Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Ok, Theo. now what?
Theo Epstein has a better track record than Cashan how? Cashman's got more WS rings, more WS appearances, more playoff appearances, more division titles... nice try but that's a fail.
Lol, thats very weak. I'm sure the Yankees never would have won in 1998 if Cashman wasn't there. Get a clue.
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Ok, Theo. now what?
Theo Epstein has a better track record than Cashan how? Cashman's got more WS rings, more WS appearances, more playoff appearances, more division titles... nice try but that's a fail.
Lol, thats very weak. I'm sure the Yankees never would have won in 1998 if Cashman wasn't there. Get a clue.
the only thing weak was ur pathetic response... u can take the '98 Yankees out of the equation & Cashman still has a better track record than Theo.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Ok, Theo. now what?
Theo Epstein has a better track record than Cashan how? Cashman's got more WS rings, more WS appearances, more playoff appearances, more division titles... nice try but that's a fail.
Lol, thats very weak. I'm sure the Yankees never would have won in 1998 if Cashman wasn't there. Get a clue.
the only thing weak was ur pathetic response... u can take the '98 Yankees out of the equation & Cashman still has a better track record than Theo.
I'm sure you think a 15W 4.5era pitcher is better than a 10win 3era pitcher too. Cashman is mediocore at best, its not my problem that you can't see that with your yankee deluded goggles. Pavano, Igawa, or Clemens(2nd time) would have been enough to get just about any GM fired. Name 3 big mistakes Theo has made recently that even come close to those 3 mistakes.
but cashman has a ring... LOL!! Thats like saying Ricky Ledee must be a better player than C.Beltran because he has rings and beltran doesn't! Logic anyone?
Posted by Bonn1997:
Not going to repeat myself. And not going to clarify when you will distort the clarification anyway (Sorry Isles). Sorry to disappoint you guys. This is basically the same as a liberal guy posting on a conservative republican message board. People just don't want to hear your view even if they claim they do and will misremember (or outright forget it as in TMS's case) when you do post it anyway. It gets boring and pointless to come on here with the sole purpose of correcting others' either lazy or intentional inaccurate claims of your position. Anyway, Cashman's finally being as active in free agency in the off-season as I've always been begging him to do and hopefully it will pay off.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-02-2009 08:11 AM]
Sorry Bonn but that's very lame. Your logic is completely twisted with these big generalizations and you refuse to clarify any of it. If clarifying a few simple sentences is too much to ask, to find out why you feel the way you do, then the rest of your opinions regarding the Yankees are pretty worthless. That's a little disappointing.
Posted by jaydh:
like bonn says, you constantly put words into other peoples mouth. 30something year old child...wooo!
Posted by jaydh:
I'm sure you think a 15W 4.5era pitcher is better than a 10win 3era pitcher too.
but cashman has a ring... LOL!! Thats like saying Ricky Ledee must be a better player than C.Beltran because he has rings and beltran doesn't!
& u wonder why i twist ur words when u come at me w/garbage like this on a regular basis... stop wasting my time dude... u offer nothing.
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Ok, Theo. now what?
Theo Epstein has a better track record than Cashan how? Cashman's got more WS rings, more WS appearances, more playoff appearances, more division titles... nice try but that's a fail.
Lol, thats very weak. I'm sure the Yankees never would have won in 1998 if Cashman wasn't there. Get a clue.
Most of the 2004 Red Sox were already there before Theo became GM so if you want to arbitrarily take credit away from Cashman for 1998, do the same for Theo in 2004.
Even if you take away 98, Cashman has had much more success than Theo has. Care to explain why you think otherwise?
