Off Topic · Yankees Talk thread (page 89)

i've had enough of arod

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by TMS:

good points brought up about Oswalt... i didn't even bother to check those #'s... that BA vs. is alarming.

let's say we could trade Cano for a pitcher... who would u expect back in return that's somewhat realistic an option? i think if we stock up w/a couple power bats, we can make due w/Betemit at 2B next season if there's a trade of Cano that will net us a top of the line starter.

[Edited by - TMS on 08-28-2008 5:06 PM]

I'm totally willing to trade Cano, as you know haha. I like Cano, I really do, I'm just not certain he's ever going to commit to the game of baseball. I think he's working on sheer talent right now and that's too bad. It seemed like Bowa was the only one to be able to get him to really work to become a better player. I thought last year he turned the corner, but this year it's back the same old same old with him, but this time even worse.

I think realistically we can hope for someone like Matt Cain from the Giants. I think the Giants would move on that pretty quickly with the emergence of Jonathon Sanchez and obviously Tim Linceum, Cano would be a nice bat for a team that desperately needs it. I like Cain, although his WHIP worries me in the AL, he has been kind of resilient though in this career so far, he's always walked alot of guys but never seems to give up that many runs. I think a change of scenery might do him some good.

I'd also ask the Dodgers about Chad Billingsley. He's alot like Matt Cain in the respect he walks alot of guys, but somehow never gives up runs. I think thDodgers would be interested too since Kent is aging and Torre/Bowa would push for Cano.

I think both of these trades would have legs and both guys are under 25 years old.

wow, if u could get Billingsley for Cano i'd do that deal in a heartbeat... he's an up & coming ace IMO... at 24 & along w/Joba, u'd have 2 young stud arms in the rotation for the next decade... the Dodgers do make a lot of sense at that... do u think they'd be willing to trade Billingsley tho?

i'm really not that crazy about Matt Cain tho... a couple years ago a few of u guys were telling me u'd rather have him than Lincecum... i thought u were crazy then & i still don't see the big fascination w/Cain to be honest... he's always struck me as a middle of the rotation innings eating type pitcher since he came up... not an ace calibre guy IMV.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by nyk4ever:

I'm totally willing to trade Cano, as you know haha. I like Cano, I really do, I'm just not certain he's ever going to commit to the game of baseball. I think he's working on sheer talent right now and that's too bad. It seemed like Bowa was the only one to be able to get him to really work to become a better player. I thought last year he turned the corner, but this year it's back the same old same old with him, but this time even worse.

I think realistically we can hope for someone like Matt Cain from the Giants. I think the Giants would move on that pretty quickly with the emergence of Jonathon Sanchez and obviously Tim Linceum, Cano would be a nice bat for a team that desperately needs it. I like Cain, although his WHIP worries me in the AL, he has been kind of resilient though in this career so far, he's always walked alot of guys but never seems to give up that many runs. I think a change of scenery might do him some good.

I'd also ask the Dodgers about Chad Billingsley. He's alot like Matt Cain in the respect he walks alot of guys, but somehow never gives up runs. I think thDodgers would be interested too since Kent is aging and Torre/Bowa would push for Cano.

I think both of these trades would have legs and both guys are under 25 years old.

wow, if u could get Billingsley for Cano i'd do that deal in a heartbeat... he's an up & coming ace IMO... at 24 & along w/Joba, u'd have 2 young stud arms in the rotation for the next decade... the Dodgers do make a lot of sense at that... do u think they'd be willing to trade Billingsley tho?

i'm really not that crazy about Matt Cain tho... a couple years ago a few of u guys were telling me u'd rather have him than Lincecum... i thought u were crazy then & i still don't see the big fascination w/Cain to be honest... he's always struck me as a middle of the rotation innings eating type pitcher since he came up... not an ace calibre guy IMV.

The Dodgers have a ton of pitching in the high minor leagues, so I think if they were getting a guy like Cano who can play 2nd for them for the next 10 years, they would trade a guy like Billingley.

