Off Topic · Yankees Talk thread (page 150)

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by 4949:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by 4949:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by 4949:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by 4949:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by 4949:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by 4949:

Oh' and while we're at it, let's bring Manny in, just to antagonize BONN.

If you think that would antagonize me, then I'm CONVINCED you haven't carefully read anything I've written. I've probably said at least ten times in this thread that I want them to sign Manny. You missed it every time? All I said was that I had sympathy for fans of small market teams because they're not playing on a level playing field and Yankee fans here went berserk.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-30-2008 2:25 PM]

You also spoke out against' the Yankees moves,

Figment of your imagination again (unless you mean Cashman's moves PRIOR to this current off-season). Please provide quotes if your going to attribute something to me.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 12-30-2008 10:55 PM]

Cashman's a Yankee.

What's your point? Have you never criticized ANY Yankees?

ABSOLUTELY! Pettitte, Giambi, Sheffield, Rocket and a hand full of other recent Yankees who either got caught or admitted to using steroids. Remember guys like Jack the flipper. A former chicago white sux player who thought he could just put on the pins and flip the fans because they weren't happy paying him all that money and not living up to it.

Yeah, I let some Yankees know about it.

So then what exactly was your point?

NOW DO YOU SEE HOW YOU DID THAT????????

You asked me a question, one I answered clearly and all you had to do was agree or say nothing more about it. It was answered. You come back with 'what's my point'???

I asked you two questions. You clearly answered the second while ignoring the first.

Clearly 'so then what exactly was your point' is one question. I don't see two questions in this line. Clearly you are somewhere else.

Look one post earlier by me in this thread.
This is obviously going nowhere anyway. This is like trying to convince the Bushies there were no WMD. Hopefully we'll all get to celebrate a better outcome than the last few seasons. Peace!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-03-2009 10:04 AM]

These are the two questions I found. I answered both of them.

QUOTE BY BONN:
'What's your point? Have you never criticized ANY Yankees?'

Posted by Bonn1997:

Whether it's Cashman allegdly being a horrible GM or alleged requirements that we need an all-star at every position or should win a WS every year, you repeatedly and knowingly lie about my views, TMS. Get someone who doesn't lie about my views knowingly to ask for my list of Cashman catastrophes and I'll gladly either search for or reproduce it. Isles, you answered your own question in your reply but then followed it with an incorrect deduction from my premise that Cashman has made many very good and many very bad decisions. I'm confident you can figure it out on your own or at least find someone to help you.

Any reason why you're being such a prick? If you honestly believe what you think, why don't you stand up and explain it. That's all I'm asking you to do but apparently you have no interest in doing so. It's funny how you're criticizing TMS for putting words in your mouth while asking me to do the exact same thing. All because you can't explain or defend your illogical comments.

I'm not knowingly lying about your views, just asking you to clarify them with examples, yet you consistently refuse to. So stop pretending that there are conditions to which you would and it's TMS' fault that you won't.

You can now be classified as another irrational sports fan, who makes wild generalizations that they can't back up. Not worth my time.

Peace. I feel I've explained everything more fully than you could ever ask for and I did as much work here as I want to on the topic. Enjoy the new year (seriously)!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-03-2009 5:55 PM]

Posted by Bonn1997:

Peace. I feel I've explained everything more fully than you could ever ask for and I did as much work here as I want to on the topic. Enjoy the new year (seriously)!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-03-2009 5:55 PM]

And this is exactly how an irrational sports fan acts.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Whether it's Cashman allegdly being a horrible GM or alleged requirements that we need an all-star at every position or should win a WS every year, you repeatedly and knowingly lie about my views, TMS. Get someone who doesn't lie about my views knowingly to ask for my list of Cashman catastrophes and I'll gladly either search for or reproduce it. Isles, you answered your own question in your reply but then followed it with an incorrect deduction from my premise that Cashman has made many very good and many very bad decisions. I'm confident you can figure it out on your own or at least find someone to help you.

Attention all those who don't knowingly lie about Bonn's views:

please ask Bonn to post a list of the "dozens of bad & expensive moves" that Brian Cashman has made that qualify him as an average GM so he'll finally man up & do so.