Pavano, Igawa, or Clemens(2nd time) would have been enough to get just about any GM fired. Name 3 big mistakes Theo has made recently that even come close to those 3 mistakes.
oh so now we're judging GM's not by their track record of success, but by a few big failures in your twisted sense of reality, is that it? how about the 48 some odd moves i outlined for u a few posts up on this thread that point to Cashman's quality as a GM? of course, those don't apply to this discussion because you have nothing to say in response but 3 major blunders of his in recent years... i get it... whatever positive evidence that exists don't factor into this discussion, cuz a Yankee hater such as yourself will only see the negatives anyway... what's the point in even discussing it? u claim Cashman is just an average GM & can only provide 1 GM in all of baseball that even comes close in terms of a track record, & even he doesn't match up... your entire argument is worthless.
make whatever false criticisms you like, as long as u believe it i guess it's true in your eyes... must be awesome to go through life that way.
[Edited by - TMS on 01-02-2009 09:20 AM]
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Ok, Theo. now what?
Theo Epstein has a better track record than Cashan how? Cashman's got more WS rings, more WS appearances, more playoff appearances, more division titles... nice try but that's a fail.
Lol, thats very weak. I'm sure the Yankees never would have won in 1998 if Cashman wasn't there. Get a clue.
the only thing weak was ur pathetic response... u can take the '98 Yankees out of the equation & Cashman still has a better track record than Theo.
I'm sure you think a 15W 4.5era pitcher is better than a 10win 3era pitcher too. Cashman is mediocore at best, its not my problem that you can't see that with your yankee deluded goggles. Pavano, Igawa, or Clemens(2nd time) would have been enough to get just about any GM fired. Name 3 big mistakes Theo has made recently that even come close to those 3 mistakes.
but cashman has a ring... LOL!! Thats like saying Ricky Ledee must be a better player than C.Beltran because he has rings and beltran doesn't! Logic anyone?
Coco Crisp, Edgar Renteria and the Manny situation which one would argue cost them another WS.
Posted by jaydh:
I'm sure you think a 15W 4.5era pitcher is better than a 10win 3era pitcher too.
This coming from someone who thinks that a GM with 2 Championships, 2 AL Pennants and 1 Division Title is better than a GM with 3 Championships, 5 AL Pennants and 8 Division Titles.
Logic anyone?
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
I'm sure you think a 15W 4.5era pitcher is better than a 10win 3era pitcher too.
This coming from someone who thinks that a GM with 2 Championships, 2 AL Pennants and 1 Division Title is better than a GM with 3 Championships, 5 AL Pennants and 8 Division Titles.
Logic anyone?
& back into hiding he goes as usual.
this cashman discussion is moot. it's well known that cashman didn't get full power to run the team until 2-3 years ago. before then, there was the tampa team and george making decisions (along with cash money) for the team too. what cashman has done is completely rebuild the farm system. so in the past 3 years, we must credit cashman for joba + cano as well a bunch of great young arms in the pen, and a possible future starter in hughes. so i think cash can definitely do a good job on another team.
[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-02-2009 5:50 PM]
but i would also suggest ignoring jaydh's posts in this thread as they are clearly drive by's...
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
We've done this all thread. Based on his success rate, I think he's above average at drafting pitchers and average or slightly below average in all other phases of the game. You're right that he has made many good moves. He's also made dozens of terrible, very expensive moves--any ONE of which would get most GMs fired. They roughly balance out and make him about average in my opinion. He doesn't have a great or a terrible success rate. I wouldn't settle for a $200 mil average offense or a $200 mil average pitching rotation, though, just like I wouldn't settle for an average GM composing a $200 mil team. Many of his mistakes have been errors of omission rather than commision too, as I've argued in many consecutive off-seasons that he's been too passive with free agency. (This off-season is an exception so far.) I'm not gonna go into more detail than that. It's in the thread already. You can find tons of examples there.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 4:54 PM]
The part that I bolded, which is the basis of your opinion of Cashman, makes absolutely no sense.
You say that he's only above average at drafting pitchers. But then you say that he's made "dozens of terrible, very expensive moves--any ONE of which would get most GMs fired". Unless Cashman has drafted a dozen future Hall of Fame pitchers that we don't know about, how could the 2 possibly balance each other out to make him average, as you said?
