Still I would not give up on Joba as a starter. Young guys just have growing pains. We need to rebuild his confidence.
Posted by VDesai:
Still I would not give up on Joba as a starter. Young guys just have growing pains. We need to rebuild his confidence.
Absolutely agree. I'd have to assume his arm is too fatigued now. I'd give him a good chunk of next season as a starter too. I'd want to give him every possible opportunity to use him as a starter before moving him to the bullpen.
shoulda never messed w/him to begin with... he was throwing well... if it ain't broke don't fix it, unless it's Joba, in which case let's jerk him around as much as possible... to hell with the Joba Rules... time to take off the diapers & let this kid throw.
Posted by TMS:
shoulda never messed w/him to begin with... he was throwing well... if it ain't broke don't fix it, unless it's Joba, in which case let's jerk him around as much as possible... to hell with the Joba Rules... time to take off the diapers & let this kid throw.
ever since the shoulder injury last year, he hasn't consistently hit the 96-98 mark. when he was throwing at that speed, he was looking like a potential dominant starter. his speed is down sub 94 so he's throwing alot more sliders like 2-3 times an at bat.
yankee concerns heading into the postseason:
1. aj burnett
2. andy pettitte
and a distant 3rd. cc sabathia
cc has to prove it in the postseason but he has had the best year of the bunch for the longest period of time.
andy has been great since the break but he's old and hopefully that "shoulder fatigue" skipped start was just BS.
aj is the big one...even if he throws 2-3 no hitters before october, there's no telling what will happen in the postseason.
not worried about joba b/c we have enough pitchers to piece meal a 4th start - even if joba lasts 1-2 innings (like clemens did vs. the indians in 06).
our offense has been great this year...especially late in games. i also hope girardi is confident enough to use hughes for 4-5 out holds instead of his regular season cookie cutter formula.
[Edited by - djsunyc on 09-21-2009 3:01 PM]
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TMS:
shoulda never messed w/him to begin with... he was throwing well... if it ain't broke don't fix it, unless it's Joba, in which case let's jerk him around as much as possible... to hell with the Joba Rules... time to take off the diapers & let this kid throw.
ever since the shoulder injury last year, he hasn't consistently hit the 96-98 mark. when he was throwing at that speed, he was looking like a potential dominant starter. his speed is down sub 94 so he's throwing alot more sliders like 2-3 times an at bat.
the reason he hasn't hit the 96-98 consistently is because he's become a fulltime starter... he is not Justin Verlander who can sustain that kinda velocity throughout a full 9 innings... when he was throwing relief for 2 innings every other night, he could let loose & fire his fastball w/o worry about tiring out later on in the game... he no longer has that luxury... now his fastball tops out around 94 mph for the most part, where sometimes he can crank it up to around 96 or 97 on a pitch here & there in a big spot... u can see the same kinda velocity increase in Phil Hughes ever since he's been put into the setup role... he's now hitting 96 mph consistently whereas in most of his starts i've seen him being clocked usually around the 92-93 mph range on his fastballs through 5 or 6 innings.
we discussed all this ever since Joba was put into a starting role, he's just not as dominant as he was when he was pitching in relief... same goes for Phil Hughes... these kids will have to learn how to pitch & vary speeds more in the right situations if they want to achieve the "ace" potential that the Yankees see in these kids... right now they are throwers more than they are pitchers relying on their fastballs & 1 other out pitch... that's plenty good enough for relief work but as a starter you need more to fall back on than that... even Joba acknowledges in interviews the fact that he wishes he could throw a better changeup & that he's working on that, but it's a feel pitch & it takes time to perfect... u see this happen in many talented young pitchers coming up in the majors... Zach Grienke is an example for the Royals before he finally took the next step towards achieving ace status this season & he had depression issues to deal with as well... when Joba perfects a 3rd pitch to go w/his fastball & devastating slider, he'll be a much more effective pitcher on a more consistent basis, because he may not have have all of his pitches working for him on any given night... if the fastball location is off 1 night or if his slider isn't breaking quite the way that it should, then he will need that 3rd go to pitch... developing a change or a splitter would do wonders for his effectiveness & ability to get the better hitters out at the ML level... the same goes for Phil Hughes, he can't just rely on his fastball & curve all the time if u put him back into the starting rotation... he's thrown some cutters & 2 finger but those are both essentially fastballs too... for Hughes i think a change would be particularly effective cuz of his quick, snappy throwing motion, so he should be able to better sell the deception of the change than Joba can... just my personal opinion.
