Knicks · GameThread: even later game tonight, Clipjoint at 1030pm MSG (page 4)

martin wrote:

Clean wrote:I have said nothing about Kolek not being ready to play because chances are he was not going to get meaningful minutes anyway. You guys forget who our coach is? Kolek at max is getting 10 minutes if he plays at all. The first mistake he does he will get sat for the rest of the game. Like the video above said all these things are what Thibs has done for years. People would argue with me about Thibs issues as a coach years ago and now all those same issues are coming back like they always do.

This is his moment. It’s Kolek Time.

I didn’t catch most of last night’s game but I’d guess we solidly know Deuce is not the PG to get things moving and would be better off ball. Cam has moments but he is limited.

Last man standing. What is the short white guy version of Linsanity?

Huk got his time, Kolek is up. Hopefully

I hope you are right.

nyvector16 wrote:Not playing Kolek this whole season really hurt us as he would be much better prepared had he gotten some burn.

This Brunson injury may be a blessing in disguise as we need team ball to win and Kolek brings that out. As others have mentioned, the team often just gets out of the way and Brunson goes Hero ball. That will help us in clutch moments in playoffs, but you can't play the whole game this way. We have to play team ball.

It was short sighted. From before the season began we could tell Kolek was the only player on the roster that could potentially be a playmaker behind Brunson. A smart person would have prepared for a Brunson injury by giving Kolek time during the easy months. Instead Thibs let him rot on the bench and overplayed the starters while we were in the easy stretch of our sched. The mistakes could have been ironed out by now but Kolek will have to figure it out on the fly vs elite teams now. That is assuming he gets a legit chance and with Thibs as coach the odds are not in his favor.

jaydh wrote:Isn't kolek currently sitting out with an injury?

No, GLeague assignment

Clean wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:Not playing Kolek this whole season really hurt us as he would be much better prepared had he gotten some burn.

This Brunson injury may be a blessing in disguise as we need team ball to win and Kolek brings that out. As others have mentioned, the team often just gets out of the way and Brunson goes Hero ball. That will help us in clutch moments in playoffs, but you can't play the whole game this way. We have to play team ball.

It was short sighted. From before the season began we could tell Kolek was the only player on the roster that could potentially be a playmaker behind Brunson. A smart person would have prepared for a Brunson injury by giving Kolek time during the easy months. Instead Thibs let him rot on the bench and overplayed the starters while we were in the easy stretch of our sched. The mistakes could have been ironed out by now but Kolek will have to figure it out on the fly vs elite teams now. That is assuming he gets a legit chance and with Thibs as coach the odds are not in his favor.

You OK with the team having a much worse record at the expense of the above? I definitely am.

It would have takes Cam out of rotation as well I’d assume, that type of player would never sign with Knicks at vet min price.

OK with the defense being much worse too?

Those are only the tip of the iceberg of downside, real possibilities. Plus a lot of others.

I’m AOK with it but my expectations are pretty even keeled and I don’t call for everyone to get fired after every game and when the losses add up.

Did Deuce rot on the bench during his first years to you or did he take the time to develop while out of sight? Or is it just development when we can see it on the court?

I’m curious

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martin wrote:

jaydh wrote:Isn't kolek currently sitting out with an injury?

No, GLeague assignment

https://www.rotowire.com/basketball/headlines/tyler-kolek-injury-sits-out-thursday-486414

jaydh wrote:

martin wrote:

jaydh wrote:Isn't kolek currently sitting out with an injury?

No, GLeague assignment

https://www.rotowire.com/basketball/headlines/tyler-kolek-injury-sits-out-thursday-486414

Ah thanks. Now we know why he didn’t get to LA. On assignment but also hurt.

martin wrote:

Clean wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:Not playing Kolek this whole season really hurt us as he would be much better prepared had he gotten some burn.

This Brunson injury may be a blessing in disguise as we need team ball to win and Kolek brings that out. As others have mentioned, the team often just gets out of the way and Brunson goes Hero ball. That will help us in clutch moments in playoffs, but you can't play the whole game this way. We have to play team ball.