Thanks in advance.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Whether it's Cashman allegdly being a horrible GM or alleged requirements that we need an all-star at every position or should win a WS every year, you repeatedly and knowingly lie about my views, TMS. Get someone who doesn't lie about my views knowingly to ask for my list of Cashman catastrophes and I'll gladly either search for or reproduce it. Isles, you answered your own question in your reply but then followed it with an incorrect deduction from my premise that Cashman has made many very good and many very bad decisions. I'm confident you can figure it out on your own or at least find someone to help you.

Attention all those who don't knowingly lie about Bonn's views:

please ask Bonn to post a list of the "dozens of bad & expensive moves" that Brian Cashman has made that qualify him as an average GM so he'll finally man up & do so.

Thanks in advance.

That's like asking me to climb Mt. Everest! It just isn't going to happen.

I would also like to add that the Yankees have made baseball a buyers market, within' a buyers market 'to their advantage'. By setting the bar so high (in these economic hard times) it has left players out like Manny and Lowe out to take lower deals, because all other ML teams either refuse or cannot pay what the left overs are asking for. It is also the reason why the Mets even have a chance at getting Lowe at a lower price. And maybe it's also the reason why they were also able to get K-Rod and Putz. Why markets like bastan bastards and L.A. didn't take advantage of it is a mystery. Farm markets, like chicago on down simply cannot hang with the big boys.

This thread has been a joy to read.

Yeah, it got crazy! I'm a bit amused looking back on it.

i am too... it's amusing how u keep avoiding the questions being posed to you.

This is getting pretty funny.

Posted by 4949:

This is getting pretty funny.

TMS is a poor begger.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by 4949:

This is getting pretty funny.

TMS is a poor begger.

but I'll give him credit for persistence. If he can go a full week without lying about my views, I'll give my precious list of what I think were pretty bad moves by Cashman. I'll even say the full week started yesterday--so this was day 2--because I'm a generous guy. Anyone who's followed my posting and the team closely can probably guess most of the list but I promise there will be a couple of surprises--both in what's left off and what's included.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 7:33 PM]

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by 4949:

This is getting pretty funny.

TMS is a poor begger.

Bonn, u want someone to beg u to give them an answer for your own groundless statements you've uttered on this thread... ur not even good at trying to shift the focus off your own lack of information... still waiting on u to give those dozens of bad & expensive moves Cashman has made as a GM that u say he's made... s'ok dude, just admit u didn't know what u were talking about & we'll drop the subject.

Credibility is at stake here.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by 4949:

This is getting pretty funny.

TMS is a poor begger.

but I'll give him credit for persistence. If he can go a full week without lying about my views, I'll give my precious list of what I think were pretty bad moves by Cashman. I'll even say the full week started yesterday--so this was day 2--because I'm a generous guy. Anyone who's followed my posting and the team closely can probably guess most of the list but I promise there will be a couple of surprises--both in what's left off and what's included.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 7:33 PM]

show me where i've lied about ur views.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by 4949:

This is getting pretty funny.

TMS is a poor begger.

but I'll give him credit for persistence. If he can go a full week without lying about my views, I'll give my precious list of what I think were pretty bad moves by Cashman. I'll even say the full week started yesterday--so this was day 2--because I'm a generous guy. Anyone who's followed my posting and the team closely can probably guess most of the list but I promise there will be a couple of surprises--both in what's left off and what's included.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 7:33 PM]

show me where i've lied about ur views.

Your three favorite lies--lies I correct every time and then you repeat--are that I allegedly think Cashman is a horrible GM and that I alledgly require that we have an all-star at every position and that we win a WS every year. I've corrected you enough times that you're obviously intentionally "mis-stating" (I'll use a more gentle word) my views.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 7:45 PM]

i apologize for using those lines on u, but don't even try & pretend like u haven't been taking potshots at Cashman's GMing abilities in this thread all along... all i want is for u to clarify what are these dozens of terrible moves that Cashman's made that makes him an average GM in your eyes... i took the time to post a lengthy list of moves & pointed out his best in baseball track record to show u why u'r wrong... now tell me how u disagree.

here are your exact words on this issue:

Posted by Bonn1997:

I've always said he's about average but we should be able to do better than average.

