Knicks · Game Thread：Knicks@Thunder in Biggest Game of the Season (page 13)
This team has a mixture of young talent and veteran talent. Key word: talent. Yes, these guys have shown that they can play in the NBA. Can they make mistakes and cost us games? Sure! Same applies for the starters, who are slowly being ran to the ground playing 40+ mins constantly. Payne and Kolek can certainly contribute more than 0-10mins they get. Sims is freaking alive for a few minutes in between also using Precious to spell Towns and OG. Same with Huk. Shamet is ramping up but he can definitely go up a few more minutes on his turns. Deuce being out hasn’t helped, true, but even with him available we’ve seen this discrepancy on minutes.
The thing is, I’m not arguing we need to run a full backup lineup out there for extended minutes. But there is no real strategy in using the bench wisely with some starters to change pace and give more responsibilities to the bench. This is a huge mistake that will prove terrible come playoff time. The same way we used the first 20-so games to get this starting lineup acclimated, the same needs to be done with the bench, yet it’s being seldomly used. I hate that from Thibs. We’ll keep falling behind the crop of the league if we keep having this limited mindset regarding the bench. No, you develop it just as OKC, Boston, Cleveland and Memphis have.
fitzfarm wrote:Again biggest manufactured win for the thunder … they hammered us with no whistle so they could get back on top… hole game if they called that we would be throwing bottles on the court .
That was total bull shit … we won this game from a skill standpoint…. We were clearly the better team… that was trash and the refs are to blame for the loss
While I wasn't happy with the officiating and I came out of game thinking we in fact are better than OKC I don't blame this one on the refs.
We simply went away from the play style that was working - ball sharing and movement. Brunson slowly went into ISO game and clock was running down every possession. This happens literally ALL THE TIME - yes it works against most teams and doesn't cost us games but ultimately we need to have a free flowing offense against best defensives.
In first half and even thru 3 OKC had no answers to our diverse attack. In the 4th Jalen slowed the game down further, Kat was left out completely and we completely struggled to break the foul line on offense.
Start of 3rd quarter sucked as well -- think we turned ball over 4 straight times and lead went from 12 to -1 in a flash -- at least I think that's the way it went.
Can't give credit to defense when we are simply making sloppy pass decisions and we are losing our own dribble - need to be better protecting the ball.
DLeethal wrote:Tough loss. Jalen kind of killed us down the stretch but the whole team looked exhausted. Really needed Deuce to eat 25-30 mins in a game like that. We need a bench forward who can fill it up and play some defense badly. Trade Mitch and get it done please. OG looks like he's gonna melt soon.
I think we need someone other that Hart that can play with Brunson but take the ball out of his hands OCCASIONALLY.
Cool think with Jalen is he is equally tough playing off the ball -- would love to relieve him of having to work the ball up the court against great defenders.
Marcus Smart?
nycericanguy wrote:winnable game, thats all you can ask for.OKC is the best and hottest team in the league and nearly unbeatable at home, we had them by the ropes but couldn't finish it off. Needed a bit better game from Brunson, he'll get em next time.
YES - the positive is from my perspective we looked like the more legit team from a pure skill/fit perspective -- we just fell into bad habits of Jalen thinking he needed to win game by himself.
ToddTT wrote:That missed three at the half, followed by the quick OKC bucket was a big swing.Props to OKC for being a great team.
Props to Thibs for saving the best strategies for the playoffs. 😏
And teams simply don't run the shot clock completely down before shooting anymore. We got that last possession of 2nd quarter with 23 seconds on the clock. But instead of holding for final shot we shot corner 3 with 5 seconds and OKC got the score at other end.
When you get that ball you have to guarantee you go into 1/2 with minimum 14 point lead --- maybe 16 or 17 but not 12.
VDesai wrote:Quick turnaround. Have to bounce back and take a winnable game tonight in Chicago. These guys will be back at MSG soon enough
YES - HUGE game tonight - can't have hangover against Bulls team that scores a bunch of points.
