NardDogNation wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Landry Fields never had a good season
Neither has Shumpert. What's your point?
there are some guys here who really dislike certain players on the roster. So they "decide" to follow and fall blindly in love with some guy on the roster who isnt one of those guys. We saw it early with Quincy. Now its Shumpert.
Shump is having a great start to the season shooting the ball. Everything else is pretty much status quo. To me the bottom line is this:
Is Shumpert part of the future?
Well lets play out the scenarios shall we?
If he sustains this level of shooting (I say this is impossible) or close to it what will his cost be? Say he levels off at 48% shooting and 40% from 3. He puts up 14ppg, 4asst, 5rebs and plays excellent defense and doesnt get hurt. Coming off a career year at 25 years old he will certainly shoot for $6-$7mm a year to start at the very minimum. Maybe 5 years $38mm? something in the Ariza territory?
So if we are clearing every penny of cap space so we add some high caliber impact talent do we want to use a chunk of that space on Shump? Does that seem like a good move?
Or....
He falls back to earth, ends up shooting in the low 40s (he was a career 39% shooter coming into this year) and probably gets hurt at some point, misses 5-6 weeks and takes another 4 to get back into "game shape" what do we do then? Extend him the QO and bring him back for $4mm?
Part of the reason the Knicks have such a bare cubbard is they NEVER SELL HIGH.
I have never seen a better time to pump and dump Shump. How long before he falls back to earth?
yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:I don't think that this is him turning over a new leaf at all. I'd move him ASAP before the bottom falls out. Wouldn't want to re-sign him to big dollars based on just one good season and have him turn into Landry Fields.
Exactly. I'd say the same thing even if he averages 40 PPG. Giving him mega bucks is a bad gamble
what is mega bucks? I don't think he gets a Klay Thompson type contract. Also, it depends on the pkg. He has a defensive rep and it had been reported that a team or two was willing to give up a 1st. So if he continues this level of play what is his worth on the trade market?
Considering he didn't look like he belonged in the NBA until this year and that could easily happen again next, I'd say no more than $3 mil per. That's unrealistic though and means trading him is the only solution.
fishmike wrote:NardDogNation wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Landry Fields never had a good season
Neither has Shumpert. What's your point?
there are some guys here who really dislike certain players on the roster. So they "decide" to follow and fall blindly in love with some guy on the roster who isnt one of those guys. We saw it early with Quincy. Now its Shumpert. Shump is having a great start to the season shooting the ball. Everything else is pretty much status quo. To me the bottom line is this:
Is Shumpert part of the future?
Well lets play out the scenarios shall we?
If he sustains this level of shooting (I say this is impossible) or close to it what will his cost be? Say he levels off at 48% shooting and 40% from 3. He puts up 14ppg, 4asst, 5rebs and plays excellent defense and doesnt get hurt. Coming off a career year at 25 years old he will certainly shoot for $6-$7mm a year to start at the very minimum. Maybe 5 years $38mm? something in the Ariza territory?
So if we are clearing every penny of cap space so we add some high caliber impact talent do we want to use a chunk of that space on Shump? Does that seem like a good move?
Or....
He falls back to earth, ends up shooting in the low 40s (he was a career 39% shooter coming into this year) and probably gets hurt at some point, misses 5-6 weeks and takes another 4 to get back into "game shape" what do we do then? Extend him the QO and bring him back for $4mm?
Part of the reason the Knicks have such a bare cubbard is they NEVER SELL HIGH.
I have never seen a better time to pump and dump Shump. How long before he falls back to earth?
It's a gamble no matter what you do. We knew last year even when he struggled that if he was traded to the right situation (OKC was a strong possibility) than he could really excel. He seems like a guy who plays to the system and energy of the team. So it's possible this is finally the right system and team for him to emerge. It's also possible it's just a hot start. A gamble either way.
fishmike wrote:NardDogNation wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Landry Fields never had a good season
Neither has Shumpert. What's your point?
there are some guys here who really dislike certain players on the roster. So they "decide" to follow and fall blindly in love with some guy on the roster who isnt one of those guys. We saw it early with Quincy. Now its Shumpert. Shump is having a great start to the season shooting the ball. Everything else is pretty much status quo. To me the bottom line is this:
Is Shumpert part of the future?