Posted by Bonn1997:
Based on his success rate, I think he's above average at drafting pitchers and average or slightly below average in all other phases of the game. You're right that he has made many good moves. He's also made dozens of terrible, very expensive moves--any ONE of which would get most GMs fired. They roughly balance out and make him about average in my opinion. He doesn't have a great or a terrible success rate.

how do u qualify that he doesn't have a great success rate when he's got the best track record of all the GM's in the game? does that even begin to make sense to you? how is he average when the vast majority of his moves have helped this team win more games, division titles, AL pennants & WS championships than any other team in baseball? i think these are all legitimate questions to pose to u in light of your comments.

[Edited by - TMS on 01-04-2009 5:01 PM]

Well since you've apologized, I'll go ahead and post my list. I want to be as clear as possible that he's not a bad GM by any means. I just don't think he's accomplished anything miraculous given the unprecedented spending and room for error he's given.I did take shots at him last year because I found the prior off-season and then entire season quite frustrating. Although I don't agree with all of your list, I do agree that he's made many very good moves in the past. He's often worshiped, though, on a level that boggles my mind. And often *any* criticism of him is treated as treasonous. Here are some of his worst decisions that I hope will provide some balance to this thread.

• Keeping 2 unproven players over a Cy Young pitcher in his prime (Johan)
• Relatedly, depending on two unproven kids to comprise 40% of the starting rotation on a $200 mil team
• Signing Roger to $30 mil for 4 mediocre months
• Carl Pavano $40 mil contract
• $46 mil on Kei Igawa
• $32 mil on Contreras who went 6-16 as a starter
• $45 mil on Javy Vaszquez (later paying the D’backs $9 mil of his salary just to take him off our hands)
• $17 mil Kyle Farnsworth
• $21 mil on Jaret Wright
• Kenny Lofton signing; can't find contract value.
• $32 mil contract extension on Randy Johnson for a 4.50 ERA pitcher who stunk in the playoffs/
• Tony Womack signed to be every day 2nd baseman.
• Trading Dioner Navarro for the Old Unit
• $10 mil on Rondell White to be every day outfielder
• Trading Ted Lilly to pick up Jeff Weaver for 4 years @ $22 mil
• Relying on Bernie to be an everyday CFer when he was way past his prime and was a poor hitter and couldn’t throw better than most HS girls.

I think any 3 of the first 9 errors I listed would have been costly enough to get any other GM fired. Together, I've listed about $300 mil in pitchers who in total gave us virtually nothing. Most GMs can't even dream of being given half that much room for error. Cashman is given "wiggle room" to experiment and make errors that no GM in any sport has ever been given. Sure, sometimes it works out great, many times it works out OK, and sometimes it's a disaster.

A lot of people would include Giambi and probably Damon in the list too but I've left them off--Giambi because he's put up good OPS #s and Damon because he's had some solid seasons. Both were disappointments, though.

I think the 3rd place finish was a huge wakeup call to him though and Cashman actually decided to pursue top FAs while in their primes.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 01-04-2009 8:58 PM]

Ignoring your dependence on hindsight and lack of context for a moment, now list the good moves that Cashman has made to balance those so called "fireable offenses" out. They must have been pretty good considering the success that the Yankees have had over Cashman's tenure.

• Keeping 2 unproven players over a Cy Young pitcher in his prime (Johan)
• Relatedly, depending on two unproven kids to comprise 40% of the starting rotation on a $200 mil team

i love how u try & split up 1 move into 2 separate ones... i could probably stretch my list of 48 moves into 90+ using your method.

• Signing Roger to $30 mil for 4 mediocre months

first of all, he was signed for $18.5 million, not 30... everyone in baseball was calling that one a no brainer when it went down, how u gonna second guess it now? did u know Rocket wasn't gonna live up to that contract after having pitched to a 2 ERA in a half season the year before in Houston?

• Carl Pavano $40 mil contract
• $32 mil on Contreras who went 6-16 as a starter

I think the 3rd place finish was a huge wakeup call to him though and Cashman actually decided to pursue top FAs while in their primes.

Pavano wasn't a top FA in his prime when he pursued him? Contreras wasn't the top international FA in his prime on the market when he was signed? those moves didn't work out... fine, it happens to even the best GM in baseball... how u gonna feel if CC & AJB don't work out... how u gonna feel if Mark Tex is a bust in NY? ur gonna hold that against Cashman too?