It was short sighted. From before the season began we could tell Kolek was the only player on the roster that could potentially be a playmaker behind Brunson. A smart person would have prepared for a Brunson injury by giving Kolek time during the easy months. Instead Thibs let him rot on the bench and overplayed the starters while we were in the easy stretch of our sched. The mistakes could have been ironed out by now but Kolek will have to figure it out on the fly vs elite teams now. That is assuming he gets a legit chance and with Thibs as coach the odds are not in his favor.

You OK with the team having a much worse record at the expense of the above? I definitely am.

It would have takes Cam out of rotation as well I’d assume, that type of player would never sign with Knicks at vet min price.

OK with the defense being much worse too?

Those are only the tip of the iceberg of downside, real possibilities. Plus a lot of others.

I’m AOK with it but my expectations are pretty even keeled and I don’t call for everyone to get fired after every game and when the losses add up.

Did Deuce rot on the bench during his first years to you or did he take the time to develop while out of sight? Or is it just development when we can see it on the court?

I’m curious

Do you remember who I am? I don't care about the regular season. I only care about the playoffs. If by playing Kolek we lost a few extra games but add another weapon for the playoffs I am just fine with that. This team without him is going nowhere. We have enough proof of that vs the top teams in the league.

You made a lot of assumptions. You assume we will play worse with Kolek rather than the other two. You assume our defense will be much worse. You can assume some positives might happen also. Our team is filled with players who need to be setup. Brunson and Kolek are the only players who can do that on this team. Even if your negative assumptions are correct they might be outweighed by the positives he brings from setting up other players. The problem is he has no chemistry with the team because he never plays. Your only playmaker on the team besides Brunson has no chemistry with the team because he never plays. Do you hear how dumb that sounds? Just to avoid missunderstandings I am not calling you dumb. This is more of a shot at Thibs.

On the Mcbride topic you must have forgot about me when dealing with him not getting minutes. I was on his train since his rookie season. My thoughts on playing young players has never changed when they show promise. Kolek and Huk showed promise. Our other young players are not ready so they can stay in the G-League. McBride showed promise when he played back in the day. Remember he always had great +/- when he got time. His shot was not good but that was because he never got consistant time. No one is going to have a consistant shot when you play in one game for 5 minutes every other month.

Clean wrote:

martin wrote:

Clean wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:Not playing Kolek this whole season really hurt us as he would be much better prepared had he gotten some burn.

This Brunson injury may be a blessing in disguise as we need team ball to win and Kolek brings that out. As others have mentioned, the team often just gets out of the way and Brunson goes Hero ball. That will help us in clutch moments in playoffs, but you can't play the whole game this way. We have to play team ball.

It was short sighted. From before the season began we could tell Kolek was the only player on the roster that could potentially be a playmaker behind Brunson. A smart person would have prepared for a Brunson injury by giving Kolek time during the easy months. Instead Thibs let him rot on the bench and overplayed the starters while we were in the easy stretch of our sched. The mistakes could have been ironed out by now but Kolek will have to figure it out on the fly vs elite teams now. That is assuming he gets a legit chance and with Thibs as coach the odds are not in his favor.

You OK with the team having a much worse record at the expense of the above? I definitely am.

It would have takes Cam out of rotation as well I’d assume, that type of player would never sign with Knicks at vet min price.

OK with the defense being much worse too?

Those are only the tip of the iceberg of downside, real possibilities. Plus a lot of others.

I’m AOK with it but my expectations are pretty even keeled and I don’t call for everyone to get fired after every game and when the losses add up.

Did Deuce rot on the bench during his first years to you or did he take the time to develop while out of sight? Or is it just development when we can see it on the court?

I’m curious

Do you remember who I am? I don't care about the regular season. I only care about the playoffs. If by playing Kolek we lost a few extra games but add another weapon for the playoffs I am just fine with that. This team without him is going nowhere. We have enough proof of that vs the top teams in the league.