Knicksfan wrote:I’m so tired of this narrative that you have to wait until you have all stars on the bench too for it to be useful. FTS. That’s not what the current great teams are doing. They have actually been progressively playing decent players, mixing and matching with their current stars as they keep them both in rhythm and contributing. This idea that we have to keep the trading carousel going until you hit the jackpot for the bench is really misguided.This team has a mixture of young talent and veteran talent. Key word: talent. Yes, these guys have shown that they can play in the NBA. Can they make mistakes and cost us games? Sure! Same applies for the starters, who are slowly being ran to the ground playing 40+ mins constantly. Payne and Kolek can certainly contribute more than 0-10mins they get. Sims is freaking alive for a few minutes in between also using Precious to spell Towns and OG. Same with Huk. Shamet is ramping up but he can definitely go up a few more minutes on his turns. Deuce being out hasn’t helped, true, but even with him available we’ve seen this discrepancy on minutes.
The thing is, I’m not arguing we need to run a full backup lineup out there for extended minutes. But there is no real strategy in using the bench wisely with some starters to change pace and give more responsibilities to the bench. This is a huge mistake that will prove terrible come playoff time. The same way we used the first 20-so games to get this starting lineup acclimated, the same needs to be done with the bench, yet it’s being seldomly used. I hate that from Thibs. We’ll keep falling behind the crop of the league if we keep having this limited mindset regarding the bench. No, you develop it just as OKC, Boston, Cleveland and Memphis have.
Thibs is frustrating as hell with how he works the bench - no doubt. I just don't think that cost us game last night. Our best player didn't play good in the 4th and most of game.
I 100% agree with your frustration with the bench -- my biggest gripe with Thibs is when he uses the bench and a guy comes out playing well and Thibs yanks him and guy never returns. That is FRUSTRATING but last night I thought we stopped moving the ball.
Knicksfan wrote:I’m so tired of this narrative that you have to wait until you have all stars on the bench too for it to be useful. FTS. That’s not what the current great teams are doing. They have actually been progressively playing decent players, mixing and matching with their current stars as they keep them both in rhythm and contributing. This idea that we have to keep the trading carousel going until you hit the jackpot for the bench is really misguided.This team has a mixture of young talent and veteran talent. Key word: talent. Yes, these guys have shown that they can play in the NBA. Can they make mistakes and cost us games? Sure! Same applies for the starters, who are slowly being ran to the ground playing 40+ mins constantly. Payne and Kolek can certainly contribute more than 0-10mins they get. Sims is freaking alive for a few minutes in between also using Precious to spell Towns and OG. Same with Huk. Shamet is ramping up but he can definitely go up a few more minutes on his turns. Deuce being out hasn’t helped, true, but even with him available we’ve seen this discrepancy on minutes.
The thing is, I’m not arguing we need to run a full backup lineup out there for extended minutes. But there is no real strategy in using the bench wisely with some starters to change pace and give more responsibilities to the bench. This is a huge mistake that will prove terrible come playoff time. The same way we used the first 20-so games to get this starting lineup acclimated, the same needs to be done with the bench, yet it’s being seldomly used. I hate that from Thibs. We’ll keep falling behind the crop of the league if we keep having this limited mindset regarding the bench. No, you develop it just as OKC, Boston, Cleveland and Memphis have.
At a macro level, how do you develop the Knicks bench? The key guys are Deuce, Mitch, Precious, Shamet, Payne, Sims. After that, it’s rookies: Kolek, Huk, Dadiet.
I don’t think the initial bolded is an accurate detail of what’s going on. The second bolded regarding Deuce if flat wrong, he has gotten a very consistent 25 minutes a night when healthy.
I think that playing all the starters 40 minutes is stupid. I also think that playing your bench minutes when they are sucking is also stupid.
Gameflow: https://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20250...