• $17 mil Kyle Farnsworth
• $21 mil on Jaret Wright

market value contracts given to both guys... Farnsworth was coming off back to back absolutely dominating seasons w/DET & ATL, how can u hold it against Cashman for signing him to that contract to set up for Mo?... $4 mil per over 4 seasons is more than fair value for Farns... & a $21 mil over 3 years deal on Wright was a low risk high possible returns type move, much akin to the Ben Sheets idea that was being tossed around here a couple weeks ago... again, how can u get on Cashman's case for that one? he wasn't being relied upon to be the ace, only to round out the back end of the rotation.

• $32 mil contract extension on Randy Johnson for a 4.50 ERA pitcher who stunk in the playoffs
• Trading Dioner Navarro for the Old Unit

again, u stretch 1 move into 2 separate ones to try & prove ur point... Unit went 5-0 vs. the Red Sox in '05 & was 1 of the main reasons why the Yankees were able to win the division that year... he had back to back 17 win seasons & was a 200+ innings horse for us after we traded for him... how on earth do u call that a failed acquisition? so what that he never fit in to the Yankees' mold all that much or was friendly to the media?... bottomline u got positive production from the guy during his time here... if not performing in the playoffs qualifies someone as a horrible acquisition then u can list almost every major bigname baseball player on the planet on that list.

• $10 mil on Rondell White to be every day outfielder

$5 mil per over 2 seasons for a guy who was coming off 5 consecutive seasons hitting over .300 is what u call a bad move? again, it didn't work out but how can u hold it against Cashman for making it? that is a bargain contract for that level of a player.

• Kenny Lofton signing; can't find contract value.
• Tony Womack signed to be every day 2nd baseman.
• Relying on Bernie to be an everyday CFer when he was way past his prime and was a poor hitter and couldn’t throw better than most HS girls.

Lofton signed for 2 yrs, $6.2 mil... he was brought in as insurance in case Bernie couldn't bounce back from a disappointing injury riddled season the year before, so in fact he WASN'T relying on Bernie to be an everyday CFer like u accuse him of doing... he had a contingency plan in place & executed that plan with a very reasonable contract for a playoffs tested veteran who produced very nicely the year before... Lofton was coming off a year where he batted .296 w/30 SB's for the Pirates & the Cubs... that was an absolute bargain value contract Cashman signed him to... the fact that Torre decided not to play Lofton much is Cashman's fault?... that's pretty funny u'r gonna bring up low cost moves like this to try & prove why Cashman's only an average GM.

& Tony Womack signed a 2 year $4 mil deal... Cashman knew he had Cano in the pipeline to take over at 2B in a year or 2... he didn't wanna sign up some big money FA to play 2B for us & clog up that position... i have no idea how anyone could hold that against Cashman.

Lofton, Womack & Bernie were all a part of the team he put together in '04 that got to the ALCS & were 1 game away from getting to the WS... i thought u considered that a successful season under your stated standards?

• $45 mil on Javy Vaszquez (later paying the D’backs $9 mil of his salary just to take him off our hands)
• $46 mil on Kei Igawa
• Trading Ted Lilly to pick up Jeff Weaver for 4 years @ $22 mil

those 3 are definitely ones i agree with u on & i've been public about criticizing that Javy & Jeff Weaver acquisitions the moment they went down... didn't make an ounce of sense to trade away 2 of your top positional prospects (Nick Johnson & Juan Rivera) or a young talented lefty starter for 2 pitchers w/career ERA's in the 4's & a losing record... Kei Igawa i kept an open mind on especially after Boston had just spent $100 mil to sign up Dice-K but obviously that's another bad move by Cashman there's no getting around that.


on the list i posted earlier i didn't even bother to mention guys like Jon Lieber, Aaron Small, Shawn Chacon, Miguel Cairo, Tony Clark, Doug Mientkewicz, all of whom were great value acquisitions in my view... so with your list of maybe 14 separate moves that u didn't like, there's maybe 55 or more moves that i can point out that were positive ones for the Yankees' franchise... i still don't see where these "dozens of moves" are that you were referring to earlier & how u equate 14 to 55+ as balancing out to be average... whatever, if u think he's average u think he's average... i think i've made a pretty good case to most people that have followed this franchise that he's 1 of the best GM's in baseball.