Cano for Billingsley
Matsui, Hughes & Kennedy for Holliday
sign Mark T & CC

1 - Damon DH
2 - Jeter SS
3 - Holliday RF
4 - ARod 3B
5 - Texieria 1B
6 - Nady LF
7 - Posada C
8 - Betemit 2B
9 - Melky or Gardner CF

& this rotation:

Sabathia L
Wang R
Joba R
Billingsley R
Moose R

wow... that's 4 aces who are still young & viable arms for the next several years... this is how u can build another dynasty.

TMS, while on paper that all sounds great, I'm not sure it's really possible.

The new Yankee regime has not shown that they are willing to shell out the big bucks for FA's, as well as Cashman's desire to build from within. To say that the Yanks are just going to go out and spend 200-240million on 2 guys in the same offseason might be asking a bit to much at this point.

Posted by BigSm00th:

i've had enough of arod

he's a pansy that highlights his hair. he's mentally fragile. he can not produce under pressure and definitely not when the fans are not on his side. last year he hit two big homers in april that carried throughout the season. the fans were behind him and he produced. but ny fans don't hold your hand so he's really not built for this city.

with that said, he was going through a divorce this year which shouldn't be dismissed. and he had a total scrub in giambi batting behind him. he's still a top flight player and good or not, he's under contract for 9 years.

you keep him but you have to bring in a guy that can take the pressure off. the only guy out there like that is manny.

Posted by nyk4ever:

TMS, while on paper that all sounds great, I'm not sure it's really possible.

The new Yankee regime has not shown that they are willing to shell out the big bucks for FA's, as well as Cashman's desire to build from within. To say that the Yanks are just going to go out and spend 200-240million on 2 guys in the same offseason might be asking a bit to much at this point.

judging from Hank's comments of late it sounds to me like he's about to open up the books to go all out in the offseason.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by nyk4ever:

TMS, while on paper that all sounds great, I'm not sure it's really possible.

The new Yankee regime has not shown that they are willing to shell out the big bucks for FA's, as well as Cashman's desire to build from within. To say that the Yanks are just going to go out and spend 200-240million on 2 guys in the same offseason might be asking a bit to much at this point.

judging from Hank's comments of late it sounds to me like he's about to open up the books to go all out in the offseason.

with the prices they will be charging next year, he has to put a good product on the field. i'm very leery of signing cc b/c of all the innings he's pitched the past few years, b/c the brewers are pitching him till his arm falls off, that he has a gut and a half, and will want 6 years minimum.

other than CC what better options are there in free agency? Ben Sheets isn't on CC's level & he's a righty besides... i think CC is the guy we're gonna get.

i think the yankees will offer CC a lot of dough. it makes too much sense, way more than teixiera. CC, joba, chien-ming is a very good top 3. CC has been absolutely dominant in the NL, in august he's pitched 39 innings, 6 runs and 40 ks. not bad.

The only issue with CC is his weight and how his body will hold up. Giving him a long-term contract is more of a risk than Johan would have been but I'd do it anyway.

Posted by Bonn1997:

The only issue with CC is his weight and how his body will hold up. Giving him a long-term contract is more of a risk than Johan would have been but I'd do it anyway.

not exactly since we'd only be giving up draft picks & money instead of prospects & money in this case... his bodyweight is a legit concern but in his case i think he's just a naturally big dude w/his 6'7" frame... i don't think he'll be another Bartolo Colon for example, whose bodyweight really caught up to his much smaller 5'11" frame & effected his velocity & delivery... CC was dominant in the AL before he ever got to the weaker hitting NL, so there's no concern of mine that he couldn't make the transition either... i don't think there's a better free agent available & i don't see any way the Yankees let him slip to a competitor.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

The only issue with CC is his weight and how his body will hold up. Giving him a long-term contract is more of a risk than Johan would have been but I'd do it anyway.

not exactly since we'd only be giving up draft picks & money instead of prospects & money in this case... his bodyweight is a legit concern but in his case i think he's just a naturally big dude w/his 6'7" frame... i don't think he'll be another Bartolo Colon for example, whose bodyweight really caught up to his much smaller 5'11" frame & effected his velocity & delivery... CC was dominant in the AL before he ever got to the weaker hitting NL, so there's no concern of mine that he couldn't make the transition either... i don't think there's a better free agent available & i don't see any way the Yankees let him slip to a competitor.

