Knicks · GameThread: even later game tonight, Clipjoint at 1030pm MSG (page 5)
martin wrote:Clean wrote:Don't know if its a plan or not and to be honest it does not matter. That is the result of their or should I say Thibs actions. From the beginning of the season Huk has out played Sims every chance he got. Yet no matter what he never got above Sims in the rotation. For months we got to see Sims contribute nothing while Huk sat on the bench.This is the great difficulty with coaching and giving players long enough leash to find their footing and get a rhythm.
I look at it completely from the opposite end of things. Thibs gave Sims a clear chance to succeed, a clear defined role, and a 15 game stretch with the opportunity to swim and prove himself. Sims failed. But this is exactly what every single player in league wants. It is well defined for both parties. It’s development. Thibs chose Sims development over perhaps the short term burst of playing the 58th pick. Development. It’s what we want? Or just wins over everything?
This is how you build a team over the long run and also in-season. He did it with Reddish and others. Obi the same early on.
BTW, this is exactly what you are asking Thibs to give Kolek.
I’d guess that Kolek is learning the Knicks playbook while also studying opponent tendencies. The tendencies are the tough parts, and the counters to all the playbook stuff is the second hardest. Elite talent types get away with not needing this as much cause of their talent, you can just throw them to the fire.
IMO that was to build value so they could move him and nothing else. They knew what they had in Sims coming into this season.
Deuce held his own with his defense. Took over two years for his shot to evolve.
If not, he'd be gone.
IQ could shoot and when the shots fell he got the quick hook. He had to exceed in playmaking and get to the rim better. He did and earned his minutes. Kolek has yet to. His defense? not great. Playmaking? A guy that can't blow by his defenders needs the threat of an outside shot to pull his defender in. Kolek can do it in the Gleague but not at the NBA level yet.
This is a pro league not a developmental one. This team is striving to win with its roster constructed. Payne clearly beat him out. If Kolek had the physical gifts and its not clicking then perhaps its mental? I think the kid is very strong and fundamentally sound. But he is not acclimating to the speed and power. Yet. Deuce and RJ played on teams with far lower expectations and were given rope.
Huk bad injury in his first start. That was not good. He was earning his time and beat out Sims who was reliable. By that, Thibs knew what he had with him. Not much but enough.
Kolek was sold to fans as one given his age could step in and be NBA ready. We are not seeing much from that. What warrants him being given more time? Maybe not being injured this week? Maybe there is a plan to play him but he got hurt?
Nalod wrote:
Deuce held his own with his defense. Took over two years for his shot to evolve.
If not, he'd be gone.
IQ could shoot and when the shots fell he got the quick hook. He had to exceed in playmaking and get to the rim better. He did and earned his minutes. Kolek has yet to. His defense? not great. Playmaking? A guy that can't blow by his defenders needs the threat of an outside shot to pull his defender in. Kolek can do it in the Gleague but not at the NBA level yet.
This is a pro league not a developmental one. This team is striving to win with its roster constructed. Payne clearly beat him out. If Kolek had the physical gifts and its not clicking then perhaps its mental? I think the kid is very strong and fundamentally sound. But he is not acclimating to the speed and power. Yet. Deuce and RJ played on teams with far lower expectations and were given rope.Huk bad injury in his first start. That was not good. He was earning his time and beat out Sims who was reliable. By that, Thibs knew what he had with him. Not much but enough.
Kolek was sold to fans as one given his age could step in and be NBA ready. We are not seeing much from that. What warrants him being given more time? Maybe not being injured this week? Maybe there is a plan to play him but he got hurt?
His passing ability and knack for getting players easier baskets.
Clean wrote:martin wrote:Clean wrote:Don't know if its a plan or not and to be honest it does not matter. That is the result of their or should I say Thibs actions. From the beginning of the season Huk has out played Sims every chance he got. Yet no matter what he never got above Sims in the rotation. For months we got to see Sims contribute nothing while Huk sat on the bench.This is the great difficulty with coaching and giving players long enough leash to find their footing and get a rhythm.
I look at it completely from the opposite end of things. Thibs gave Sims a clear chance to succeed, a clear defined role, and a 15 game stretch with the opportunity to swim and prove himself. Sims failed. But this is exactly what every single player in league wants. It is well defined for both parties. It’s development. Thibs chose Sims development over perhaps the short term burst of playing the 58th pick. Development. It’s what we want? Or just wins over everything?
This is how you build a team over the long run and also in-season. He did it with Reddish and others. Obi the same early on.
BTW, this is exactly what you are asking Thibs to give Kolek.
I’d guess that Kolek is learning the Knicks playbook while also studying opponent tendencies. The tendencies are the tough parts, and the counters to all the playbook stuff is the second hardest. Elite talent types get away with not needing this as much cause of their talent, you can just throw them to the fire.
We must have our wires crossed because I don't see how Sims and Kolek are anything alike this season. One has gotten playing time and shown nothing for months. Kolek has gotten next to no time. If Kolek got the amount of non garbage time Sims got and showed no ability to contribute I would be OK with him sitting on the bench because obviously he's not ready.
Sims -
Total Minutes played for the Knicks - 422Kolek -
Total minutes played for the Knicks - 148 and a majority of it is garbage time.
I’m trying to let you know how methodical the Knicks are in terms of giving guys chances to play and then how they go about it. How they seem to want to develop their young players in the context of what the rest of the team is doing. Every team does this differently because they have different expectations depending on how competitive their respective teams are and what their focuses are. It’s my guess.
