Off Topic · Yankees Talk thread (page 459)

Yeah that's way counterintuitive. They aren't getting a first rounder who's as good as Montero most likely. I'm not convinced Soria has the good to pitch in NY (didn't he say he didn't want to come here). If they are going to give up those prospects they should go after a big starting pitcher.

Yankees closing in on picking up Justin Duchscherer. He puts up good ERA numbers when healthy but is always hurt and has been for a couple of years.

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/n...

any chance you know if Duchscherer is a class A free agent?

cuz if we're gonna give up a 1st rounder for a 33 yo starter who throws mostly offspeed junk coming off 2 years of inactivity due to injury & clinical depression, but not willing to do so for a flame throwing reliever that saved the most games in the majors last season & dominated the AL East, then i'm gonna recommend he go see a headshrink this offseason.

TMS wrote:any chance you know if Duchscherer is a class A free agent?

cuz if we're gonna give up a 1st rounder for a 33 yo starter who throws mostly offspeed junk coming off 2 years of inactivity due to injury & clinical depression, but not willing to do so for a flame throwing reliever that saved the most games in the majors last season & dominated the AL East, then i'm gonna recommend he go see a headshrink this offseason.

No, I don't think he is: http://baseball.about.com/od/newsrumors/...

I really don't know what to say, man. Just not a Duchscherer fan at all. I'm with you TMS--if we would've had to give up a draft pick for this guy I think I would've shit myself..I mean I would've been fine with Brad Penny (I think he went to the Tigers I believe on a 1-yr deal). See to me a guy like Penny, if we would've caught him right, has a chance to be DOMINANT. 95-97 MPH last year before he went down for the Cards...Hey maybe I'm wrong about this guy Duchscherer, he's had success before, but I just don't see it. And we're not getting him off his best year. This is by far the worst off-season we've had in some time.

Finestrg wrote:

TMS wrote:any chance you know if Duchscherer is a class A free agent?

cuz if we're gonna give up a 1st rounder for a 33 yo starter who throws mostly offspeed junk coming off 2 years of inactivity due to injury & clinical depression, but not willing to do so for a flame throwing reliever that saved the most games in the majors last season & dominated the AL East, then i'm gonna recommend he go see a headshrink this offseason.

No, I don't think he is: http://baseball.about.com/od/newsrumors/...

I really don't know what to say, man. Just not a Duchscherer fan at all. I'm with you TMS--if we would've had to give up a draft pick for this guy I think I would've shit myself..I mean I would've been fine with Brad Penny (I think he went to the Tigers I believe on a 1-yr deal). See to me a guy like Penny, if we would've caught him right, has a chance to be DOMINANT. 95-97 MPH last year before he went down for the Cards...Hey maybe I'm wrong about this guy Duchscherer, he's had success before, but I just don't see it. And we're not getting him off his best year. This is by far the worst off-season we've had in some time.

yea dude, just saw it on the ESPN ticker that the Tigers signed Penny to a 1 year $3M deal... come on Cash... 1 yr $3M scared u away from signing that guy?... wow... i feel like i'm in the Twilight Zone... it's like we've become the Pittsburgh Pirates all of a sudden, can't sign any worthwhile FA's & afraid to spend money.

I mean come on man -- Justin Duchscherer?? Soft-tosser, ain't foolin' anybody & most important, he's coming off injury AND he's never been a work horse (the most this dude's ever pitched was 141 innings 2 years ago---every other year for the As he's been less than 100 IP)...I mean WTF was wrong with Brad Penny? I would've been fine with him..We really needed another QUALITY starting pitcher we could've penciled into the rotation anywhere from 2-5 with confidence. That and another GOOD bullpen arm or two..I mean all we picked up so far were a bunch of question marks..Russell Martin, Mark Prior, maybe now Justin Duchscherer -- who knows what the hell we're gonna get outta these guys..They're all coming off injury; one guy, Mark Prior, has been out of the league for years & is attempting a career comeback..It's really a shame -- this is a win now team, still a very good team with very good pieces in place..To me, you got a team like this in place, you continue to go the whole 9 every offseason (esp when your arch rival re-loaded the way they did) until it becomes clear that the run's over & it's time to break it all down and rebuild..I mean I thought that was always our philosophy??? Thing is, we ain't there yet--we're a 90+ win team..Good but not good enough to probably win it all..We still have many top players still in their prime..To me, if you go out to establish a core like that (A-Rod, Tex, re-signing Jeter, CC, threw a ton of money at Burnett, pulled off a major trade for Curtis Granderson) and then all of a sudden decide against filling in around them, it's a failure, plain & simple..I feel like we're in baseball limbo right now, honestly. The only thing I can think of is that after Cliff Lee, they just weren't really enamoured with any of these 2nd tier 2011 FAs at all -- maybe their plan B has to do with spending a lot of money next off-season..If that were the case, I don't agree with it (how can you just concede the year like that??) but at least you can say there was some kind of plan in place..