Just some food for thought..
I've read that CC wants to remain in the NL and pitch for either the Dodgers or the Giants.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Bonn1997:

The only issue with CC is his weight and how his body will hold up. Giving him a long-term contract is more of a risk than Johan would have been but I'd do it anyway.

not exactly since we'd only be giving up draft picks & money instead of prospects & money in this case... his bodyweight is a legit concern but in his case i think he's just a naturally big dude w/his 6'7" frame... i don't think he'll be another Bartolo Colon for example, whose bodyweight really caught up to his much smaller 5'11" frame & effected his velocity & delivery... CC was dominant in the AL before he ever got to the weaker hitting NL, so there's no concern of mine that he couldn't make the transition either... i don't think there's a better free agent available & i don't see any way the Yankees let him slip to a competitor.

I was discussing only the risk of the contract. If I ran this team, I'd have done everything I could to make our starting rotation next year be Johan, CC, Joba, Wang, and Mussina.

clearing salary off the payroll also needs to be a consideration before u add on a big sum of money... that's just smart business... u can afford to make some big moves this offseason because you're getting rid of approximately $40 mil or so in salary off the books next season when u combine Giambi, Abreu, Pudge & possibly Andy P.

Smart business is investing money whenever (a) you can afford it (and I certainly believe the Steinbrenners can) and (b) it's going to yield a good return. If buying Johan or anyone else was going to bring in a higher return than the Steinbrenners could get elsewhere (which includes the stock market or any other non-baseball outlet), then it would have made sense regardless of Giambi or anyone else. It's simply a good return on your investment. That said, I mentioned last off-season that I thought if you could afford only one of the two, I'd rather spend $150 mil or whatever it would have taken (I'm too lazy to look up Johan's contract) on Johan than $300 mil on A-Rod. Nothing against A-Rod I just think Johan is the wiser investment. (My exact wording was that if A-Rod is worth $300 mil, then Johan is worth about $700 mil. It was an exaggeration--we don't need to argue that figure.)

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 08-29-2008 7:54 PM]

unless u have access to the Steinbrenners' accounts & budget u have no clue exactly how much they can or can't afford to spend every year while not taking a loss... it's easy for fans like us to sit at home & say the Yankees can afford to spend whatever they want to field the best team in baseball, but reality is that even the Yankees have a limit on how much they can spend every year.

the Yankees chose to sign Arod for various reasons... 1 of which is that attendance shot up to over 4 million attendance since he came to NY & has stayed there ever since... the Yankees know he brings fans to the games... i believe u were on record plenty of times saying u wanted ARod signed too... whether Johan or ARod is the wiser investment, the Yankees & the Steinbrenners obviously disagreed w/u... unless u can gain access to the Yankees' & Mets' financial books for 2008 & prove that Johan was the better investment financially it's really a moot point that can't be argued here.

let's deal w/the reality of things... the Yankees are capable of taking on payroll this offseason because they're getting rid of a huge chunk of salary in players on the way out (Giambi, Pavano, Pudge, Abreu possibly, Pettitte possibly), the same as they were able to sign ARod, Jorge & Mo to their extensions last offseason because they were getting rid of Rocket & some of the other veterans... the same will be true next offseason when guys like Damon, Matsui, Pettitte, Moose will be coming off the books in all likelihood... if the Yanks could still make money while having a payroll in the $300 million dollar range i'd think they woulda gone there already.

[Edited by - TMS on 08-29-2008 5:41 PM]

Well we're not getting into anything new here. I've addressed everything you said before and am too tired to again.

