Posted by TMS:
1 of the main reasons why he was traded to the Mets was because they were the only team willing to pay that hefty a price tag to re-sign him to begin with... the Yankees were not willing to sign him to 6 guaranteed years, they were offering 5 years as rumors had it... plus they didn't wanna have to give up their top 2 pitching prospects when other teams were offering much less.
why should CC settle for significantly less than what he could get on the open market unless the team that trades for him gives him a market value contract? considering what Johan just signed for i dunno that any team other than the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers could even afford to pay that high a contract right now.
because he could blow out his elbow the next day. If he's offered $100 mil by the team that trades for him, I doubt he's gonna pass up on that money just to see if the Yankees will offer $110 or $115 over the off-season when anything could happen between now and then.
Posted by TMS:
1 of the main reasons why he was traded to the Mets was because they were the only team willing to pay that hefty a price tag to re-sign him to begin with... the Yankees were not willing to sign him to 6 guaranteed years, they were offering 5 years as rumors had it... plus they didn't wanna have to give up their top 2 pitching prospects when other teams were offering much less.
That's really not true. Several teams had interest in acquiring Johan but Johan wanted NY or Bos. Yanks never made an official offer, RedSox and Mets did.
the 6 year extension part has never been verified, merely assumed on the part of sportswriters... some reports i read at the time suggested the Yankees were very reluctant to sign anyone to a 6 yr deal.
the offer of prospects part is straight from the mouth of Hank, & according to him the Yankees did make an official offer to acquire Johan:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseba...Hank Steinbrenner says Yankee offer for Johan Santana is 'fair'
BY BILL MADDEN and MARK FEINSAND
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITERS
Monday, December 3rd 2007, 4:00 AM
NASHVILLE - With all the parties descending upon the winter meetings, the Red Sox upped the ante in the Johan Santana sweepstakes Sunday by offering to include previously untouchable rookie center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury in a deal for the Twins' premier lefthander.
At the same time, a "very irritated" Hank Steinbrenner said he's had enough of the Santana sweepstakes and wants it resolved Monday.
It was unclear if Ellsbury's inclusion still would be enough enticement for the Twins - especially since the Red Sox further revised their offer by saying that neither of their two coveted young pitchers, Clay Buchholz or Jon Lester, would be included with Ellsbury. And if the Red Sox's new proposal was designed to force the Yankees' hand in including Ian Kennedy in their own offer, it wasn't going to succeed.
Steinbrenner said Sunday night that the Yankees' offer of Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and another prospect was not going to change.
"We're not going to be used here," Steinbrenner said. "We feel we have made a very fair offer - the offer the Twins asked us to make. It's not going to change. If we don't get (Santana), we don't get him."
Steinbrenner went on to say that he wants a resolution to this today.
"(GM) Brian (Cashman) has conveyed to them that the owner is getting very irritated," he said.
In their preliminary discussions with both the Red Sox and the Yankees, the Twins said they had to get two of those teams' three top young players. In the Yankees' case, that meant Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera, and from the Red Sox, that meant Ellsbury, Lester and Buchholz.
The Yankees on Friday agreed to center their deal around Hughes and Cabrera and assumed that had met the Twins' demands. But while the Yanks were waiting yesterday for a response from Minnesota GM Bill Smith, the Red Sox - who had previously offered Lester, center fielder Coco Crisp, and another pitching prospect - pulled their Ellsbury-for-Lester switcheroo.
"They're just going to see now who the Twins like better, Ellsbury or Hughes," a source familiar with the Red Sox said.
From their standpoint, the Yankees have remained steadfast in their refusal to add Kennedy to the package. It's been their view that Hughes and Cabrera are a big enough sacrifice when on top of that they would have to negotiate a six-year contract with Santana worth over $100 million.
If the Twins are unable to agree on a trade with either team, they also could try to deal Santana later this winter, or perhaps even start the season with him and try to move him at the deadline in July.
The only potential catch to those scenarios is Santana himself. With a full no-trade clause, Santana can ultimately decide where he's going - or if he's going anywhere at all.
According to a source, Santana is urging the Twins to get a deal done, telling Minnesota that he won't approve a deal to any team other than the Yankees or Red Sox.
In addition, Santana has no plans to allow the Twins to shop him at the trade deadline, since he would be just two months away from free agency at that point. That would leave the Twins with nothing more than a compensatory draft pick to show for the loss of Santana.
Once a deal is struck, the team that lands Santana likely would receive a 72-hour window to negotiate the new contract with the lefty.