The Knicks were up like 13 midway through 3rd, and that’s when the bench substitutions start. It was the Brunson, Mikal, Precious, Payne, Shamet minutes that lost the lead from mid 3rd to early fourth, and then it was a free fall after that.
I guess you could bring back in those guys that lost you lead or staggered them even more later in the 4th and hope they don’t fuck up again?
Love it or hate it, the rookies are on a development program. Folks just don’t love it cause maybe they can’t kinda sorta see them play and be involved? Are you a win at any cost fan or do you believe in developing the young kids at the expense of losing games like OKC? Seems like the Knicks have an old school way of doing their dev thing. You think they should change it up against a team like OKC and the like? That would be beneficial to the young guys or just the watching audience?
After that, the Knicks best bench players have missed a ton of time. Mitch, Deuce, Precious, Shamet. I think we can agree on that? It’s hard to develop the bench when they not around.
The ball movement does not flow with Payne on the floor for whatever reason, he is kinda slow to react or a bit sticky or looks for his own. Brunson fucked up the second half and hunted for his own and failed.
We’ll keep falling behind the crop of the league if we keep having this limited mindset regarding the bench. No, you develop it just as OKC, Boston, Cleveland and Memphis have.
The Knicks have recently developed iHart, IQ, Deuce off their bench.
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Edwards: Knicks can’t grab signature win vs. Thunder but are heading in right direction
James L. Edwards III
OKLAHOMA CITY — This wasn’t the Toronto Raptors, Washington Wizards, Utah Jazz or other bottom-feeder team the New York Knicks have faced in recent weeks. This wasn’t the blah Minnesota Timberwolves or OK San Antonio Spurs, either. This wasn’t the mangled Orlando Magic. The New York Knicks’ opponent Friday night, with a nine-game win streak on the line, was one of the NBA’s best.
A Knicks-Oklahoma City Thunder early-January matchup was as important of a regular-season game as you’ll find in the dim days of the NBA calendar. No one wanted to acknowledge that, but it was. New York needed to prove its lengthy win streak, most of which came against teams that have the worst offenses in basketball, was more than just a really good team playing bully to some really bad ones. The Knicks, who were 0-3 against the top three seeds in either conference going into the game, needed a signature win.
New York didn’t get that, losing 117-107 to the ultra-impressive Thunder, who played the night before. However, the Knicks showed they can play with any team in basketball. A month ago, I didn’t believe that.
New York didn’t lose this game because it wasn’t as talented. It spent much of the night displaying the greatness of one of the best starting units in the game. The Knicks didn’t lose because they were out-coached. Tom Thibodeau and his staff did a good job of creating a game plan to contain the likes of Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and Jalen Williams, just like Oklahoma City coach Mark Daigneault did a good job of trying to make life difficult for Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns. The turnovers were nearly identical on both sides. So were the rebounds. The free-throw attempts weren’t far off. This was a slugfest between a great team and a really good team that was decided in the game’s trenches.
“There were two or three scramble plays where they got the loose ball and it converted into 3s,” Thibodeau said about what he thought was the difference. “The last part of the defense has to be the strongest. That was probably the biggest thing. It was a hard-fought game, and in the end, it’s getting the loose balls and making effort plays.”
Thibodeau has talked ad nauseam about daily improvements, a cliche yet reasonable objective for a team that underwent such a huge makeover this offseason and has title aspirations. And it is possible to show that progress without winning. You don’t have to win a measuring-stick game to inch closer to where you have to go.
For the first 42 minutes, the Knicks were as good as or better than the Thunder. The Knicks’ second quarter was as good of a stretch as they’ve put together all season, and that’s saying something for one of the league’s best offenses. Those elite 3-and-D wings — OG Anunoby and Mikal Bridges — the team spent the past year acquiring were everything New York expects and more. By halftime, with the Knicks leading by 12, Anunoby and Bridges combined to go 13-for-21 from the floor for 34 points. The duo along with Josh Hart stifled the Thunder, holding them to 8-of-21 shooting in the second quarter. Few teams have done that to Oklahoma City this season.