Joba will return as a reliever. http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/y...

this team is a complete & utter disappointment... after the way this team laid down & died in that gutless showing during the big BOS series that recently passed, they pretty much showed they don't have the heart to make a run at the postseason... finishing in 4th place would serve them right... maybe it'll wake some people up on this roster, including some of the so-called leaders... the injury factor has really impacted this team this year but in my mind they still had enough talent to at least be in WC contention... i'm highly disappointed in the way this team responded to the do or die situation... last year they made an epic run w/a rotation that wasn't much better than the one we have now & got into the playoffs... i was hoping the same would happen this year til that BOS series.

the team was playing so well after the AS break i dunno why they didn't go for pitching to shore up the rotation for a run... i guess they never figured on Joba getting injured & felt like Moose & Andy were both pitching well, but u can't overlook the bottom of the rotation & pin your postseason hopes on guys like Rasner, Ponson & whoever they call up from the minors to try & plug the hole... i know a trade for CC was not in the cards considering the pricetag but u'd figure they coulda gone after a tested veteran who will eat up innings & give ur team a fighting chance to win games everytime he takes the mound & not have to give up the farm to do it... the Red Sox picked up Paul Byrd & even though he's nothing to write home about, they at least addressed a need in their rotation instead of relying on untested kids like Buchholz to come in & do the job before they're ready... the Yankees clearly placed way too much faith in their kids to come in & contribute this season

then u got guys on the Sux who are stepping up when their team needs it most like Pedroia, Ellsbury & Youkilis & it basically shows u what the difference is between winning ballclubs & losing ones... the Yanks need to get back to targetting guys w/a gamer's mentality, guys like Paul O'Neil, Tino Martinez, Jim Leyritz, Joe Girardi, etc... these types of players the Red Sux have in Lowell, Youkilis, Pedroia, Varitek, etc... even tho they might not put up the best #'s in some cases, u still need guys like that to create an overall atmosphere in the clubhouse that failure is an unacceptable outcome.

i think some of the players on this team have become complacent & no longer possess the sense of urgency to perform that they once may have had... i don't think it's a coincidence either that we haven't won a WS championship since Paul O'Neill & Scott Brosius retired & we let Tino walk via free agency, & haven't made it back to the WS since Don Zimmer resigned as our bench coach in '03.

i sincerely hope some of these issues will be addressed in free agency this offseason... i think Hank's made it pretty clear he plans on breaking the bank to get CC Sabathia in pinstripes & most likely will go all out to bring Mark Texeiria to NY as well w/Giambi & his $20 million dollar salary likely on his way out... if both those things happen, i'm very confident going into next season w/a rotation of CC, Wang, Joba, Moose & either Pettitte or 1 of the kids, but since Joba will likely not see a full allotment of innings next year they better also have another starter as a contingency plan to fill up some innings & starts so we won't have to rely on guys like Rasner anymore... someone like a Jon Garland, Randy Wolf, Joe Blanton, etc. would be a good addition for the back end of the rotation while we give Hughes some time to fine hone his game & continue to build up his arm strength IMO.

just to add to my last post:

i wouldn't mind bringing Mark Kotsay over here as a CFer stopgap... he's the gritty type of player i want this team to start targetting again & he's still got pretty good range in CF... u could platoon his veteran bat w/either Melky or Brett Gardner for a year while Austin Jackson is given another year to mature... Baldelli's an intriguing option as he is a FA this offseason & the Rays have a glut of young talent in their OF, but the thing is he's so injury prone... i'd be very wary of giving him any longterm big money deals.

in the event we can't nab Mark T, then i'd like to target Casey Blake & convert him to 1B.

add Kotsay & Blake to this roster & bring over CC Sabathia & another veteran arm like Garland, & u got urself some nice pieces to add to the overall balance of this roster, & all are guys who are gamers & will fit in nicely in the lockerroom.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-07-2008 12:06 PM]