Do you have any idea what salary we have coming off the books next off-season and then what top 2012 FAs we could be looking at??

Finestrg wrote:Do you have any idea what salary we have coming off the books next off-season and then what top 2012 FAs we could be looking at??

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01...

Mo Rivera ($15M - obviously will be resigned)
Jorge Posada ($11M - resigned at a lesser deal to be the DH?)
Robinson Cano ($14M club option - obviously will be picked up)
Nick Swisher ($10.25M club option)
Damaso Marte ($4M club option)
Russell Martin ($4M)

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/03/20...

there's really no positional players that make sense for us on that list... there's some pitching names I think the Yankees might be interested in:

Mark Buerle (I doubt the White Sox would let him go though)
Roy Oswalt
Jonathan Broxton
Matt Capps
Joe Nathan
Jonathan Papelbon (ugh, I think I'd puke if we got him though)
K-Rod (if his $17.5M option is not picked up)
Joel Zumaya

So much for all those articles saying Cashman wouldn't give up a pick, we apparently just signed Rafael Soriano (finally!)
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/n...
3/35 mil.

Personally I'd move Joba back into the rotation, but I think I'm the only one on the site who thinks that. I think his problem is fastball command and he'd be fine in either role once he gets that back. He's a 4 pitch guy and if can be good in the rotation he's more valuable there.

Anyway, without a doubt we have one of the best back ends of the bullpen in the league, if not the best pen overall. Feliciano and Logan will be good against lefties and now you can go with Robertson, Soriano, Mariano...thats quite good.

VDesai wrote:So much for all those articles saying Cashman wouldn't give up a pick, we apparently just signed Rafael Soriano (finally!)
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/n...
3/35 mil.

Personally I'd move Joba back into the rotation, but I think I'm the only one on the site who thinks that. I think his problem is fastball command and he'd be fine in either role once he gets that back. He's a 4 pitch guy and if can be good in the rotation he's more valuable there.

Anyway, without a doubt we have one of the best back ends of the bullpen in the league, if not the best pen overall. Feliciano and Logan will be good against lefties and now you can go with Robertson, Soriano, Mariano...thats quite good.

good to see Cashman finally came to his senses & came off his “I will not lose our No. 1 draft pick" comments... if we came out of this offseason w/nothing but Russell Martin & some pitching retreads, we'd be up sheit's creek without a paddle.

Great! He's put up some awesome numbers. We're still in trouble as far as our division goes, though. We're not the clear number one team like in years past.

This tandem is now our difference maker and hasn't been seen since Wettland (sp?) / Rivera. I'm very excited by this move. Maybe Pettite decides to give it one more go???

Des i agree about moving joba back into the rotation. Theres really no need for him in the bullpen and with seemingly no plan re: a 5th starter maybe this is what they are thinking. Either move him or trade him but joba in the pen makes zero sense

BigSm00th wrote:Des i agree about moving joba back into the rotation. Theres really no need for him in the bullpen and with seemingly no plan re: a 5th starter maybe this is what they are thinking. Either move him or trade him but joba in the pen makes zero sense

with the loss of Aceves we will need Joba to provide depth in the pen... Joba did not work out well as a starting pitcher... Mitre posted better numbers as a spot starter last year... he should have just been left to be the setup guy from the start but the Yankees tried to get cute w/his development & it came to bite us in the ass... i think it's time to stop jerking this guy around & let him focus on being the best relief pitcher he can be... otherwise trade him for a player that can fill the starter's role.

TMS wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:Des i agree about moving joba back into the rotation. Theres really no need for him in the bullpen and with seemingly no plan re: a 5th starter maybe this is what they are thinking. Either move him or trade him but joba in the pen makes zero sense

with the loss of Aceves we will need Joba to provide depth in the pen... Joba did not work out well as a starting pitcher... Mitre posted better numbers as a spot starter last year... he should have just been left to be the setup guy from the start but the Yankees tried to get cute w/his development & it came to bite us in the ass... i think it's time to stop jerking this guy around & let him focus on being the best relief pitcher he can be... otherwise trade him for a player that can fill the starter's role.

