Knicks · Shumpert has been very impressive (page 3)

Knicks1969 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:Ariza is a pretty nice player

That's one in 20 years. Aside from Jordan Hill, we got no one else to add to that list. Gallo's about the same player he was as Knick, if not worse; same as Chandler, Toney Douglas, Landry Fields, Jerome Jordan, Josh Harrellson, etc. And none of those guys are starters on their current team.

David Lee

I know. I added him to my original post as you was prepping this response. He's no better than he was as a Knick, however. In fact, I'd say he's worse off now because of the injuries and slower lateral quickness.

C Frye

He was also included in my edit, along with Nate Robinson. And try as you may, he's also no better than he was as a rookie for us. He's still, more or less the same player i.e. lights out shooter, mediocre to outright useless at everything else. The only difference now is that he takes more 3's which pad his efficiency numbers.

Knicks1969 wrote:All the guys drafted by Isiah have done well playing for other teams.

Yeah, that Renaldo Balkman is lighting up the league right now. And who could forget about Mardy "I got punched in the face by Carmelo Anthony" Collins?

And reading is fundamental. I never said that Isiah's picks weren't good players. I did say that they are no better with their new teams than they were with us. So it is disingenuous to say that his picks or Walsh's are "flourishing" with their new teams, when all they've been is par for the course. And if Shumpert continues that tradition, we need to cash out.

NardDogNation wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:All the guys drafted by Isiah have done well playing for other teams.

Yeah, that Renaldo Balkman is lighting up the league right now. And who could forget about Mardy "I got punched in the face by Carmelo Anthony" Collins?

And reading is fundamental. I never said that Isiah's picks weren't good players. I did say that they are no better with their new teams than they were with us. So it is disingenuous to say that his picks or Walsh's are "flourishing" with their new teams, when all they've been is par for the course. And if Shumpert continues that tradition, we need to cash out.

Trevor Ariza, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Nate Robinson (technically drafted by the Phoenix Suns but acquired by the Knicks on a draft-day deal). All solid rotation players in the NBA.

babyKnicks wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:All the guys drafted by Isiah have done well playing for other teams.

Yeah, that Renaldo Balkman is lighting up the league right now. And who could forget about Mardy "I got punched in the face by Carmelo Anthony" Collins?

And reading is fundamental. I never said that Isiah's picks weren't good players. I did say that they are no better with their new teams than they were with us. So it is disingenuous to say that his picks or Walsh's are "flourishing" with their new teams, when all they've been is par for the course. And if Shumpert continues that tradition, we need to cash out.

Trevor Ariza, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Nate Robinson (technically drafted by the Phoenix Suns but acquired by the Knicks on a draft-day deal). All solid rotation players in the NBA.

Again, reading is fundamental. Re-read my post and find where I said anything to the contrary.

It's the smarter decision to trade Shump. We could get a good asset for him targeting someone on a rookie deal or a draft pick in the teens. While using the cap space to replace his production. While keeping him we would be using cap space while not adding any assets.

What assets a late 1st round pick so we can pray we draft another shumpert? Or 2nd round picks so we can pray for another Landry fields or Cleanthony early?

gunsnewing wrote:What assets a late 1st round pick so we can pray we draft another shumpert? Or 2nd round picks so we can pray for another Landry fields or Cleanthony early?

If for nothing else Guns it's to get an asset who's

A Cheaper younger better version of Shumpert first 4yrs

And maybe something else, since you adore him so much

The same principles apply when analyzing Shump as we did Melo

They don't change just because you like a player

Or at least they shouldn't in this case

Some think trade, trade now or soon, while the iron is hot. OK, I understand the rationale, more or less.

What I don't understand is this. If Shump is here the whole season and he does 15 PPG at a high FG% with 4 Reb, 5 Assts and 2 Steals while providing defense, how could anyone say it is a fluke or just a contract year?

I know the answers already, so I'm not really fishing for explanations. And I'm not advocating anything right now. I'm willing to wait and see. But I think the notion that it would be an anomaly if he sustains this the whole season to be the weakest of assertions so far.

