Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
You know something BONN? Your entitled to support who or whatever you want. But if you come after the Yankees,
Which I haven't done.
You are right, though, in a sense. What's really happening is that if you don't worship Cashman, you'll get an earful.
what's actually happening is if u accuse Cashman of being a crappy GM
Never have. I've always said he's about average but we should be able to do better than average.
average how? give me reasons & examples of why u think he's an average GM... i've pointed out every single move he's made that IMO have been positive ones for the Yankees franchise & u never even bothered to respond... u have yet to respond w/any examples of why u disagree w/me about his GMing acumen other than to say anyone could have done a better job w/an unlimited payroll... he's made his share of bad moves no doubt but name me 1 GM in baseball who hasn't... name me 15 other GM's who've had better track records than he has that you think would have done a better job... i've asked u this before & u conveniently avoided the question, but i'll ask it again - other than the Johan trade tell me what moves you were distinctly against making when Cashman made them... i bet u couldn't even name me 5 without looking them up.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
You know something BONN? Your entitled to support who or whatever you want. But if you come after the Yankees,
Which I haven't done.
You are right, though, in a sense. What's really happening is that if you don't worship Cashman, you'll get an earful.
what's actually happening is if u accuse Cashman of being a crappy GM
Never have. I've always said he's about average but we should be able to do better than average.
average how? give me reasons & examples of why u think he's an average GM... i've pointed out every single move he's made that IMO have been positive ones for the Yankees franchise & u never even bothered to respond... u have yet to respond w/any examples of why u disagree w/me about his GMing acumen other than to say anyone could have done a better job w/an unlimited payroll... he's made his share of bad moves no doubt but name me 1 GM in baseball who hasn't... name me 15 other GM's who've had better track records than he has that you think would have done a better job... i've asked u this before & u conveniently avoided the question, but i'll ask it again - other than the Johan trade tell me what moves you were distinctly against making when Cashman made them... i bet u couldn't even name me 5 without looking them up.
We've done this all thread. Based on his success rate, I think he's above average at drafting pitchers and average or slightly below average in all other phases of the game. You're right that he has made many good moves. He's also made dozens of terrible, very expensive moves--any ONE of which would get most GMs fired. They roughly balance out and make him about average in my opinion. He doesn't have a great or a terrible success rate. I wouldn't settle for a $200 mil average offense or a $200 mil average pitching rotation, though, just like I wouldn't settle for an average GM composing a $200 mil team. Many of his mistakes have been errors of omission rather than commision too, as I've argued in many consecutive off-seasons that he's been too passive with free agency. (This off-season is an exception so far.) I'm not gonna go into more detail than that. It's in the thread already. You can find tons of examples there.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 4:54 PM]
He's also made dozens of terrible, very expensive moves--any ONE of which would get most GMs fired.
which ones are you talking about? what's so hard about coming up w/a list of the moves u wish he never made, or did make, to remind us all why you think he's only average as a GM? it's not that hard... i came up with the list of about 50 acquisitions i felt that have either helped the team reach the goals that you said you used to determine a successful season or that have helped to ensure a promising future for this franchise several times already in this thread just to see if you could respond w/some that you disagreed with, & u avoid addressing it every time just like you're doing now... so which ones are these "dozens of terrible very expensive moves that could get any GM fired" that you're talking about? i asked u to just give me 5 off the top of your head & u couldn't even do that... just show me you know what you're talking about & i'll leave you alone... put up or shut up dude.