If the Yankees are unable to land Santana, they could pursue Oakland's Dan Haren, though A's GM Billy Beane is said to be asking more for Haren than the Twins are for Santana.
Milwaukee also is shopping starting pitching, according to a source, possibly putting righthander Ben Sheets on the block this week. The source said the Brewers would prefer to deal Chris Capuano, who is eligible for arbitration, though Sheets is slated to make $11 million in the final year of a four-year, $38.5 million deal.
Yea, I'm just going off what the Twins and RedSox GMs said during ST.
bottomline here is the Twins' GM tried to get cute w/the Yankees by playing them against the Red Sox when he damn well knew that package w/Hughes was the best one he had on the table & it ended up costing him a much lesser package from the Mets... the Mets win out from the Twins GM's complete miscalculation that the Yankees would fold to these blackmail type tactics... if the Yankees didn't fold for Johan they're certainly not gonna fold for CC Sabathia.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 2:46 PM]
Posted by TMS:
bottomline here is the Twins' GM tried to get cute w/the Yankees by playing them against the Red Sox when he damn well knew that package w/Hughes was the best one he had on the table & it ended up costing him a much lesser package from the Mets... the Mets win out from the Twins GM's complete miscalculation that the Yankees would fold to these blackmail type tactics... if the Yankees didn't fold for Johan they're certainly not gonna fold for CC Sabathia.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 2:46 PM]
How do you know the package the Twins got was worse than what the Yankees were offering? What are you basing that on?
i'm basing that on my opinion... what are you basing your assertion that the Yankees made a huge mistake in passing on Johan on?
Posted by TMS:
i'm basing that on my opinion... what are you basing your assertion that the Yankees made a huge mistake in passing on Johan on?
You're basing your opinion on your opinion? OK. You were stating it as if it were factual, not merely your opinion, that the Twins passed on the better package.
My opinion? I'm basing it on the fact that most prospects, even high ones, don't turn into ace pitchers at the level of Johan and I it's a safe (but not certain) gamble that neither Hughes nor Kennedy will.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-16-2008 6:25 PM]
Posted by TMS:
bottomline here is the Twins' GM tried to get cute w/the Yankees by playing them against the Red Sox when he damn well knew that package w/Hughes was the best one he had on the table & it ended up costing him a much lesser package from the Mets... the Mets win out from the Twins GM's complete miscalculation that the Yankees would fold to these blackmail type tactics... if the Yankees didn't fold for Johan they're certainly not gonna fold for CC Sabathia.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 2:46 PM]
The jury is still out on whether or not Hughes will be a better value than Lester or Ellsbury, or Guerra for that matter. How could the Mets offer have been less in the Twins mind when the RedSox were offering a comparable offer to the rumored Yanks offer, yet the Twins still chose the Mets over the Redsox? Baseball america isn't the end all of prospect value.
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Screw that. This is a transition year. Why trade away good prospects for a rental player that we can end up signing as a free agent in 6 months.
because we likely can't
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-16-2008 08:47 AM]
Why, is the Yankees money suddenly no good?
With ace pitchers, yes. He's not gonna turn down $100 mil from the team he is traded to. He'll likely sign an extension with that team and we will have missed out again on an ace pitcher.
Come on now, Hughes is your ace.
And the Mets are the big favorites to win the NL Pennant after trading for Santana.
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
bottomline here is the Twins' GM tried to get cute w/the Yankees by playing them against the Red Sox when he damn well knew that package w/Hughes was the best one he had on the table & it ended up costing him a much lesser package from the Mets... the Mets win out from the Twins GM's complete miscalculation that the Yankees would fold to these blackmail type tactics... if the Yankees didn't fold for Johan they're certainly not gonna fold for CC Sabathia.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 2:46 PM]
The jury is still out on whether or not Hughes will be a better value than Lester or Ellsbury, or Guerra for that matter. How could the Mets offer have been less in the Twins mind when the RedSox were offering a comparable offer to the rumored Yanks offer, yet the Twins still chose the Mets over the Redsox? Baseball america isn't the end all of prospect value.
the Red Sox pulled the offer off the table once they learned the Yankees were not going to cave into the Twins' demands for Hughes & Kennedy... Ellsbury is clearly the better prospect of them all if you judge from current results... pitchers tend to take a longer time to develop... Hughes is 21 years old for crying out loud... if the Twins had exercised such impatience to develop their own prospects as some of you apparently do they never would've had Johan become the great pitcher he's turned out to be to begin with... he was 23 before he had his breakout season in MIN.
in the end the Twins GM played himself & he ended up taking the worst package of prospects in the deal because both the Yankees & Red Sox refused to be played... keep telling urself the Mets' offer was comparable to what the Yankees were offering but there are plenty of baseball ranking sites & sports journalists that will disagree with you.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 3:40 PM]
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Screw that. This is a transition year. Why trade away good prospects for a rental player that we can end up signing as a free agent in 6 months.
because we likely can't
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-16-2008 08:47 AM]
Why, is the Yankees money suddenly no good?