You made a lot of assumptions. You assume we will play worse with Kolek rather than the other two. You assume our defense will be much worse. You can assume some positives might happen also. Our team is filled with players who need to be setup. Brunson and Kolek are the only players who can do that on this team. Even if your negative assumptions are correct they might be outweighed by the positives he brings from setting up other players. The problem is he has no chemistry with the team because he never plays. Your only playmaker on the team besides Brunson has no chemistry with the team because he never plays. Do you hear how dumb that sounds? Just to avoid missunderstandings I am not calling you dumb. This is more of a shot at Thibs.

On the Mcbride topic you must have forgot about me when dealing with him not getting minutes. I was on his train since his rookie season. My thoughts on playing young players has never changed when they show promise. Kolek and Huk showed promise. Our other young players are not ready so they can stay in the G-League. McBride showed promise when he played back in the day. Remember he always had great +/- when he got time. His shot was not good but that was because he never got consistant time. No one is going to have a consistant shot when you play in one game for 5 minutes every other month.

Feel like you made the same. The Knicks have expectations as a team and you seem to not take that perspective insofar as I can tell. You and I can both be OK with games lost but the organization and players will not. Nor will 99% of fans out there, we see that after every loss. It’s how coaches and FO’s get fired and teams fall apart.

Your base assumption is that the entire coaching staff is watching the young players every day, not noticing the minutes the starters are playing, and just forgetting that a very playable PG is just rotting there even though they desperate to win games?

That they may not have set in place a dev plan and try to keep to it because they like to rot players on bench? Thats the plan of how Knicks rookies are on?

Or that maybe some other decision is being made?

Linsanity does happen.

Clean wrote:

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What the hell happened to our offense. For a few we was on a historic pace and now its trash. Did our defense improve while our offense took a step back? No, its still trash. How the hell is our record so good when we are trash on both ends?

Out offense is non-existent outside of KAT and Brunson ISO. Oh and Bridges ISO also. The historic pace is only because of those 2 players. Thibs learned ne tricks and adapted and started doing offense things? Nah bruh, it's Brunson and KAT. There are no plays that work without ISO , that's why Kolek is useless on this team. And Thibs turned out to be limited, who would have thunk it...

martin wrote:

Clean wrote:

martin wrote:

Clean wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:Not playing Kolek this whole season really hurt us as he would be much better prepared had he gotten some burn.

This Brunson injury may be a blessing in disguise as we need team ball to win and Kolek brings that out. As others have mentioned, the team often just gets out of the way and Brunson goes Hero ball. That will help us in clutch moments in playoffs, but you can't play the whole game this way. We have to play team ball.

It was short sighted. From before the season began we could tell Kolek was the only player on the roster that could potentially be a playmaker behind Brunson. A smart person would have prepared for a Brunson injury by giving Kolek time during the easy months. Instead Thibs let him rot on the bench and overplayed the starters while we were in the easy stretch of our sched. The mistakes could have been ironed out by now but Kolek will have to figure it out on the fly vs elite teams now. That is assuming he gets a legit chance and with Thibs as coach the odds are not in his favor.

You OK with the team having a much worse record at the expense of the above? I definitely am.

It would have takes Cam out of rotation as well I’d assume, that type of player would never sign with Knicks at vet min price.

OK with the defense being much worse too?

Those are only the tip of the iceberg of downside, real possibilities. Plus a lot of others.

I’m AOK with it but my expectations are pretty even keeled and I don’t call for everyone to get fired after every game and when the losses add up.

Did Deuce rot on the bench during his first years to you or did he take the time to develop while out of sight? Or is it just development when we can see it on the court?

I’m curious

Do you remember who I am? I don't care about the regular season. I only care about the playoffs. If by playing Kolek we lost a few extra games but add another weapon for the playoffs I am just fine with that. This team without him is going nowhere. We have enough proof of that vs the top teams in the league.

You made a lot of assumptions. You assume we will play worse with Kolek rather than the other two. You assume our defense will be much worse. You can assume some positives might happen also. Our team is filled with players who need to be setup. Brunson and Kolek are the only players who can do that on this team. Even if your negative assumptions are correct they might be outweighed by the positives he brings from setting up other players. The problem is he has no chemistry with the team because he never plays. Your only playmaker on the team besides Brunson has no chemistry with the team because he never plays. Do you hear how dumb that sounds? Just to avoid missunderstandings I am not calling you dumb. This is more of a shot at Thibs.