Splat wrote:Some think trade, trade now or soon, while the iron is hot. OK, I understand the rationale, more or less.

What I don't understand is this. If Shump is here the whole season and he does 15 PPG at a high FG% with 4 Reb, 5 Assts and 2 Steals while providing defense, how could anyone say it is a fluke or just a contract year?

I know the answers already, so I'm not really fishing for explanations. And I'm not advocating anything right now. I'm willing to wait and see. But I think the notion that it would be an anomaly if he sustains this the whole season to be the weakest of assertions so far.

I don't think anyone denies he can reach those numbers

I think what you'd see is an inefficient player

Getting those same numbers with a much larger contract down the road

Also keep in mind defenses are probably playing Shump

Slightly differently this year[as in don't respect his game different]

Because he was so wretched last year, in another month I see teams adjusting

And reality setting in, he'll probably finish the season

Shooting 44%fg and 37%fg(3pt) for the season, no thanks for me

Shumpert is performing because he is playing for a contract. Got it

gunsnewing wrote:Shumpert is performing because he is playing for a contract. Got it

You can't rule this totally out of the question

At the same time Shump is no different from any other athlete

Most of them have ulterior motives

Even with that said we have some of the same issues

With Shumpert as we do-did Melo, you have to calculate the costs

In regards to our future and do they-will they align

What would be ideal if Shump was in THJR's shoes

In that we had another yr of review before making decision

We most certainly need it with him

gunsnewing wrote:What assets a late 1st round pick so we can pray we draft another shumpert? Or 2nd round picks so we can pray for another Landry fields or Cleanthony early?

Every year, there is a guy with unquestionable talent that falls to the late first round. And every year, it's a guy I'd rather have than Shumpert. I know he was drafted in 2011 but the following is to demonstrate the phletora of talent in the late first round: In 2013 it was Gorgui Dieng, Mason Plumlee, THJr and Rudy Gobert. In 2012 it was Miles Plumlee, Tony Wroten and Jared Sullinger. In 2011 it was Nikola Mirotic, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, Chandler Parsons and Jimmy Butler. In 2009 it was Jeff Teague, Darren Collision, Taj Gibson and Danny Green. In 2008, it was Ryan Anderson, Serge Ibaka, Darrell Arthur, Nicolas Batum, Omer Asik, Nikola Pekovic, DeAndre Jordan and Goran Dragic (who we passed up to select Patrick Ewing Jr). We could find the next one of these guys in the late first round and I much rather take the risk that the pick turns into one of them than pay Shumpert +$8 million to be a role player, which is what he is destined to be.

Splat wrote:Some think trade, trade now or soon, while the iron is hot. OK, I understand the rationale, more or less.

What I don't understand is this. If Shump is here the whole season and he does 15 PPG at a high FG% with 4 Reb, 5 Assts and 2 Steals while providing defense, how could anyone say it is a fluke or just a contract year?

I know the answers already, so I'm not really fishing for explanations. And I'm not advocating anything right now. I'm willing to wait and see. But I think the notion that it would be an anomaly if he sustains this the whole season to be the weakest of assertions so far.

Why would it be an anomaly? He's played 3 seasons and hasn't sustained this pace the entire time. Why would this season be any different? And more importantly, do you see Shumpert being anything more than a role player? If not, it should be obvious why we shouldn't look to offer him a long term deal.

Splat wrote:Some think trade, trade now or soon, while the iron is hot. OK, I understand the rationale, more or less.

What I don't understand is this. If Shump is here the whole season and he does 15 PPG at a high FG% with 4 Reb, 5 Assts and 2 Steals while providing defense, how could anyone say it is a fluke or just a contract year?

I know the answers already, so I'm not really fishing for explanations. And I'm not advocating anything right now. I'm willing to wait and see. But I think the notion that it would be an anomaly if he sustains this the whole season to be the weakest of assertions so far.

He is off to a great start but it is early. Ronnie Brewer shot 50 % from the field in his first 12 games as a knick and 44 % from three. Not saying Shump is going to crash and burn like Brewer but he does have a three year body of work that doesn't indicate this is typical Shump. Hope he keeps it up.