The Knicks offense can be as scary as it gets. Anyone can get you at any time. At halftime, every starter except Towns had double-digit points, and he went into the locker room with 8 points and 13 rebounds. Nothing to sneeze at.
Bridges was brought here to make shots and slow the NBA’s best guards. There’s no stopping someone like Gilgeous-Alexander, but Bridges did as good as anyone this season at making life difficult. He was the primary defender on Gilgeous-Alexander and helped hold him to under 50 percent shooting. The Oklahoma City star has done that only five times since Nov. 27.
The early-season concerns about Bridges are so far in the past that I shouldn’t have even brought them up.
“Whoever we’re playing, whoever I’m guarding, I just watch their film,” Bridges said. “I think Shai, guys like that, who I’ve played against multiple times in the West, going against multiple times, have more reps guarding him. Shai is really good.”
In the third quarter, the Knicks did what the great teams do: take a jab and uppercut back. The NBA is a game of runs, and New York gave the Thunder a boost by turning the ball over four times within the first few minutes of the second half. Yet, the Knicks still led by double digits with just over three minutes to play in the third quarter.
Ultimately, New York lost because of the loose balls, timely second-chance points by the Thunder and great players like Gilgeous-Alexander and Williams being able to muster up just enough late in the game to help their team see it through. Oklahoma City flashed all of the characteristics of a team with continuity and added a player in Isaiah Hartenstein who, as Knicks fans know, can fit on any team.
You could point to Oklahoma City’s bench production versus that of the Knicks, who were without Miles McBride, I guess. The Thunder’s bench outscored the Knicks’ 44-5. But if there was a game to play your best players big minutes in, this was it. Unleashing the second unit wasn’t going to change the trajectory, especially with McBride out. I had no issue with Thibodeau playing all of his starters 40-plus minutes in regulation, something that hasn’t happened in New York since 2013 and last happened a year ago when the Golden State Warriors did it. The players didn’t, either.
As far as regular-season games go, it rarely gets bigger than this.
“At the end of the day, the fourth quarter is the time for you to go out there and win the game,” Hart said. “At that point, it’s just competitiveness and adrenaline pushing you through. I’ve always said that I want to be out there as much as I can. So at that point, we just have to make sure we execute.”
Defensively, New York did enough for 40 minutes. That wasn’t always the case earlier in the season. Offensively, it had an uncharacteristically bad 3-point shooting night (9-for-32) and still nearly took down the Western Conference’s top seed. Only one team, the Cleveland Cavaliers, shoots the deep ball with more accuracy than the Knicks this season.
From a national perspective, a victory over the Thunder would have validated a nine-game win streak against weaker foes. It would have shifted the narrative to include New York among the league’s elite. The Knicks aren’t quite there yet, but Friday showed they’re closer than they once were. And at the end of the day, as it pertains to basketball in January, that’s what matters.
The Knicks are going in the right direction.
Kolek and Huk are ballers and get no time. Cam is good but has limitations as a playmaker. So the sole reliance on him as the PG is dumb. Huk has provided good minutes everytime he is called. The problem is he barely gets called. Kolek is a knock down shooter and a way better playmaker than Cam. Both of them should be getting consistant minutes.
However, needs to plant some seeds for the future to prosper. Understand that the kids are developing during practice but do feel that Thibs needs to use regular season games to give those guys some run that means something.