I don't agree that he failed as a starter. By that same logic, Hughes would've been considered a failure as a starter and better as a reliever too. I think in generalyou can't expect a young pitcher to be lights out right away- Joba came up with 3-4 pitches he could use and still could be a good starter. Its not like he's tried starting for 4 years and failed- he only has 43 starts.

His main problem right now is his fastball command which hurt him in the relief role last year at times too. Both he and Hughes still have a tendency to try and make a perfect pitch rather than agressively go after batters with the fastball. When both Hughes and Joba focused on doing that as relievers the results were much, much better. CC Sabathia is a guy who struggled with that a bit the first 4-5 years of his career too, but now he challenges hitters all the time. As a result you've seen his walks per innings pitched number decline signifcantly and he's one of the best pitchers in the league. When your velocity and movement is that good you can't be afraid of batters making contact because more often than not it will be weak contact, which equals outs, foul balls and getting ahead in counts...

But anyway, if the Yanks brass really believes Joba can't pitch more confidently with better command than they absolutely have to move him. There is no way you take a talented piece like that and make him a long reliever. If that is his role, he is much, much more valuable in a trade. IMO, he's got to be in the rotation or moved for a piece that can help us more.

VDesai wrote:

TMS wrote:

BigSm00th wrote:Des i agree about moving joba back into the rotation. Theres really no need for him in the bullpen and with seemingly no plan re: a 5th starter maybe this is what they are thinking. Either move him or trade him but joba in the pen makes zero sense

with the loss of Aceves we will need Joba to provide depth in the pen... Joba did not work out well as a starting pitcher... Mitre posted better numbers as a spot starter last year... he should have just been left to be the setup guy from the start but the Yankees tried to get cute w/his development & it came to bite us in the ass... i think it's time to stop jerking this guy around & let him focus on being the best relief pitcher he can be... otherwise trade him for a player that can fill the starter's role.

I don't agree that he failed as a starter. By that same logic, Hughes would've been considered a failure as a starter and better as a reliever too. I think in generalyou can't expect a young pitcher to be lights out right away- Joba came up with 3-4 pitches he could use and still could be a good starter. Its not like he's tried starting for 4 years and failed- he only has 43 starts.

His main problem right now is his fastball command which hurt him in the relief role last year at times too. Both he and Hughes still have a tendency to try and make a perfect pitch rather than agressively go after batters with the fastball. When both Hughes and Joba focused on doing that as relievers the results were much, much better. CC Sabathia is a guy who struggled with that a bit the first 4-5 years of his career too, but now he challenges hitters all the time. As a result you've seen his walks per innings pitched number decline signifcantly and he's one of the best pitchers in the league. When your velocity and movement is that good you can't be afraid of batters making contact because more often than not it will be weak contact, which equals outs, foul balls and getting ahead in counts...

But anyway, if the Yanks brass really believes Joba can't pitch more confidently with better command than they absolutely have to move him. There is no way you take a talented piece like that and make him a long reliever. If that is his role, he is much, much more valuable in a trade. IMO, he's got to be in the rotation or moved for a piece that can help us more.

the less exposure we give him as a starting pitcher right now, the better... let him get his command & velocity right before he has to worry about game planning for starts... if he can start off the season & put up a good ERA in a late inning relief role, he will still attract attention from other teams.

from lohud http://yankees.lhblogs.com/: Reports of a divided Yankees front officecontinue to surface in the wake of the Rafael Soriano signing. It might not be a huge issue — baseball people disagree all the time — and it should come as no surprise that the people in charge of the money ultimately have the ability to spend it as they see fit. Brian Cashman might have disagreed, but he reportedlydidn’t try to stand in the way when it became clear that ownership wanted to make the move, and Cashman reportedly still has the “full backing” of the Steinbrenners.

Frankly, from the very beginning, the Soriano signing never seemed like a Cashman signing. It goes against his bullpen strategy of the past three years, and it goes against his public comments of the previous week. But in the end, this is not his team, and if ownership wants to make a move, ownership can make a move.

don't really think this matters b/c of the opt outs. i don't think soriano will be a yankee beyond 1 season. i think he's lights out for us this year and opts out. he's a boras client -- have these weasels ever done it differently?

so if it amounts to a 1 yr 12 mil for soriano i think its an excellent signing.

cashman also is apparently set to keep joba in the bullpen -- and i guess cede the 5th spot to sergio mitre if pettitte doesn't come back? i personally don't get this -- you've already basically screwed joba's career enough, why not just completely fuck him and use him how u need him - now as a 5th starter. we shall see.

if Soriano isn't happy being a setup guy after this season, we can always trade him to a team looking for a closer... he doesn't have a no trade clause in this contract... or we can buy him out of his contract for a minimal amount... personally i don't see how he could get more money in free agency if he opted out unless he just had an even more dominant season than he had last year, in which case we win out anyway... it's a big risk w/the money involved, but i think we had to do it & i'm glad the Steinbrenner's stepped up to the plate & took action... George woulda done the same thing... actually if George was around, we woulda gave up the prospects it would have taken to get the Cliff Lee trade done with Seattle.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/j...