With ace pitchers, yes. He's not gonna turn down $100 mil from the team he is traded to. He'll likely sign an extension with that team and we will have missed out again on an ace pitcher.
Come on now, Hughes is your ace.
And the Mets are the big favorites to win the NL Pennant after trading for Santana.
come on, stop shortchanging the Mets... they already won the WS this year after making that trade... MLB's just holding onto the trophy & keeping it safe, but it's theirs... ya gotta believe.
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Screw that. This is a transition year. Why trade away good prospects for a rental player that we can end up signing as a free agent in 6 months.
because we likely can't
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-16-2008 08:47 AM]
Why, is the Yankees money suddenly no good?
With ace pitchers, yes. He's not gonna turn down $100 mil from the team he is traded to. He'll likely sign an extension with that team and we will have missed out again on an ace pitcher.
Johan just got a 6 yr $138 mil deal from the Mets w/a team option for a 7th at an annual salary of $23 mil... CC's not gonna sign til the Yankees are at least factored in IMO if he wants any chance of approaching those types of #'s... i don't see the Cubs signing him to anywhere close to that w/all their other big money players on contract.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 12:13 PM]
Johan got that deal with the team he was traded to. That's a very common policy now and is why the team CC is traded to becomes the significant favorite to lock him up.
If that were true, Texeira would have signed a long term deal with the Braves.
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
i'm basing that on my opinion... what are you basing your assertion that the Yankees made a huge mistake in passing on Johan on?
You're basing your opinion on your opinion? OK. You were stating it as if it were factual, not merely your opinion, that the Twins passed on the better package.
My opinion? I'm basing it on the fact that most prospects, even high ones, don't turn into ace pitchers at the level of Johan and I it's a safe (but not certain) gamble that neither Hughes nor Kennedy will.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-16-2008 6:25 PM]
so basically ur basing it on an opinion... whether we made a mistake or not has yet to be proven... wait a couple years before u make that determination.
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
1 of the main reasons why he was traded to the Mets was because they were the only team willing to pay that hefty a price tag to re-sign him to begin with... the Yankees were not willing to sign him to 6 guaranteed years, they were offering 5 years as rumors had it... plus they didn't wanna have to give up their top 2 pitching prospects when other teams were offering much less.
That's really not true. Several teams had interest in acquiring Johan but Johan wanted NY or Bos. Yanks never made an official offer, RedSox and Mets did.
That's not true. The Yankees had the best offer on the table with Hughes, Melky and I believe Marquez. After the trade, the opinion of most impartial observers was that Smith overplayed their hand and missed out on the Yankees better offer.
btw, getting back to the Giambi debate, if we excercise his $5m buyout & allocate the funds it would take to sign him to an extension on a guy like Adam Dunn who unlike Jason has been a consistent 40HR guy over the past 4 seasons & is in his physical prime at the age of 29 to be our DH next season, you could move Matsui back into LF, platoon Damon & Melky in CF & have Abreu extended for 1 more season in RF until Tabata or Jax are ready to start in a couple years.
or you could let Abreu walk & use that money to sign Mark Teixiera to play 1B & start Melky in RF
or you could sign someone like Mark Kotsay who the Yankees have been interested in for quite some time now & start him in CF & use Melky in a trade package.
then there's also Rocco Baldelli who'll be a FA that's an intriguing option in CF... even though he's injury prone he's still only 27 & has a ton of talent.
there's also Pat Burrell who can be signed to play 1 of the corner OF spots in place of either Damon or Abreu & you could keep Matsui in the DH role w/Mark T at 1B, or use Melky in a trade & move Damon to CF.
the point here is that the Yankees have plenty of options open to them this offseason... we're getting a ton of money coming off the payroll & there's a pretty nice class of FA's that will be available that includes some pretty big names... if we let 38yo Giambi walk it won't be the end of the world.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 4:01 PM]
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:
Screw that. This is a transition year. Why trade away good prospects for a rental player that we can end up signing as a free agent in 6 months.
because we likely can't
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-16-2008 08:47 AM]
Why, is the Yankees money suddenly no good?
With ace pitchers, yes. He's not gonna turn down $100 mil from the team he is traded to. He'll likely sign an extension with that team and we will have missed out again on an ace pitcher.