On the Mcbride topic you must have forgot about me when dealing with him not getting minutes. I was on his train since his rookie season. My thoughts on playing young players has never changed when they show promise. Kolek and Huk showed promise. Our other young players are not ready so they can stay in the G-League. McBride showed promise when he played back in the day. Remember he always had great +/- when he got time. His shot was not good but that was because he never got consistant time. No one is going to have a consistant shot when you play in one game for 5 minutes every other month.

Feel like you made the same. The Knicks have expectations as a team and you seem to not take that perspective insofar as I can tell. You and I can both be OK with games lost but the organization and players will not. Nor will 99% of fans out there, we see that after every loss. It’s how coaches and FO’s get fired and teams fall apart.

Your base assumption is that the entire coaching staff is watching the young players every day, not noticing the minutes the starters are playing, and just forgetting that a very playable PG is just rotting there even though they desperate to win games?

That they may not have set in place a dev plan and try to keep to it because they like to rot players on bench? Thats the plan of how Knicks rookies are on?

Or that maybe some other decision is being made?

Linsanity does happen.

Clean wrote:Don't know if its a plan or not and to be honest it does not matter. That is the result of their or should I say Thibs actions. From the beginning of the season Huk has out played Sims every chance he got. Yet no matter what he never got above Sims in the rotation. For months we got to see Sims contribute nothing while Huk sat on the bench.

This is the great difficulty with coaching and giving players long enough leash to find their footing and get a rhythm.

I look at it completely from the opposite end of things. Thibs gave Sims a clear chance to succeed, a clear defined role, and a 15 game stretch with the opportunity to swim and prove himself. Sims failed. But this is exactly what every single player in league wants. It is well defined for both parties. It’s development. Thibs chose Sims development over perhaps the short term burst of playing the 58th pick. Development. It’s what we want? Or just wins over everything?

This is how you build a team over the long run and also in-season. He did it with Reddish and others. Obi the same early on.

BTW, this is exactly what you are asking Thibs to give Kolek.

I’d guess that Kolek is learning the Knicks playbook while also studying opponent tendencies. The tendencies are the tough parts, and the counters to all the playbook stuff is the second hardest. Elite talent types get away with not needing this as much cause of their talent, you can just throw them to the fire.

VDesai wrote:Deuce was horrid at PG, but mostly bc the 3 isnt falling. Payne played PG better but he also missed every shot.

The only guy who made shots was Bridges and he took 12 shots. Thats unacceptable with Brunson out. Where js the aggression.

Too many turnovers with guys not comfortable with initiating

Kolek will help if he can get a flight.

People want to scapegoat Josh but 20 fucking rebounds that mostly started transition offense. The only we could score.

We actually need TJ Warren bc he is a bucket getter.

Josh rebounding is tremendous - can't argue/complain about that ---- I have focused on his D both on/off ball, his TOs, his failure to shoot the ball and most of all he is our worst on/off player. We have been worse with him on the court all year (per real stats).

GustavBahler wrote:Unfortunately Deuce doesn't see the court like a PG. As others have mentioned, Kolek does. His defense, lateral quickness might keep him from prime time until next season. Cam would be a better fit with JB out, and Deuce can go back to instant offense.

Some want KAT to take 3s like he did in Minny. I disagree. Before he got hurt, there was a nice balance between drives and 3pt attempts. Writers, former players, have been complimenting KAT’s newfound aggressiveness all season. It forces the defense to respect his ability to take it to the rim. Less predictable.

75% of Kat's drives are CRINGE WORTHY and leave me holding my breath for his safety and our transition D.

His shot selection is piss poor TBH and that's why we need Jalen to start games out creating more for Kat. Jalen creating for Kat is basically non-existent.

We aren't as good but game / ball flows way better with Jalen on the bench. Not better but looks nicer - SMH.