Even if it means a few more losses. No experience like game experience.
martin wrote:Knicksfan wrote:I’m so tired of this narrative that you have to wait until you have all stars on the bench too for it to be useful. FTS. That’s not what the current great teams are doing. They have actually been progressively playing decent players, mixing and matching with their current stars as they keep them both in rhythm and contributing. This idea that we have to keep the trading carousel going until you hit the jackpot for the bench is really misguided.This team has a mixture of young talent and veteran talent. Key word: talent. Yes, these guys have shown that they can play in the NBA. Can they make mistakes and cost us games? Sure! Same applies for the starters, who are slowly being ran to the ground playing 40+ mins constantly. Payne and Kolek can certainly contribute more than 0-10mins they get. Sims is freaking alive for a few minutes in between also using Precious to spell Towns and OG. Same with Huk. Shamet is ramping up but he can definitely go up a few more minutes on his turns. Deuce being out hasn’t helped, true, but even with him available we’ve seen this discrepancy on minutes.
The thing is, I’m not arguing we need to run a full backup lineup out there for extended minutes. But there is no real strategy in using the bench wisely with some starters to change pace and give more responsibilities to the bench. This is a huge mistake that will prove terrible come playoff time. The same way we used the first 20-so games to get this starting lineup acclimated, the same needs to be done with the bench, yet it’s being seldomly used. I hate that from Thibs. We’ll keep falling behind the crop of the league if we keep having this limited mindset regarding the bench. No, you develop it just as OKC, Boston, Cleveland and Memphis have.
At a macro level, how do you develop the Knicks bench? The key guys are Deuce, Mitch, Precious, Shamet, Payne, Sims. After that, it’s rookies: Kolek, Huk, Dadiet.
I don’t think the initial bolded is an accurate detail of what’s going on. The second bolded regarding Deuce if flat wrong, he has gotten a very consistent 25 minutes a night when healthy.
I think that playing all the starters 40 minutes is stupid. I also think that playing your bench minutes when they are sucking is also stupid.
Gameflow: https://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20250...
The Knicks were up like 13 midway through 3rd, and that’s when the bench substitutions start. It was the Brunson, Mikal, Precious, Payne, Shamet minutes that lost the lead from mid 3rd to early fourth, and then it was a free fall after that.
I guess you could bring back in those guys that lost you lead or staggered them even more later in the 4th and hope they don’t fuck up again?
Love it or hate it, the rookies are on a development program. Folks just don’t love it cause maybe they can’t kinda sorta see them play and be involved? Are you a win at any cost fan or do you believe in developing the young kids at the expense of losing games like OKC? Seems like the Knicks have an old school way of doing their dev thing. You think they should change it up against a team like OKC and the like? That would be beneficial to the young guys or just the watching audience?
After that, the Knicks best bench players have missed a ton of time. Mitch, Deuce, Precious, Shamet. I think we can agree on that? It’s hard to develop the bench when they not around.
The ball movement does not flow with Payne on the floor for whatever reason, he is kinda slow to react or a bit sticky or looks for his own. Brunson fucked up the second half and hunted for his own and failed.
We’ll keep falling behind the crop of the league if we keep having this limited mindset regarding the bench. No, you develop it just as OKC, Boston, Cleveland and Memphis have.The Knicks have recently developed iHart, IQ, Deuce off their bench.
First of all, what I'm talking about here isn't rocket science: make better player pairings in certain spots during the game where you can take more advantage of the guys on the bench. Not saying play the whole bench for longer minutes, but combining them with some starters for stability while some starters can rest. It's basic yet not how we mostly operate. Talk about how teams like the four I mentioned use their bench and their rotations. Developing a bench means finding lineups where you can significantly use a bench player long enough to rest a key starter.
The initial bolded is in reference to the believe here that we don't have anything of value to actually relief starters of some of their minutes and we need trades to get there. You are entitled to your opinion, but when you see the level of talent that is performing in some of the elite teams you really have to wonder why do we have to rely so much on our starters playing heavy minutes. Anyone wants better talent on their bench, but sometimes you get that by developing, case in point Deuce.
The second bolded regarding Deuce is flat out wrong if you fail to understand that I'm just alluding to the recent fact that he has been injured in the last few games and that has disrupted our bench. No idea how that can be a point of contention other than you misunderstanding. He definitely has been getting healthy minutes but probably this injury problems have limited some of the impact we expected from him before the season started.