Johan just got a 6 yr $138 mil deal from the Mets w/a team option for a 7th at an annual salary of $23 mil... CC's not gonna sign til the Yankees are at least factored in IMO if he wants any chance of approaching those types of #'s... i don't see the Cubs signing him to anywhere close to that w/all their other big money players on contract.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 12:13 PM]
Johan got that deal with the team he was traded to. That's a very common policy now and is why the team CC is traded to becomes the significant favorite to lock him up.
If that were true, Texeira would have signed a long term deal with the Braves.
We're talking about ace pitchers. (Keep up with the conversation, man!
) Teams offer their aces deals they can't refuse. Exceptions are not impossible but are extremely rare.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-16-2008 7:33 PM]
Posted by islesfan:
And the Mets are the big favorites to win the NL Pennant after trading for Santana.
Indeed they were.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
bottomline here is the Twins' GM tried to get cute w/the Yankees by playing them against the Red Sox when he damn well knew that package w/Hughes was the best one he had on the table & it ended up costing him a much lesser package from the Mets... the Mets win out from the Twins GM's complete miscalculation that the Yankees would fold to these blackmail type tactics... if the Yankees didn't fold for Johan they're certainly not gonna fold for CC Sabathia.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 2:46 PM]
The jury is still out on whether or not Hughes will be a better value than Lester or Ellsbury, or Guerra for that matter. How could the Mets offer have been less in the Twins mind when the RedSox were offering a comparable offer to the rumored Yanks offer, yet the Twins still chose the Mets over the Redsox? Baseball america isn't the end all of prospect value.
the Red Sox pulled the offer off the table once they learned the Yankees were not going to cave into the Twins' demands for Hughes & Kennedy... Ellsbury is clearly the better prospect of them all if you judge from current results... pitchers tend to take a longer time to develop... Hughes is 21 years old for crying out loud... if the Twins had exercised such impatience to develop their own prospects as some of you apparently do they never would've had Johan become the great pitcher he's turned out to be to begin with... he was 23 before he had his breakout season in MIN.
in the end the Twins GM played himself & he ended up taking the worst package of prospects in the deal because both the Yankees & Red Sox refused to be played... keep telling urself the Mets' offer was comparable to what the Yankees were offering but there are plenty of baseball ranking sites & sports journalists that will disagree with you.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 3:40 PM]
Red Sox NEVER pulled thier offer. From Theo's mouth. Theo said the Twins just preferred the Mets package more. Keep telling yourself the yank were serious about Johan, and the red sox didn't pull their offer.
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
bottomline here is the Twins' GM tried to get cute w/the Yankees by playing them against the Red Sox when he damn well knew that package w/Hughes was the best one he had on the table & it ended up costing him a much lesser package from the Mets... the Mets win out from the Twins GM's complete miscalculation that the Yankees would fold to these blackmail type tactics... if the Yankees didn't fold for Johan they're certainly not gonna fold for CC Sabathia.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 2:46 PM]
The jury is still out on whether or not Hughes will be a better value than Lester or Ellsbury, or Guerra for that matter. How could the Mets offer have been less in the Twins mind when the RedSox were offering a comparable offer to the rumored Yanks offer, yet the Twins still chose the Mets over the Redsox? Baseball america isn't the end all of prospect value.
the Red Sox pulled the offer off the table once they learned the Yankees were not going to cave into the Twins' demands for Hughes & Kennedy... Ellsbury is clearly the better prospect of them all if you judge from current results... pitchers tend to take a longer time to develop... Hughes is 21 years old for crying out loud... if the Twins had exercised such impatience to develop their own prospects as some of you apparently do they never would've had Johan become the great pitcher he's turned out to be to begin with... he was 23 before he had his breakout season in MIN.
in the end the Twins GM played himself & he ended up taking the worst package of prospects in the deal because both the Yankees & Red Sox refused to be played... keep telling urself the Mets' offer was comparable to what the Yankees were offering but there are plenty of baseball ranking sites & sports journalists that will disagree with you.
[Edited by - TMS on 06-16-2008 3:40 PM]
Red Sox NEVER pulled thier offer. From Theo's mouth. Theo said the Twins just preferred the Mets package more. Keep telling yourself the yank were serious about Johan, and the red sox didn't pull their offer.
do you have a linked source to that quote? every article i've read has the Red Sox pulling their offer... i'll provide the links for you if you like.
Thats nice, but I'll take the words from Theo's mouth from when the Mets played the Red Sox in ST and Theo was interviewed and asked about the situation.
