Posted by TMS:
it all depends on your perspective... don't undervalue the importance of a great reliever... we don't win any of those championships in the 90's w/o Mo, & that includes when he was our 7th & 8th inning relief guy in '96... a great setup man can impact 70 some odd games a year compared to 30 or so for a starter.
For only 1 inning- which may or may not be important. Our championship teams had outstanding starting pitching as well...guys that pitched great in big games.
Posted by VDesai:
Posted by TMS:
it all depends on your perspective... don't undervalue the importance of a great reliever... we don't win any of those championships in the 90's w/o Mo, & that includes when he was our 7th & 8th inning relief guy in '96... a great setup man can impact 70 some odd games a year compared to 30 or so for a starter.
For only 1 inning- which may or may not be important. Our championship teams had outstanding starting pitching as well...guys that pitched great in big games.
1 inning could very well decide a game in a late inning situation as we've often seen... there have been teams that have won the WS w/average starting pitching & a great bullpen... i don't remember the last WS team that won a championship w/a crappy bullpen tho.
So what are you saying- you should take your best pitchers and put them all in the bullpen?
no, i'm saying i think Joba's a more dominant force in the bullpen... we have a good enough starting staff if Hughes can show he can be consistent to make the playoffs... Wang will be back & i have to believe he'll be able to iron out his issues eventually... when the postseason rolls around i'd much rather have Joba pitching the 7th & 8th innings leading up to Mo than to see guys like Marte, Veras & Melancon trying to pitch what many times are the most pivotal innings of the game... what's so hard to undertand about that?
I don't agree or understand this premise that he's a more dominant force in the bullpen. If he's been pitching to 2.85 ERA as a starter and can impact 60% more innings as a starter then I want him as a starter. It means we have 100 more well pitched innings. I wouldn't put Johan Santana or someone like that in the bullpen because he could cut his ERA in half by doing so.
Joba has already pitched like he has the ability to be a top MLB starter. He's pitched like a top MLB reliever too. But I'll take the starter everytime b/c of the fact he can make more impact in terms of actual innings affected.
high quality starters make $20 mil. 4th starters make $10 mil.
the best closers in the game make $13 mil. the best 8th inning guys make $3 mil. there's a reason the pay scale is the way it is.
and for joba to be effective in the 8th, you're gonna need a pitcher(s) to pitch 7 innings and maintain the lead...
i wouldn't put Johan in the bullpen either, but he's a proven ace... Joba hasn't proven jack as a starter... don't give me this 2.85 ERA stuff, he's been very shaky as a starter & u know it... he's struggled w/location & his stuff is not nearly as electric when he's trying to space out his pitches over a 5-7 inning stint as they are when he comes in for 1 or 2... how can u not understand the premise that he's more dominant in the bullpen? all it takes is watching the games, which i'm sure you do... he tops out at 93-94 as a starter & 97-99 as a reliever... getting those extra few mph on his fastball makes his slider & curve that much more effective... pretty basic principle really.
i've seen Joba pitch well as a starter at times but he's also been shaky... as a reliever for the most part he is absolutely dominant... intimidating really... guys looked completely overmatched against him when he was pitching relief innings... his BA against as a starter this year is .306 dude... that's not that great believe it or not... compare that to his BA against as a reliever in the mid 1's & low 2's in '07 & '08 when he was pitching relief.
the fact that he can make more impact in terms of actual innings effected can be countered by the fact he can impact more than double the amount of games as a reliever like i said... it's not so cut & dry when u weigh all these factors & also look at our starting rotation & consider if we have CC, AJB, Wang, Pettitte & Hughes as our starting rotation once Wang comes back... i wouldn't consider using Hughes as a reliever because IMO he doesn't have the mentality to succeed as a late inning relief guy... Joba does, as we've already seen.
Posted by djsunyc:
and for joba to be effective in the 8th, you're gonna need a pitcher(s) to pitch 7 innings and maintain the lead...
ok, so when Wang comes back & say Hughes is pitching well... then what... u make Andy or CC into a long relief guy? u send Hughes back down to AAA?
that's a good problem to have...if they're all pitching well, then it doesn't matter. but my guess would be hughes back to AAA.
my guess is Joba would be put back into the bullpen... no way they'd send Hughes back to AAA if he were pitching well as a starter.
Posted by djsunyc:
when the games get really important - we will use coke + melancon + bruney to get to mariano. i'll put that up against any bullpen in baseball.
I'm speechless
If Hughes continues pitching like this, Wang should go to the pen regardless of how well he comes back. Wang at his best still had an ERA at or above 4. If Hughes is getting the job done, Wang should move to the pen. And I still don't trust guys like Coke enough to say I'm fine with him being in the game in a tight spot. The bullpen is a problem. Melancon has pitched 3 innings so far. Bruney is injured. Marte, Veras and Albaldejo suck. Coke is still iffy. Ramirez is a freekin journey out there. It's not as rosey as it looks. The bullpen is a major weak point.
