it’s a neutral move and we still can’t get out of 2nd round this move increases our ceiling more to eventually get there.
If we lose in the second round again, it might not be the trade but the coach. Not predicting anything, just have to see what happens.
Fire Thibs thread?
Don’t think that’s fair. One, Team is still coming together but can’t say we are complete.
Still have some holes to fill. Hopefully another scorer off the bench and MR back is enough.Two, Saying it’s the coaches fault is too easy. Everyone hyping up how good we are after a win over the Wolves and then blaming coach if those players lay eggs in the playoffs would be weak.
Reflexively giving any coach a pass, months before the playoffs, for an early exit, is weak.Especially with all the talent on this roster. Still a lot of games to play, more trades might be made as well. We dont know who we will be playing, the team we face might have their own roster issues, like injuries for example, anything could happen.
All I did was raise the possibility that a second round loss might be due to something other than the roster, and just the roster. That Thibs might get outcoached in the playoffs. Not the certainty that a loss will have to do with coaching, only the possibility.
As I said, we have to see how things play out, not assigning blame in advance. Nothing biased about that.
That’s fair. Guess you would have to wait and see how it plays out.
Will be clear if key guys disappear. Aka, not coaches fault.
Feel that in basketball, the coaches job is to have a team ready, prepared and One that has bought in to its system. Thibs has always shown to have his teams extremely prepared. Many of his players have always emphasized that. The rest is up to the 5 main players to perform. Especially ones which have been touted as some of the best in the league.
We are not talking football where there is a large number of offensive plays and defensive schemes which are crucial for success.
franco12 wrote:I keep forgetting- and I think we all are on this thread- that we basically lost iHart for nothing, and much of the rationale, I think, for getting Towns, was to fill that gap, as well as solidify cap position vis a vis the main core that the Knicks have established.I'm not going to slam Randle- I do think he's got his issues, but I feel like he brought grit and maybe some grind attitude that we're missing.
I keep seeing things with this team that confuse me. We were out worked by Atlanta in that Cup game and barely beat a barely more than G League Hornets and Orlando minus multiple stars.
And then we go and wipe out a Minny that was playing really decent ball.
I guess one question is - thinking about the off season:
If we had been able to keep iHart, would you rather have run it back, adding Bridges, keeping DDV & Randle with iHart - or, still trading Randle & DDV for Kat?
DDV had a meltdown when we traded for Bridges. Saw bridges taking over his role in the team and a kind of a slap to the face. He’s not wrong but business is business.