IMO the only way for Joba & Hughes to learn is by letting them take their bumps & bruises in whatever role u choose for them, whether that be as a starter or as a reliever... constantly jerking them around in & out of the rotation & in & out of the bullpen is hurting their development IMO... just take off the damn kid gloves & let these kids settle into the roles u want them in & leave them there i say!
joba's as a starter last season: 10 starts, about 58 ip, 66 k's, about 2.5 era (not counting 1st and last start)
joba's as a starter this season: 29 starts, 146 innings, 124 k's, 4.7 era
inning to k ratio is way way down which i think is 100% due to velocity. he can't rear back and strike people out which prolongs the at bat...
i've been watching Joba's velocity closely every game i see him pitch & i'm telling u right now his fastball was never consistently in the 96-98 mph range as a starter in any games i ever watched him pitch... i wish i had some stats to show to prove this but i don't believe K's to IP'd ratio is a telling factor of fastball velocity in this case... Joba gets most of his K's off his slider anyway so i'm not sure how much value i can put into those stats u posted.
it's only as a reliever that his velocity is sustained at those levels over 1 or 2 innings w/1 day of rest in between... even in games where he'd come in on a back to back while he was setting up for Mo, his velocity would usually dip to around 94-95 mph on the 2nd night of a back to back appearance... i'm not the only one who's noticed this, Michael Kay & the guys in the booth have touched on the same observations in game commentary as well many times before... it's very noticeable.
I think it's time to start to panic about the division.
Posted by GKFv2:
I think it's time to start to panic about the division.
Yeah we're not playing well at all right now. I'm concerned. Nice to see that KC showed up tonight and came back to beat the Red Sox. Perfect opportunity to pick up a game here...Pettitte looked OK though so if there's a silver lining he's it. I just can't believe how they just psyche themsleves out when it's time to play the Angels especially at their place. Game's not over yet but it's 4-1 (Morales just hit a bomb off Bruney who's been awful since he's come back from injury -- I don't trust this guy at all, we need Robertson back in the worst way) and they just look lifeless. They're making this guy Saunders look like Sandy Koufax. They should be destroying this guy.
Alright that's more like it. Matsui with a pinch hit HR to straight away CF. 4-2 now. God forbid we had any runners on. Seems like every time someone gets on, they're just quickly erased on a DP. Maybe we have one of our late inning comebacks in us tonight. I can't stand the sight of this Angel team. I wanna beat these guys so bad. Show some fight damnit!!
take that angels...a little taste of your own medicine with brett's speed + damon bunt + arod sac fly...
if gardner can be a consistent .280 hitter, he would give us a whole new complexion. bring in crawford in 2011 and you're looking at some big time speed in the outfield...
Well he's already a .280 hitter. I'd like to see him hit a little higher or add some power but he's definitely an effective role player now. I'm a big Crawford fan. I'd love to add him.
CC is the least replaceable Yankee now IMO.
Yeah good game. And we clinched a playoff spot. I thought we were gonna piss that one away but we hung tough. That strike 'em out/throw 'em out play was awesome. That was the ball game right there. Hughes was real gritty too and it didn't even look like he had his best stuff. DJ you're right on point bro - Gardner just brings that extra dimension that can really change a game. His speed won that game for us. I love him in the 9 hole. I can't wait for Robertson to come back - the way that kid was throwing, if he were available last night, the Angels probably don't even tie that game up. He's gonna be very important for us in the post season. These other 6th/7th inning guys we have (Bruney, Marte...) aren't nearly as effective. Bruney & Marte actually make me cringe in a big spot. Ace has been very good but his stuff isn't as dominating as Robertson's. Supposedly, Robertson has one more bullpen to throw and if all goes well (he's saying he feels great) he should be back in under a week. Nice to here Pettitte felt fine a day after his start too. That's big. I'd love to see AJ throw a good game today...
That strike 'em out/throw 'em out play was awesome.
whenever a team seems to always come up a short against another team...it takes a big break or special play to change everything.
i'm talking about the roberts stolen base in game 4 of the ALCS in 2004.
that strike 'em out/throw 'em out play *could* be that play. we were winless in anaheim until that play...
So our magic number is 6 now?
gaudin earning a 4th starter spot...and we can piece meal that start with our pen.
but we won't need a 4th starter until the ALCS...
I'm not so quick to give Gaudin the starting spot. He did good for 4 and 2/3 innings, but he got smacked pretty quick and hard after that, just as he was in his last start against the Angels.
Not that Joba has earned it, but sometimes you just have to go with the man with the better stuff and pray it doesn't backfire.
Posted by Allanfan20:
I'm not so quick to give Gaudin the starting spot. He did good for 4 and 2/3 innings, but he got smacked pretty quick and hard after that, just as he was in his last start against the Angels.
Not that Joba has earned it, but sometimes you just have to go with the man with the better stuff and pray it doesn't backfire.
4th starter ain't going more than 4 innings anyway in the postseason...joba has been pitching poorly for a long stretch of the season. gaudin is peaking. let him start and then pull him quick if he stinks it up.
I give it to Gaudin too. I said weeks ago that this Joba "strategy" would backfire wondrously and it certainly has--didn't even need to wait for the postseason. May as well keep him out of the rotation and let him believe he's got nothin to lose if he is called upon.
Magic number = 5 games. We don't face Greinke when we play against KC. That's a good thing.
Boston plays today. Maybe KC can pull off the upset and bring it down to 4 for us.
i'm trying to figure this out...who's better...the yankees or the yankees?