Your third point, again, call it however you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that very often you have our starters playing close to or past the 40mins mark. Just check the boxscores. Three of the top 10 leaders in minutes in the whole association are in NYK and that doesn't happen out of nowhere. Stupid? Good argument. And playing your bench minutes when they are sucking is also stupid. Ok, I'm glad you aren't the coach because that should be a reason to make adjustments and not just have a simplistic view like that one. That mentality for the bench of one mistake and you are out leads to what? Overuse of the starting lineup. And Im talking about the whole season.
I think my posts regarding this subject have been general enough to not be taken as a simple response to last night's game. We had diverse problems that many here have correctly pointed out. But my points are regarding a huge concern that I have, that is definitely not new, but when facing a great opponent like OKC it definitely pops up and reminds you of past defeats against the elite teams. And the fact that all of those teams seem to be thriving at doing what I'm mentioning just highlights the issue.
It's kinda funny that an example of this can actually be traced back to the first month of the season. Our best backup big was Sims. He was needed, and while we can all agree that he made mistakes and had issues, he mostly outperformed anyone's expectations providing solid defense and rebounding. Now he's vanished, not even a brief stint until he is taken out after making a mistake. At least back then it was good the commitment to using him even if his leash was ultra short. The thing is that this is a long season and while some matchups will need more time from the starting lineup, many times you will have the chance to play people through their mistakes as they adapt into the gameplan. We did that with our starters, but not extending this to other pieces of the bench is shortsighted.
We are dead last in bench minutes average at 11.9. This is crazy for bench usage especially when many of our starters have had injury issues before. The second worst? Sacramento at 14.3 while the rest of thr league is between 14.5 and 21.7. The Knicks have been up by a lot in many games and the starters have remained there. The chances to use more of the bench have been there. This isn't about OKC, its about the whole season so far. We are already seeing signs of health issues from our starters.
If FO wants him to play a bench, then they need to figure some things out.
We fans act like there is not plan. There is one. We just are not privy to it.
Or the timing of one.
Reality is we are not deep enough to truly contend on January 4th, 2025.
We could not fathom Leon doing what he has done already two years ago. So lets not panic.
He might flat out tell you to cash in for this year contender might be too steep. The true window might be year two and beyond.
But león don't talk to us, or anyone. We can only guess.
Basically saying Thibs does play his bench IF he trusts them.
Posted noted - J-Hart, Donte, IQ, IHart, Grimes, Burks - all averaged 20-30 MMG.
Right now I assume he trusts Deuce and would trust Mitch/Precious --- the problem becomes can we find an 8th guy Thibs trusts.
I thought Payne had played fine but seems Thibs has turned on him for whatever reason.
As I've said before I think we need to go all in trade 2 or 3 guys to find 1 guy Thibs loves (like he loved Josh/Donte/IHart) - someone without a doubt he will play.
There aren't many.
LivingLegend wrote:Read a decent post over on RGM.Basically saying Thibs does play his bench IF he trusts them.
Posted noted - J-Hart, Donte, IQ, IHart, Grimes, Burks - all averaged 20-30 MMG.
Right now I assume he trusts Deuce and would trust Mitch/Precious --- the problem becomes can we find an 8th guy Thibs trusts.
I thought Payne had played fine but seems Thibs has turned on him for whatever reason.
As I've said before I think we need to go all in trade 2 or 3 guys to find 1 guy Thibs loves (like he loved Josh/Donte/IHart) - someone without a doubt he will play.
There aren't many.
Payne is not an every night player on a good team. He was a bargain bin pickup for us. Shamet probably isn’t either but he’s closer. We need to trade for a guy and then we’ll have 3 guys who are at the requisite level for Thibs trust. Then Payne or Shamet becomes the 9th guy. We are one bench piece away from everything making sense IMO. Need another Deuce caliber player. Thibs will play a bench - we’ve seen it here over the years. Some seasons our bench was our most potent weapon.