Cashman has been the GM since 1998, during which time the Yankees have won 3 World Series, 5 AL Pennants and have made the playoffs every year except 1. I'm pretty sure that regardless of how much money they've spent, a record that impressive can in no way be described as "average". I'm not even going to get into the fact that he has the highest profile job, working for the highest profile ownership in baseball and has handled himself impeccably.
I'm sure you'll tell me to scour the other 99 pages of this thread to show me how off base I am but your argument is really lacking. Your irrational dislike for the job that Cashman has done is baseless.
You must have intentionally ignored the part about him making many very good moves. Yes, many very good moves and many very bad moves roughly cancel each other out in my reasoning. I didn't realize that was so confusing. Sorry. (It's pathetic but I couldn't stand the thought of Isles thinking he had "stumped" me with his latest trivial clarification request.) And TMS, there definitely is a long list ranging from $30 mil for half a season of Roger to $46 mil on Igawa and including about ten or so other moves where each alone would have gotten the other GM fired, and it appears multiple times in this thread. Sorry I'm not going to repeat it or search to find it for you.
I'll still be here posting if something big happens and during the season. I just see no point in continuing the recent discussions. No, Isles, I won't clarify your next trivial request for clarification. You'll have to find out on your own what the meaning of "is" is.
Jaydh, I hope you appear more often. I don't always agree with you but you bring much needed balance here.
DJ, you give Cash too much credit but you're still a cool guy.
And TMS, there definitely is a long list ranging from $30 mil for half a season of Roger to $46 mil on Igawa and including about ten or so other moves where each alone would have gotten the other GM fired, and it appears multiple times in this thread. Sorry I'm not going to repeat it or search to find it for you.
strange then that only you seem to be remember when you've listed these many other moves you're referring to many times on this thread... so far all i've seen u mention are 3, & that's only after u had some troll Met fan point them out for you... you've spent 10 times more effort telling me to go back & read up 99 pages of this thread to go look for it than you would have to merely list the ones you're talking about & save us all the trouble... a search feature would be awesome, i hope martin puts 1 in one day... until then what's so damn hard about clarifying yourself for everyone here even if you may have done it in the past & no one remembers?
[Edited by - TMS on 01-02-2009 6:09 PM]
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
We've done this all thread. Based on his success rate, I think he's above average at drafting pitchers and average or slightly below average in all other phases of the game. You're right that he has made many good moves. He's also made dozens of terrible, very expensive moves--any ONE of which would get most GMs fired. They roughly balance out and make him about average in my opinion. He doesn't have a great or a terrible success rate. I wouldn't settle for a $200 mil average offense or a $200 mil average pitching rotation, though, just like I wouldn't settle for an average GM composing a $200 mil team. Many of his mistakes have been errors of omission rather than commision too, as I've argued in many consecutive off-seasons that he's been too passive with free agency. (This off-season is an exception so far.) I'm not gonna go into more detail than that. It's in the thread already. You can find tons of examples there.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-01-2009 4:54 PM]
The part that I bolded, which is the basis of your opinion of Cashman, makes absolutely no sense.
You say that he's only above average at drafting pitchers. But then you say that he's made "dozens of terrible, very expensive moves--any ONE of which would get most GMs fired". Unless Cashman has drafted a dozen future Hall of Fame pitchers that we don't know about, how could the 2 possibly balance each other out to make him average, as you said?
Cashman has been the GM since 1998, during which time the Yankees have won 3 World Series, 5 AL Pennants and have made the playoffs every year except 1. I'm pretty sure that regardless of how much money they've spent, a record that impressive can in no way be described as "average". I'm not even going to get into the fact that he has the highest profile job, working for the highest profile ownership in baseball and has handled himself impeccably.
I'm sure you'll tell me to scour the other 99 pages of this thread to show me how off base I am but your argument is really lacking. Your irrational dislike for the job that Cashman has done is baseless.