Clean wrote:

martin wrote:

Clean wrote:I have said nothing about Kolek not being ready to play because chances are he was not going to get meaningful minutes anyway. You guys forget who our coach is? Kolek at max is getting 10 minutes if he plays at all. The first mistake he does he will get sat for the rest of the game. Like the video above said all these things are what Thibs has done for years. People would argue with me about Thibs issues as a coach years ago and now all those same issues are coming back like they always do.

This is his moment. It’s Kolek Time.

I didn’t catch most of last night’s game but I’d guess we solidly know Deuce is not the PG to get things moving and would be better off ball. Cam has moments but he is limited.

Last man standing. What is the short white guy version of Linsanity?

Huk got his time, Kolek is up. Hopefully

I hope you are right.

Thibs about to play Delon 47 minutes and give Cam the other minute. Tyler to the bench for emergency use only.

martin wrote:Clean, not for nothing, but I think the Knicks are taking the long view. They already know they are not competing for championship this year and need the young rotting bench players to be ready when there are injuries and keep their heads down in the lab and GLeague.

Long view equals PJ Tucker.

martin wrote:

Clean wrote:Don't know if its a plan or not and to be honest it does not matter. That is the result of their or should I say Thibs actions. From the beginning of the season Huk has out played Sims every chance he got. Yet no matter what he never got above Sims in the rotation. For months we got to see Sims contribute nothing while Huk sat on the bench.

This is the great difficulty with coaching and giving players long enough leash to find their footing and get a rhythm.

I look at it completely from the opposite end of things. Thibs gave Sims a clear chance to succeed, a clear defined role, and a 15 game stretch with the opportunity to swim and prove himself. Sims failed. But this is exactly what every single player in league wants. It is well defined for both parties. It’s development. Thibs chose Sims development over perhaps the short term burst of playing the 58th pick. Development. It’s what we want? Or just wins over everything?

This is how you build a team over the long run and also in-season. He did it with Reddish and others. Obi the same early on.

BTW, this is exactly what you are asking Thibs to give Kolek.

I’d guess that Kolek is learning the Knicks playbook while also studying opponent tendencies. The tendencies are the tough parts, and the counters to all the playbook stuff is the second hardest. Elite talent types get away with not needing this as much cause of their talent, you can just throw them to the fire.

We must have our wires crossed because I don't see how Sims and Kolek are anything alike this season. One has gotten playing time and shown nothing for months. Kolek has gotten next to no time. If Kolek got the amount of non garbage time Sims got and showed no ability to contribute I would be OK with him sitting on the bench because obviously he's not ready.

Sims -
Total Minutes played for the Knicks - 422

Kolek -
Total minutes played for the Knicks - 148 and a majority of it is garbage time.

LivingLegend wrote:

martin wrote:Clean, not for nothing, but I think the Knicks are taking the long view. They already know they are not competing for championship this year and need the young rotting bench players to be ready when there are injuries and keep their heads down in the lab and GLeague.

Long view equals PJ Tucker.

Good Point.

martin wrote:

Clean wrote:Don't know if its a plan or not and to be honest it does not matter. That is the result of their or should I say Thibs actions. From the beginning of the season Huk has out played Sims every chance he got. Yet no matter what he never got above Sims in the rotation. For months we got to see Sims contribute nothing while Huk sat on the bench.

This is the great difficulty with coaching and giving players long enough leash to find their footing and get a rhythm.

I look at it completely from the opposite end of things. Thibs gave Sims a clear chance to succeed, a clear defined role, and a 15 game stretch with the opportunity to swim and prove himself. Sims failed. But this is exactly what every single player in league wants. It is well defined for both parties. It’s development. Thibs chose Sims development over perhaps the short term burst of playing the 58th pick. Development. It’s what we want? Or just wins over everything?

This is how you build a team over the long run and also in-season. He did it with Reddish and others. Obi the same early on.

BTW, this is exactly what you are asking Thibs to give Kolek.

I’d guess that Kolek is learning the Knicks playbook while also studying opponent tendencies. The tendencies are the tough parts, and the counters to all the playbook stuff is the second hardest. Elite talent types get away with not needing this as much cause of their talent, you can just throw them to the fire.

IMO that was to build value so they could move him and nothing else. They knew what they had in Sims coming into this season.