You're not looking at it with the proper perspective IMO. A 2.85 ERA in your first 16 starts in the majors is about as promising as it gets.
Posted by TMS:
my guess is Joba would be put back into the bullpen... no way they'd send Hughes back to AAA if he were pitching well as a starter.
This is why you don't spend a gazillion dollars on the AJ Burnetts of the world. Now, if Joba AND Hughes play awesome and you want to make room, you can't trade Burnett b/c his contract is so huge. Plus, Wang is waiting in the wings. It's not like he's going to suck forever. He's still an awesome pitcher that just needs to work on some kinks.
He is a good vet pitcher to have though, regardless, and I'm happy to have him.
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by TMS:
my guess is Joba would be put back into the bullpen... no way they'd send Hughes back to AAA if he were pitching well as a starter.
This is why you don't spend a gazillion dollars on the AJ Burnetts of the world. Now, if Joba AND Hughes play awesome and you want to make room, you can't trade Burnett b/c his contract is so huge. Plus, Wang is waiting in the wings. It's not like he's going to suck forever. He's still an awesome pitcher that just needs to work on some kinks.
He is a good vet pitcher to have though, regardless, and I'm happy to have him.
i'm sure after last season, they didn't want to take a chance on the rookies again for an entire year. plus, next season, if hughes + joba are pitching great, then they don't have to re-sign pettitte.
it's very early for hughes and joba...they are still on innings limits.
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:
when the games get really important - we will use coke + melancon + bruney to get to mariano. i'll put that up against any bullpen in baseball.
I'm speechless
i understand...but bullpens in baseball are crapshoots. 1 year it's good, the next year it's bad. coke + melancon + bruney have not proven anything...but i like their makeup and their stuff. that's why i'm 100% confident in them. whether they succeed or not is a different story but i believe they will. we went down that road of paying big $$$'s for middle relievers and it burned us b/c that's the way it goes with middle relief pitchers. that's why i put those 3 up against anybody else for innings 6-8.
Posted by VDesai:
You're not looking at it with the proper perspective IMO. A 2.85 ERA in your first 16 starts in the majors is about as promising as it gets.
I agree with that. I think the team desperately needs him in the pen but they desperately need him starting too! It's a tough situation. I think I'll revise my previous position though. It probably won't be in his long-term interests to keep switching things around. Give starting a full chance and then evaluate.
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:
when the games get really important - we will use coke + melancon + bruney to get to mariano. i'll put that up against any bullpen in baseball.
I'm speechless
i understand...but bullpens in baseball are crapshoots. 1 year it's good, the next year it's bad. coke + melancon + bruney have not proven anything...but i like their makeup and their stuff. that's why i'm 100% confident in them. whether they succeed or not is a different story but i believe they will. we went down that road of paying big $$$'s for middle relievers and it burned us b/c that's the way it goes with middle relief pitchers. that's why i put those 3 up against anybody else for innings 6-8.
It's one thing to say there's a chance they'll do great but you've gotta take probabilities seriously. Bullpens with relievers who have histories of performing well have to be ranked higher than bullpens with guys who are simply big question marks. You can't tell me with a straight face that if Melancon, Coke, and Bruney were the setup men on any other baseball team, you'd say "I think they have the best bullpen in baseball."
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 04-30-2009 11:50 AM]
i'm sorry bonn but i do. i think their stuff is the sh t. i also think they are mentally ready for the roles. coke has been great for us. bruney was throwing laser beams until the injury. and melancon has been highly touted for a while now. i'm sold on them and i trust them.
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by TMS:
my guess is Joba would be put back into the bullpen... no way they'd send Hughes back to AAA if he were pitching well as a starter.
This is why you don't spend a gazillion dollars on the AJ Burnetts of the world. Now, if Joba AND Hughes play awesome and you want to make room, you can't trade Burnett b/c his contract is so huge. Plus, Wang is waiting in the wings. It's not like he's going to suck forever. He's still an awesome pitcher that just needs to work on some kinks.
He is a good vet pitcher to have though, regardless, and I'm happy to have him.
i'm still optimistic on AJB cuz the BA against for him this season is .239... guys aren't hitting him as much as he's hurting himself by walking guys & giving up big hits w/men on base... after last season there's no way the Yanks could have come into this year in a brand new stadium & raised expectations by having the same kids starting games when they failed so miserably last season... hopefully Hughes can stick this time around & Kennedy will eventually be able to become a part of the starting rotation, but right now i'll put my money on AJB... if we already had a reliable setup man i wouldn't even be discussing Joba being put back in the pen... this is about what i feel is best for this team & how we can put the pieces we have in place to be the most successful... if Hughes is pitching well i really don't see any way we can't have Joba setting up again... that gives us absolute dominance for 70+ games this season after the 6th inning, which no other team in baseball has... it's a big psychologic advantage as well when teams know you're pretty much done if you don't have a lead after the 6th inning... right now our bullpen isn't scaring anyone.