You must have intentionally ignored the part about him making many very good moves. Yes, many very good moves and many very bad moves roughly cancel each other out in my reasoning. I didn't realize that was so confusing. Sorry. (It's pathetic but I couldn't stand the thought of Isles thinking he had "stumped" me with his latest trivial clarification request.) And TMS, there definitely is a long list ranging from $30 mil for half a season of Roger to $46 mil on Igawa and including about ten or so other moves where each alone would have gotten the other GM fired, and it appears multiple times in this thread. Sorry I'm not going to repeat it or search to find it for you.
I'll still be here posting if something big happens and during the season. I just see no point in continuing the recent discussions. No, Isles, I won't clarify your next trivial request for clarification. You'll have to find out on your own what the meaning of "is" is.
Jaydh, I hope you appear more often. I don't always agree with you but you bring much needed balance here.
DJ, you give Cash too much credit but you're still a cool guy.
Bonn, I have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe if you were a little more consistent and used a little logic, it might be easier to understand you but I guess it's shame on me for trying to get you to clarify.
How could I "intentionally ignore" what you said about many good moves when I bolded it? Those "good moves" must have been ridiculously good if they balance out "dozens of terrible, very expensive moves--any ONE of which would get most GM's fired".
Can you name some of these ridiculously good moves? If those "good moves" were that good that they would lead to the success that Cashman's teams have had, then how can you say he's average?
What is your definition of "average" for a baseball GM?
these 2 only choose to focus on the past 5 years that the Yankees have failed to get to the WS, & yet during those years since '04, the Yankees have won more games than any other team in baseball... the only things they want to focus on are 3 or 4 bad moves he's made as a GM & the fact that he has the highest payroll to work with... these 2 view that as the track record of an average GM, meanwhile they can't even give any examples of any GM's in the sport who have had a better track record than the man they're criticizing... when you're faced w/a twisted sense of logic like that i guess it's pointless to try & ask for a legitimate definition of the word "average"... if "average" means one of the top 1 or 2 GM's in the entire game, i'll sign up for that anyday & i'm sure most knowledgeable Yankee fans would do the same.
Whether it's Cashman allegdly being a horrible GM or alleged requirements that we need an all-star at every position or should win a WS every year, you repeatedly and knowingly lie about my views, TMS. Get someone who doesn't lie about my views knowingly to ask for my list of Cashman catastrophes and I'll gladly either search for or reproduce it. Isles, you answered your own question in your reply but then followed it with an incorrect deduction from my premise that Cashman has made many very good and many very bad decisions. I'm confident you can figure it out on your own or at least find someone to help you.
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Oh' and while we're at it, let's bring Manny in, just to antagonize BONN. 
If you think that would antagonize me, then I'm CONVINCED you haven't carefully read anything I've written. I've probably said at least ten times in this thread that I want them to sign Manny. You missed it every time? All I said was that I had sympathy for fans of small market teams because they're not playing on a level playing field and Yankee fans here went berserk.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-30-2008 2:25 PM]
You also spoke out against' the Yankees moves,
Figment of your imagination again (unless you mean Cashman's moves PRIOR to this current off-season). Please provide quotes if your going to attribute something to me.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-30-2008 10:55 PM]
Cashman's a Yankee.
What's your point? Have you never criticized ANY Yankees?
ABSOLUTELY! Pettitte, Giambi, Sheffield, Rocket and a hand full of other recent Yankees who either got caught or admitted to using steroids. Remember guys like Jack the flipper. A former chicago white sux player who thought he could just put on the pins and flip the fans because they weren't happy paying him all that money and not living up to it.
Yeah, I let some Yankees know about it.
So then what exactly was your point?
NOW DO YOU SEE HOW YOU DID THAT????????
You asked me a question, one I answered clearly and all you had to do was agree or say nothing more about it. It was answered. You come back with 'what's my point'???
I asked you two questions. You clearly answered the second while ignoring the first.
Clearly 'so then what exactly was your point' is one question. I don't see two questions in this line. Clearly you are somewhere else.