just in case you missed it, here it is again:
here is a list of all the players that Cashman has acquired either via trade or free agency that have helped this team either win a WS championship, win the AL Pennant, or at least get to the ALCS since he took over in '98 to the last time the Yankees were there in '04 (the benchmark that you seem to be using to determine a successful season):
Chuck Knoblauch
Scott Brosius
El Duque
Roger Clemens
Alfonso Soriano
Jose Vizcaino
David Justice
Glenallen Hill
Luis Sojo
Robin Ventura
Ruben Sierra
Karim Garcia
David Dellucci
Gabe White
Aaron Boone
Scott Proctor
Jeff Nelson
Alex Rodriguez
Tanyon Sturtze
Gary Sheffield
Hideki Matsui
Tom Gordon
Jason Giambi
Mike Mussina
Mike Stanton
Felix Rodriguez
here is a list of all the notable promising prospects & young talent that have been added to this franchise ever since Cashman took over as the GM that are either currently playing on the team or still in the pipeline of farm talent:
Joba Chamberlain
Brian Bruney
Phil Hughes
Ian Kennedy
Chien Ming Wang
Robinson Cano
Melky Cabrera
Humberto Sanchez
Andrew Brachman
Brett Gardner
Austin Jackson
Jose Veras
Edwar Ramirez
Juan Miranda
Dellin Betances
Christian Garcia
Mark Melancon
Justin Christian
JB Cox
Alan Horne
Jesus Montero
David Robertson
I suppose Cashman inherited all these players too? yeah sure, he doesn't deserve any credit for putting those teams together... anyone w/an unlimited checkbook coulda done better, right Bonn? please.
See earlier posts in this thread. It took a while to put the list together and I'm not doing it again. If you forgot it now, you'll forgot it 2 weeks from now and ask me to do it again. Or if it's really important to you, beg Martin for a search feature. I find that our arguments are INCREDIBLY repetitive and will just refer you to earlier posts in the thread when it gets repetitive. Sorry but I'm just not going to spend the time repeating myself.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 9:43 PM]
anyone w/an unlimited checkbook coulda done better, right Bonn?
And if you're gonna say something like that after I repeated that he was an average GM (which obviously means about 50% would have done worse), it tells me you are not interested in having a meaningful discussion.
Posted by Bonn1997:
See earlier posts in this thread. It took a while to put the list together and I'm not doing it again. If you forgot it now, you'll forgot it 2 weeks from now and ask me to do it again. Or if it's really important to you, beg Martin for a search feature. I find that our arguments are INCREDIBLY repetitive and will just refer you to earlier posts in the thread when it gets repetitive. Sorry but I'm just not going to spend the time repeating myself.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 9:43 PM]
u couldn't put together a list of 5 moves u disagreed with even if u wanted to, much less come up with a list of 5 GM's in baseball u think could do a better job... i've never seen you post any list of dozens of moves u disagreed with & i defy u to prove otherwise... i knew u couldn't respond to being called out on this
[Edited by - TMS on 01-01-2009 7:54 PM]
Posted by Bonn1997:
We've done this all thread. Based on his success rate, I think he's above average at drafting pitchers and average or slightly below average in all other phases of the game. You're right that he has made many good moves. He's also made dozens of terrible, very expensive moves--any ONE of which would get most GMs fired. They roughly balance out and make him about average in my opinion. He doesn't have a great or a terrible success rate. I wouldn't settle for a $200 mil average offense or a $200 mil average pitching rotation, though, just like I wouldn't settle for an average GM composing a $200 mil team. Many of his mistakes have been errors of omission rather than commision too, as I've argued in many consecutive off-seasons that he's been too passive with free agency. (This off-season is an exception so far.) I'm not gonna go into more detail than that. It's in the thread already. You can find tons of examples there.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 4:54 PM]
The part that I bolded, which is the basis of your opinion of Cashman, makes absolutely no sense.
You say that he's only above average at drafting pitchers. But then you say that he's made "dozens of terrible, very expensive moves--any ONE of which would get most GMs fired". Unless Cashman has drafted a dozen future Hall of Fame pitchers that we don't know about, how could the 2 possibly balance each other out to make him average, as you said?
Cashman has been the GM since 1998, during which time the Yankees have won 3 World Series, 5 AL Pennants and have made the playoffs every year except 1. I'm pretty sure that regardless of how much money they've spent, a record that impressive can in no way be described as "average". I'm not even going to get into the fact that he has the highest profile job, working for the highest profile ownership in baseball and has handled himself impeccably.