Yankees aren't looking to trade Joba -- yet
Yankees Blog

By BRIAN COSTELLO

Last Updated: 11:47 AM, January 15, 2011

The arrival of Rafael Soriano to the Yankees could lead to the departure of Joba Chamberlain.

Just not yet, according to a source.

When the Yankees agreed to a three-year deal with reliever Soriano on Thursday, it immediately cast doubt on the future of Chamberlain. He had been viewed as Mariano Rivera's successor after his memorable arrival in 2007. But three up-and-down seasons later, it is clear the Yankees have lost confidence in the 25-year-old former phenom.

The Yankees did not believe he could handle being Rivera's primary setup man -- a role he failed in last year -- and they grabbed Soriano off the free agent market.

So, where does that leave Chamberlain?

According to a source, the Yankees have no plans of trading Chamberlain right now, but they would listen to offers. There is also no talk of moving him back to the starting rotation, where he failed in 2008 and 2009.

The Yankees have to gauge Chamberlain's trade value. In 2007 and 2008 he was viewed as a future superstar, but his ERA has been over 4.00 in each of the past two seasons, and he has struggled in a variety of roles.

"He's definitely got value," an NL talent evaluator said yesterday. "The problem is in the past two years his stuff has gone backwards."

There is a belief around baseball that the Yankees will move him back into the starting rotation with Soriano now filling the setup role. The Yankees have said all winter that Chamberlain will remain a reliever after bouncing back and forth for his first three years.

Some teams also believe the Yankees have messed up Chamberlain, but he can be fixed in the proper situation with the proper coaching.

"It depends on how the organization that would be interested in him would view him," the talent evaluator said. "There's still some people that think he can start."

An AL talent evaluator said it will become clear in spring training how much value Chamberlain has. Then, everyone will see how the Yankees are using him, and you will be able to tell if there's interest based on how many scouts come to his outings.

The return on Chamberlain might not be enough for the Yankees to deal him. He still is viewed as an important piece of their bullpen, pitching mainly in the sixth or seventh innings along with David Robertson.

As for Soriano, the Yankees don't expect to make his contract official until Monday at the earliest.

ESPN reported yesterday there is a rift between general manager Brian Cashman and ownership, and the Steinbrenners, rather than Cashman and his staff, drove the Soriano signing. A team source denied there is any divide in the organization. Cashman did not return phone calls yesterday.

There is an appearance that Cashman was overruled on Soriano because of his public statements last week that he would not surrender a first-round pick for any of the remaining Type A free agents. With the Soriano signing, the Yankees surrendered their top pick to the Rays.

*

Chamberlain, Phil Hughes and Boone Logan filed for arbitration yesterday. Teams and players will exchange salary figures on Tuesday.

BigSm00th wrote:from lohud http://yankees.lhblogs.com/: Reports of a divided Yankees front officecontinue to surface in the wake of the Rafael Soriano signing. It might not be a huge issue — baseball people disagree all the time — and it should come as no surprise that the people in charge of the money ultimately have the ability to spend it as they see fit. Brian Cashman might have disagreed, but he reportedlydidn’t try to stand in the way when it became clear that ownership wanted to make the move, and Cashman reportedly still has the “full backing” of the Steinbrenners.

Frankly, from the very beginning, the Soriano signing never seemed like a Cashman signing. It goes against his bullpen strategy of the past three years, and it goes against his public comments of the previous week. But in the end, this is not his team, and if ownership wants to make a move, ownership can make a move.

don't really think this matters b/c of the opt outs. i don't think soriano will be a yankee beyond 1 season. i think he's lights out for us this year and opts out. he's a boras client -- have these weasels ever done it differently?

so if it amounts to a 1 yr 12 mil for soriano i think its an excellent signing.

cashman also is apparently set to keep joba in the bullpen -- and i guess cede the 5th spot to sergio mitre if pettitte doesn't come back? i personally don't get this -- you've already basically screwed joba's career enough, why not just completely fuck him and use him how u need him - now as a 5th starter. we shall see.