Posted by Bonn1997:
Whether it's Cashman allegdly being a horrible GM or alleged requirements that we need an all-star at every position or should win a WS every year, you repeatedly and knowingly lie about my views, TMS. Get someone who doesn't lie about my views knowingly to ask for my list of Cashman catastrophes and I'll gladly either search for or reproduce it. Isles, you answered your own question in your reply but then followed it with an incorrect deduction from my premise that Cashman has made many very good and many very bad decisions. I'm confident you can figure it out on your own or at least find someone to help you.
BONN, why are you so misunderstood by several people here, if it is in fact misunderstanding? Have you thought about that?
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Oh' and while we're at it, let's bring Manny in, just to antagonize BONN.
If you think that would antagonize me, then I'm CONVINCED you haven't carefully read anything I've written. I've probably said at least ten times in this thread that I want them to sign Manny. You missed it every time? All I said was that I had sympathy for fans of small market teams because they're not playing on a level playing field and Yankee fans here went berserk.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-30-2008 2:25 PM]
You also spoke out against' the Yankees moves,
Figment of your imagination again (unless you mean Cashman's moves PRIOR to this current off-season). Please provide quotes if your going to attribute something to me.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-30-2008 10:55 PM]
Cashman's a Yankee.
What's your point? Have you never criticized ANY Yankees?
ABSOLUTELY! Pettitte, Giambi, Sheffield, Rocket and a hand full of other recent Yankees who either got caught or admitted to using steroids. Remember guys like Jack the flipper. A former chicago white sux player who thought he could just put on the pins and flip the fans because they weren't happy paying him all that money and not living up to it.
Yeah, I let some Yankees know about it.
So then what exactly was your point?
NOW DO YOU SEE HOW YOU DID THAT????????
You asked me a question, one I answered clearly and all you had to do was agree or say nothing more about it. It was answered. You come back with 'what's my point'???
I asked you two questions. You clearly answered the second while ignoring the first.
Clearly 'so then what exactly was your point' is one question. I don't see two questions in this line. Clearly you are somewhere else.
Look one post earlier by me in this thread.
This is obviously going nowhere anyway. This is like trying to convince the Bushies there were no WMD. Hopefully we'll all get to celebrate a better outcome than the last few seasons. Peace!
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-03-2009 10:04 AM]
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by 4949:
Oh' and while we're at it, let's bring Manny in, just to antagonize BONN.
If you think that would antagonize me, then I'm CONVINCED you haven't carefully read anything I've written. I've probably said at least ten times in this thread that I want them to sign Manny. You missed it every time? All I said was that I had sympathy for fans of small market teams because they're not playing on a level playing field and Yankee fans here went berserk.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-30-2008 2:25 PM]
You also spoke out against' the Yankees moves,
Figment of your imagination again (unless you mean Cashman's moves PRIOR to this current off-season). Please provide quotes if your going to attribute something to me.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-30-2008 10:55 PM]
Cashman's a Yankee.
What's your point? Have you never criticized ANY Yankees?
ABSOLUTELY! Pettitte, Giambi, Sheffield, Rocket and a hand full of other recent Yankees who either got caught or admitted to using steroids. Remember guys like Jack the flipper. A former chicago white sux player who thought he could just put on the pins and flip the fans because they weren't happy paying him all that money and not living up to it.
Yeah, I let some Yankees know about it.
So then what exactly was your point?
NOW DO YOU SEE HOW YOU DID THAT????????
You asked me a question, one I answered clearly and all you had to do was agree or say nothing more about it. It was answered. You come back with 'what's my point'???
I asked you two questions. You clearly answered the second while ignoring the first.
Clearly 'so then what exactly was your point' is one question. I don't see two questions in this line. Clearly you are somewhere else.
Look one post earlier by me in this thread.
This is obviously going nowhere anyway. This is like trying to convince the Bushies there were no WMD. Hopefully we'll all get to celebrate a better outcome than the last few seasons. Peace!
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-03-2009 10:04 AM]
These are the two questions I found. I answered both of them.
QUOTE BY BONN:
'What's your point? Have you never criticized ANY Yankees?'