I'm sure you'll tell me to scour the other 99 pages of this thread to show me how off base I am but your argument is really lacking. Your irrational dislike for the job that Cashman has done is baseless.
just a note Bonn, my purpose is not trying to gang up w/isles & 4949 to put u on blast on this thread or to prove how much i love Brian Cashman... in fact, i woulda been fine had he been fired after last season, as long as a better GM was coming here to take his place... other than 1 or 2 other guys i can name off the top of my head, i don't see who anyone could have even made an argument in favor of to take his place tho... i'm simply asking u to give me legitimate examples of the dozens of bad moves that you said Cashman's made... when u make those sweeping generalizations to criticize someone, u gotta be ready to back it up w/specific facts, not with generalizations like "he's just an average GM"... that's a complete copout on your part... how do u possibly reason that what he's accomplished is "average" or that he "doesn't have a great or terrible success rate" when there's no other GM in baseball right now w/more WS rings or ALCS appearances on his resume than he does? i simply don't get that type of reasoning... again, please give me some specifics, not generalizations.
it's fine not to be satisfied w/average results in terms of W's & L's last season, none of us were... Brian Cashman isn't satisfied with it & neither are the Steinbrenners obviously... u don't judge the man based on a season where injuries played a huge role in why this team didn't make it to postseason play, why else do u think Cashman is still our GM? he did the best job he could w/the plan he has in place & this team is set up extremely well both in the present & in the future because he stuck to that plan... before last season the Yankees had made it to postseason play 10 consecutive years since he's been the GM with 3 World Titles & 6 ALCS appearances... there isn't 1 other GM in baseball that can say the same.
as i've told u many times over, GM's don't control who gets injured or how players underperform during seasons... if not for the Yankees' choke job at Fenway in the last 4 games of the '04 ALCS after having a 3 games to none lead & Mariano's choke job in the 9th inning of the '01 WS with a lead & 1 out, he could very well have 2 more WS rings on his resume... '03 we got beat by awesome pitching by a young & hungry Marlins team... that has happened to even the greatest Yankee teams in history... the Pirates beat a powerhouse Yankees team in the 1960 WS in 7 games on Bill Mazeroski's HR even tho the Yanks completely dominated them stats wise... was that the GM's fault? that's baseball, it's the nature of the game... anyone who's followed the sport for a while should realize these things.
what i find strange is how because he didn't make the 1 trade that you were so dead set on making last year, his entire tenure as the Yankees' GM is forever tainted in your eyes... there have been moves he's made that all of us at some point or another haven't agreed with i'm sure, but you don't see people around here labelling him as an average GM because of it... again, who do u think would have done such a better job as our GM? if you think he's average there must be at least 15-20 other guys you have in mind that could've done better... who are they?
Not going to repeat myself. And not going to clarify when you will distort the clarification anyway (Sorry Isles). Sorry to disappoint you guys. This is basically the same as a liberal guy posting on a conservative republican message board. People just don't want to hear your view even if they claim they do and will misremember (or outright forget it as in TMS's case) when you do post it anyway. It gets boring and pointless to come on here with the sole purpose of correcting others' either lazy or intentional inaccurate claims of your position. Anyway, Cashman's finally being as active in free agency in the off-season as I've always been begging him to do and hopefully it will pay off.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-02-2009 08:11 AM]
repeat what? u never once specified even 1 GM who u thought would have done a better job much less 15... keep avoiding the questions cuz i know you have no answers for them to begin with.
Posted by Bonn1997:
See earlier posts in this thread. It took a while to put the list together and I'm not doing it again. If you forgot it now, you'll forgot it 2 weeks from now and ask me to do it again. Or if it's really important to you, beg Martin for a search feature. I find that our arguments are INCREDIBLY repetitive and will just refer you to earlier posts in the thread when it gets repetitive. Sorry but I'm just not going to spend the time repeating myself.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 9:43 PM]
lol, hilarious. but i agree, cashman is a mediocore GM on a team where mistakes are overlooked because they can be covered up by more spending. cashman would do horribly on a small market team.