Well lets play out the scenarios shall we?
If he sustains this level of shooting (I say this is impossible) or close to it what will his cost be? Say he levels off at 48% shooting and 40% from 3. He puts up 14ppg, 4asst, 5rebs and plays excellent defense and doesnt get hurt. Coming off a career year at 25 years old he will certainly shoot for $6-$7mm a year to start at the very minimum. Maybe 5 years $38mm? something in the Ariza territory?
So if we are clearing every penny of cap space so we add some high caliber impact talent do we want to use a chunk of that space on Shump? Does that seem like a good move?
Or....
He falls back to earth, ends up shooting in the low 40s (he was a career 39% shooter coming into this year) and probably gets hurt at some point, misses 5-6 weeks and takes another 4 to get back into "game shape" what do we do then? Extend him the QO and bring him back for $4mm?
Part of the reason the Knicks have such a bare cubbard is they NEVER SELL HIGH.
I have never seen a better time to pump and dump Shump. How long before he falls back to earth?
Shumpert is such an arrogant asshole that I could see him asking for $10 million per, give or take. Remember that comparable players like Avery Bradley and Alec Burks (both of whom I'd prefer to Shumpert) set the market at $8-$10 million a year. And with better than half the league expected to have cap space next offseason, he'll have plenty of suitors to drive up/maintain that price. I want no part of the bidding process because like you indicated, Shumpert is a ticking timebomb as far as injuries are concerned.
I don't have anything against Iman; I'm happy to see that he is having a mini-coming out party. At the same time, he hasn't shown enough,long enough to justify a long-term commitment. He's a cherry-on-top player aka a guy you add to a team that already has its foundation. If you confuse him as being anything but, his contracts turns into a bad contract like how Courtney Lee was with the Celtics (now look at him ball out with the Grizzlies!) or Ariza was during his first stint with the Rockets (then look at how valued he became with the Wizards). We need to find our Mike Conley and Marc Gasol/ John Wall Bradley Beal before we start making it rain on role players.
Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:I don't think that this is him turning over a new leaf at all. I'd move him ASAP before the bottom falls out. Wouldn't want to re-sign him to big dollars based on just one good season and have him turn into Landry Fields.
Exactly. I'd say the same thing even if he averages 40 PPG. Giving him mega bucks is a bad gamble
what is mega bucks? I don't think he gets a Klay Thompson type contract. Also, it depends on the pkg. He has a defensive rep and it had been reported that a team or two was willing to give up a 1st. So if he continues this level of play what is his worth on the trade market?
Considering he didn't look like he belonged in the NBA until this year and that could easily happen again next, I'd say no more than $3 mil per. That's unrealistic though and means trading him is the only solution.
I concur. He's basically Thabo Seflosha without the limited big-game flurries. He deserves what Thabo is getting from the Hawks.
I must admit, he has been impressive. He is attacking the basket, converting his shots, playing with a lot of emotions, and playing decent defense. He and Hardaway are making hard cuts on offense, but Shump is going over the screens and moving his feet and hands on defense.
Knicks1969 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:It's the reason why there is such a complete disregard for lottery picks by the Knicks and their fans. They expect lebron like success from day one.It doesn't work that way. You have to groom your skilled young players. Best part if you get to do it while they are on their rookie contracts so if they pan out GREAT if not they didn't hurt your cap space.
Thank you.
That's the magic formula for the Knicks. Send them out after 4 years to spread their wings elsewhere. We're a farm team for the rest of the NBA.
I think at this point you say our core is Shumpert Melo and THJ. We need THJ to show more consistency and it might be the time to keep him at 30 and let him play through bad periods. We also need to keep Melo's knee intact.
Splat wrote:Knicks1969 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:It's the reason why there is such a complete disregard for lottery picks by the Knicks and their fans. They expect lebron like success from day one.It doesn't work that way. You have to groom your skilled young players. Best part if you get to do it while they are on their rookie contracts so if they pan out GREAT if not they didn't hurt your cap space.
Thank you.
That's the magic formula for the Knicks. Send them out after 4 years to spread their wings elsewhere. We're a farm team for the rest of the NBA.