I don't get why so many people make excuses for Joba. He's had several chances at both starting and relieving and in the past few years been unimpressive in both roles.

for anyone concerned about the talk about Soriano's attitude or his alleged unwillingness to take the ball every game, the Rays' pitching coach thinks the Yankees made a great signing:

When Rafael Soriano showed up for the first day of spring training last season, the Tampa Bay Rays had no idea what to expect. They knew him from afar, a 6-1, 220-pound righthander with a menacing stare and a mid-90s fastball that helped him pile up saves with the Atlanta Braves. But neither manager Joe Maddon nor anyone else on his coaching staff really knew their new closer.

He didn't make a good first impression.

"He came in and told us what he wanted to do to get ready for the season and how he wanted to be used during it," Rays pitching coach Jim Hickey told the Daily News in a telephone interview Friday. "That usually goes over like a lead balloon."

It didn't take long for Soriano to change everyone's take. He seemed to be conserving himself physically in the first weeks of spring training, but it turned out to be a prelude to a season where he was arguably the most reliable, durable and effective finisher in baseball. Soriano was 'lights out' from Opening Day through the end of the season. He had a 3-2 record with 45 saves in 48 opportunities and posted a stunning 1.73 ERA over 64 appearances as the Rays won the AL East.

"It turned out he knew exactly what he needed to be the most effective player he could be," Hickey said. "He was the consummate pro. He took the ball every time he was asked, pitched well almost every single time we called on him and on days when I expected he would tell me he couldn't pitch he almost always said ‘whatever you need from me today.'

"I wish we were the ones signed up for three more years with him."

....

"I know people may wonder about how he will do going back to not finishing games, but I don't think there's any reason to think he will be less effective," Hickey said. "He's getting the ball to Mariano Rivera for the ninth inning. That's the same as pitching to end the game. At least that's how it's been with Rivera for the last 15 years."

....

There are some negative perceptions of Soriano in baseball, that he won't pitch through pain and that he resented being asked to pitch in non-save situations. Hickey saw none of it during their one year together. "I might have learned something else were there more adversity," he said, "but there never was any. It was smooth sailing through the whole season."

Soriano wanted a big-money deal this offseason, which may be the reason he fired agent Peter Greenberg in favor of Scott Boras. It seemed harsh treatment after Greenberg had taken the bold gamble that resulted in a closing role on a contending team with a $7.25 million contract. The Braves had signed Billy Wagner to close in 2010, but offered Soriano salary arbitration to ensure they'd get draft picks when he signed elsewhere; Greenberg had Soriano accept the offer so they could orchestrate the trade to the Rays.

But it's Soriano's pitching that is most important to the Yankees and their fans, and on that note he excels. Soriano throws two- and four-seam fastballs and mixes them with a cutter, a slider and an occasional changeup.

"He's not a 'stuff guy' even though he has great stuff and his career isn't defined by one incredible pitch that he throws," Hickey said. "He knows how to pitch, how to use all his pitches, and he is incredible at reading the hitters."

Hickey said it was not uncommon last season for Soriano to show up in the dugout during one of the early innings to point out that certain hitters were looking for specific pitches and to suggest what they might be vulnerable against.

"How many closers do things like that?" Hickey asked. "But that's just Soriano. He was a great teammate to our guys.

"Now he's pitching in our division against us. I can only hope he struggles."

concerning the draft pick we gave up to sign Soriano:

As for losing the draft pick and giving Soriano three years when he seemingly didn't have a market, Cashman will get that draft pick back if Soriano chooses to exercise the opt out in any of the three years of the deal, and there are no no-trade clauses in the contract, which means the Yankees can deal him anywhere.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2011/01/15/2011-01-15_rafael_soriano_is_new_setup_man_for_yankees_but_there_are_concerns_about_his_pri.html#ixzz1BE8ksPeX

from ESPN:

Could Chamberlain be traded? According to Brian Costello of the one more shot.

Marchand writes an open letter to GM Brian Cashman on the idea, noting that Chamberlain's 4.18 ERA in those 43 outings is better than the 4.50 ERA put up by Ivan Nova in seven starts a year ago, and the career ERA over five by Sergio Mitre, who appear to be the No. 4 and 5 starters unless other arms are added to the mix.

Marchand points out that moving Chamberlain back to the rotation could kill two birds with one stone. "Right now, Chamberlain's trade value is low," Marchand wrote. "The only way to increase that is to put him in a more important role. So not only could he solve your biggest problem, he could be used to address your next one. Seems like a win-win."