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by Bonn1997:
See earlier posts in this thread. It took a while to put the list together and I'm not doing it again. If you forgot it now, you'll forgot it 2 weeks from now and ask me to do it again. Or if it's really important to you, beg Martin for a search feature. I find that our arguments are INCREDIBLY repetitive and will just refer you to earlier posts in the thread when it gets repetitive. Sorry but I'm just not going to spend the time repeating myself.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 9:43 PM]
lol, hilarious. but i agree, cashman is a mediocore GM on a team where mistakes are overlooked because they can be covered up by more spending. cashman would do horribly on a small market team.
the 2 copout kings becoming buddies... that's very cute... i'm sure Omar Minaya would have done such a better job than him in your eyes over the past 10 years, right? gimme a break & go back into hiding.
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by Bonn1997:
See earlier posts in this thread. It took a while to put the list together and I'm not doing it again. If you forgot it now, you'll forgot it 2 weeks from now and ask me to do it again. Or if it's really important to you, beg Martin for a search feature. I find that our arguments are INCREDIBLY repetitive and will just refer you to earlier posts in the thread when it gets repetitive. Sorry but I'm just not going to spend the time repeating myself.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 9:43 PM]
lol, hilarious. but i agree, cashman is a mediocore GM on a team where mistakes are overlooked because they can be covered up by more spending. cashman would do horribly on a small market team.
he was never on a small market team so you can't say that.....well you can say whatever you want....doesn't mean its the truth.
Fact is....when the team wants someone he always gets them. it's not always about money either. Cashman has always been able to pull a trade off out of nowhere to fill needs especially mid-season.....Pudge trade last year being the last one.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by Bonn1997:
See earlier posts in this thread. It took a while to put the list together and I'm not doing it again. If you forgot it now, you'll forgot it 2 weeks from now and ask me to do it again. Or if it's really important to you, beg Martin for a search feature. I find that our arguments are INCREDIBLY repetitive and will just refer you to earlier posts in the thread when it gets repetitive. Sorry but I'm just not going to spend the time repeating myself.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 9:43 PM]
lol, hilarious. but i agree, cashman is a mediocore GM on a team where mistakes are overlooked because they can be covered up by more spending. cashman would do horribly on a small market team.
i'm sure Omar Minaya would have done such a better job than him in your eyes over the past 10 years, right? gimme a break & go back into hiding.
like bonn says, you constantly put words into other peoples mouth. 30something year old child...wooo!
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by Bonn1997:
See earlier posts in this thread. It took a while to put the list together and I'm not doing it again. If you forgot it now, you'll forgot it 2 weeks from now and ask me to do it again. Or if it's really important to you, beg Martin for a search feature. I find that our arguments are INCREDIBLY repetitive and will just refer you to earlier posts in the thread when it gets repetitive. Sorry but I'm just not going to spend the time repeating myself.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 9:43 PM]
lol, hilarious. but i agree, cashman is a mediocore GM on a team where mistakes are overlooked because they can be covered up by more spending. cashman would do horribly on a small market team.
he was never on a small market team so you can't say that.....well you can say whatever you want....doesn't mean its the truth.
Fact is....when the team wants someone he always gets them. it's not always about money either. Cashman has always been able to pull a trade off out of nowhere to fill needs especially mid-season.....Pudge trade last year being the last one.
When you have endless spending in the draft and FA, it should be near impossible not to be a good team. Btw, that Pudge trade was nothing special, Pudge is nothing special anymore.
Posted by jaydh:
Ok, Theo. now what?
Theo Epstein has a better track record than Cashan how? Cashman's got more WS rings, more WS appearances, more playoff appearances, more division titles... nice try but that's a fail.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Ok, Theo. now what?
Theo Epstein has a better track record than Cashan how? Cashman's got more WS rings, more WS appearances, more playoff appearances, more division titles... nice try but that's a fail.
Lol, thats very weak. I'm sure the Yankees never would have won in 1998 if Cashman wasn't there. Get a clue.