There seems to be a very very deliberate path forward for each type of player. Kolek is obviously on the Deuce plan. Same with Huk and the rest.
It’s so you don’t have to wonder why the coaching staff has not played Kolek more and perhaps the why’s behind it. I’d be glad for more input and guesses at different observations. I don’t ask why they are not just doing it my way of thinking assuming I know better, I am wondering why and am trying to guess what is going on, cause I am definitely not better. That’s my lens and perspective.
Sims was at the end of the line here in NY, especially with Mitch coming back and Huk in line, all with KAT in mind. I’d guess that Huk’s abilities hastened Sims timeline. They decided to give Sims his shot to prove himself, ~10-15 games with fairly consistent minutes in a defined role. Do well in that role, get more responsibilities and involvement and be a part of the normal rotation. He failed.
Right now they know they don’t immediately need Kolek over the course of the first parts of season outside out of an injury situation. But he will get that same opportunity that Reddish and everyone got, including IQ. IQ started on “second base” development step next to Rose off bench to simplify his PG decision making. It’s why he was stuck as a spacer first and why Kolek will see the same. It’s the easiest thing to do and the simplest thing Kolek can show he is capable of doing to move on to the next step. Reddish and Sims both failed the first base stuff. But Sims got a very solid opportunity, it’s what every NBA players want. And when those players fail, they get sent to teams that they could perhaps get another chance (Obi, Sims, Grimes). Free agents will notice this. Agents will notice this. Perspective rookies will notice this. Yes, the next guy in line will absolutely take a chance with Leon cause Leon has shown his cards and how he handles player involvement and development. Just put in the work and sit tight cause that opportunity is coming. In fact, it’s what every person in a job wants. Literally everyone.
1) get rookies, young players up to speed on NBA stuff. 2) shore up their weaknesses. 3) get them time to grow thru the GLeague as appropriate. 4) when injury opportunity or whatnot presents itself, give player a chance.
It’s methodical. It’s my best guess. Cause the Knicks keep doing it over and over again, at some point we really don’t need to wonder why.
Where and when talent and potential meet hard work, then you’ll see guys get playing time and thrive. IQ, RJ, Randle, iHart, Mitch, Deuce, Grimes. Sometimes you succeed, sometimes you level off, sometimes you fail. I’d go as far as saying they have been pushing Brunson and KAT in the same ways albeit at a different level. One is handling it better than the other IMHO. I don’t wonder why the Knicks ran end of game plays for RJ and Randle over and over again when we all knew Brunson was probably better at it; they needed to stress test those guys to see how they handed those situations and if they had it in them. You don’t find out unless you try. We could certainly have seen Deuce play more PG minutes during his first years but it seemed like team wanted him to shore up the shooting cause they had Rose, IQ and whatnot already doing those things ahead of him. Seems to have paid off albeit we didn’t get to see him on court more. Win some, lose some.
I don’t think I’d include Donte on a young player deliberate dev plan but he had to wait for his shot (cause Knicks wanted to give Grimes his shot first) but it didn’t hold Donte back at all, just delayed his entry some. Knicks nor Donte weren’t worse off cause of it but it was perhaps delayed. Kolek and team won’t be worse off in the long run either. Knicks could have started iHart over Mitch but they kept at it. Didn’t seem to hurt iHart’s accession and impact at all, probably allowed him to get up to speed more.
No system or method is perfect and the Knicks could be forgoing early, lesser Linsanity-like opportunities with Kolek but this is the path the Knicks seem to favor.
Knicks are not going to randomly pull guys out of rotation or inject a new person into the rotation on a whim. It’s not their style, for better or worse. We should recognize this now. They are methodical. Same with front office. They are not without mistakes, but they correct themselves pretty well.
OR, or we can sit back and play the fan game of blindly regurgitating that Thibs never develops anyone and sit back and seem satisfied with nonsense in a feedback loop of one while staring into a deep abyss and then frustratedly wonder what is going on.
jaydh wrote:martin wrote:Clean wrote:Don't know if its a plan or not and to be honest it does not matter. That is the result of their or should I say Thibs actions. From the beginning of the season Huk has out played Sims every chance he got. Yet no matter what he never got above Sims in the rotation. For months we got to see Sims contribute nothing while Huk sat on the bench.This is the great difficulty with coaching and giving players long enough leash to find their footing and get a rhythm.
I look at it completely from the opposite end of things. Thibs gave Sims a clear chance to succeed, a clear defined role, and a 15 game stretch with the opportunity to swim and prove himself. Sims failed. But this is exactly what every single player in league wants. It is well defined for both parties. It’s development. Thibs chose Sims development over perhaps the short term burst of playing the 58th pick. Development. It’s what we want? Or just wins over everything?
This is how you build a team over the long run and also in-season. He did it with Reddish and others. Obi the same early on.
BTW, this is exactly what you are asking Thibs to give Kolek.
I’d guess that Kolek is learning the Knicks playbook while also studying opponent tendencies. The tendencies are the tough parts, and the counters to all the playbook stuff is the second hardest. Elite talent types get away with not needing this as much cause of their talent, you can just throw them to the fire.
IMO that was to build value so they could move him and nothing else. They knew what they had in Sims coming into this season.
That seems quite short sighted.