What picks have we had flourished elsewhere i.e. got incredibly better?
Splat wrote:Knicks1969 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:It's the reason why there is such a complete disregard for lottery picks by the Knicks and their fans. They expect lebron like success from day one.It doesn't work that way. You have to groom your skilled young players. Best part if you get to do it while they are on their rookie contracts so if they pan out GREAT if not they didn't hurt your cap space.
Thank you.
That's the magic formula for the Knicks. Send them out after 4 years to spread their wings elsewhere. We're a farm team for the rest of the NBA.
I want 2 if not 3 core pieces
Coming into this franchise growing at the same time
I also don't want them to be redundant pieces
What I hate is that we've always tried to pair our
First round to lotto picks with archaic underrated Superstars
This will never work, rebuilding is fine and I for one
Most certainly have the stomach to endure one
But please do it the right way, gut the team or don't rebuild at all
Stop with the half arse retooling of barbage
Ariza is a pretty nice player
F500ONE wrote:Splat wrote:Knicks1969 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:It's the reason why there is such a complete disregard for lottery picks by the Knicks and their fans. They expect lebron like success from day one.It doesn't work that way. You have to groom your skilled young players. Best part if you get to do it while they are on their rookie contracts so if they pan out GREAT if not they didn't hurt your cap space.
Thank you.
That's the magic formula for the Knicks. Send them out after 4 years to spread their wings elsewhere. We're a farm team for the rest of the NBA.
I want 2 if not 3 core pieces
Coming into this franchise growing at the same time
I also don't want them to be redundant pieces
What I hate is that we've always tried to pair our
First round to lotto picks with archaic underrated Superstars
This will never work, rebuilding is fine and I for one
Most certainly have the stomach to endure one
But please do it the right way, gut the team or don't rebuild at all
Stop with the half arse retooling of barbage
My condolences. We both would support that, but we both know that won't happen. This is Frankenstein's monster we're talking about.
Knicks1969 wrote:Ariza is a pretty nice player
That's one in 20 years. Aside from Jordan Hill, we got no one else to add to that list. Gallo's about the same player he was as Knick, if not worse; same as Chandler, Toney Douglas, Landry Fields, Jerome Jordan, Josh Harrellson, Channing Frye, David Lee, Nate Robinson etc. And with exception to David Lee, none of those guys are starters for their current team. So trade Shumpert!
Here is a question to all of you: judging the current roster, who would be the two (young) players you would build around?
Knicks1969 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Knicks1969 wrote:Ariza is a pretty nice player
That's one in 20 years. Aside from Jordan Hill, we got no one else to add to that list. Gallo's about the same player he was as Knick, if not worse; same as Chandler, Toney Douglas, Landry Fields, Jerome Jordan, Josh Harrellson, etc. And none of those guys are starters on their current team.
David Lee
I know. I added him to my original post as you was prepping this response. He's no better than he was as a Knick, however. In fact, I'd say he's worse off now because of the injuries and slower lateral quickness.
Knicks1969 wrote:Here is a question to all of you: judging the current roster, who would be the two (young) players you would build around?
We really don't have any, we have pieces
That you add to what you're building around
What we're doing is placing cookie cutter suburbs
In the land of dinosaurs, can't coexist no way, no how
All the guys drafted by Isiah have done well playing for other teams.
Knicks1969 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Knicks1969 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Knicks1969 wrote:Ariza is a pretty nice player
That's one in 20 years. Aside from Jordan Hill, we got no one else to add to that list. Gallo's about the same player he was as Knick, if not worse; same as Chandler, Toney Douglas, Landry Fields, Jerome Jordan, Josh Harrellson, etc. And none of those guys are starters on their current team.
David Lee
I know. I added him to my original post as you was prepping this response. He's no better than he was as a Knick, however. In fact, I'd say he's worse off now because of the injuries and slower lateral quickness.
C Frye
He was also included in my edit, along with Nate Robinson. And try as you may, he's also no better than he was as a rookie for us. He's still, more or less the same player i.e. lights out shooter, mediocre to outright useless at everything else. The only difference now is that he takes more 3's which pad his efficiency numbers.