NardDogNation wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:What assets a late 1st round pick so we can pray we draft another shumpert? Or 2nd round picks so we can pray for another Landry fields or Cleanthony early?

Every year, there is a guy with unquestionable talent that falls to the late first round. And every year, it's a guy I'd rather have than Shumpert. I know he was drafted in 2011 but the following is to demonstrate the phletora of talent in the late first round: In 2013 it was Gorgui Dieng, Mason Plumlee, THJr and Rudy Gobert. In 2012 it was Miles Plumlee, Tony Wroten and Jared Sullinger. In 2011 it was Nikola Mirotic, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, Chandler Parsons and Jimmy Butler. In 2009 it was Jeff Teague, Darren Collision, Taj Gibson and Danny Green. In 2008, it was Ryan Anderson, Serge Ibaka, Darrell Arthur, Nicolas Batum, Omer Asik, Nikola Pekovic, DeAndre Jordan and Goran Dragic (who we passed up to select Patrick Ewing Jr). We could find the next one of these guys in the late first round and I much rather take the risk that the pick turns into one of them than pay Shumpert +$8 million to be a role player, which is what he is destined to be.

Best case scenario would be to grab a player like the ones mentioned with the draft pick acquired from trading Shump. As well as signing a guy for +8 mil with the cap space saved from resigning Shump. Turning 1 Shump into 2 Shumps.

Shump has always been just a tweak away from doing what he's doing now. More consistency on his jumper and finishing better was all he really needed. Aside from a system where he had clear direction like he has now. It's probably a legit breakout season for him and likely sustainable at some level near this. He's shown flashes of this kind of ability. If he does this for an entire season I think he gets a good contract here in NY.

F500ONE wrote:

Splat wrote:Some think trade, trade now or soon, while the iron is hot. OK, I understand the rationale, more or less.

What I don't understand is this. If Shump is here the whole season and he does 15 PPG at a high FG% with 4 Reb, 5 Assts and 2 Steals while providing defense, how could anyone say it is a fluke or just a contract year?

I know the answers already, so I'm not really fishing for explanations. And I'm not advocating anything right now. I'm willing to wait and see. But I think the notion that it would be an anomaly if he sustains this the whole season to be the weakest of assertions so far.

I don't think anyone denies he can reach those numbers

I think what you'd see is an inefficient player

Getting those same numbers with a much larger contract down the road

Also keep in mind defenses are probably playing Shump

Slightly differently this year[as in don't respect his game different]

Because he was so wretched last year, in another month I see teams adjusting

And reality setting in, he'll probably finish the season

Shooting 44%fg and 37%fg(3pt) for the season, no thanks for me

he was drafted 18th-- in spite of injury and getting shat upon by woodson he is playing like an 18th-12th pick right now.

in terms of money he is is worth around 6-8 million, even with your projected numbers.

yes?

newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:What assets a late 1st round pick so we can pray we draft another shumpert? Or 2nd round picks so we can pray for another Landry fields or Cleanthony early?

Every year, there is a guy with unquestionable talent that falls to the late first round. And every year, it's a guy I'd rather have than Shumpert. I know he was drafted in 2011 but the following is to demonstrate the phletora of talent in the late first round: In 2013 it was Gorgui Dieng, Mason Plumlee, THJr and Rudy Gobert. In 2012 it was Miles Plumlee, Tony Wroten and Jared Sullinger. In 2011 it was Nikola Mirotic, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, Chandler Parsons and Jimmy Butler. In 2009 it was Jeff Teague, Darren Collision, Taj Gibson and Danny Green. In 2008, it was Ryan Anderson, Serge Ibaka, Darrell Arthur, Nicolas Batum, Omer Asik, Nikola Pekovic, DeAndre Jordan and Goran Dragic (who we passed up to select Patrick Ewing Jr). We could find the next one of these guys in the late first round and I much rather take the risk that the pick turns into one of them than pay Shumpert +$8 million to be a role player, which is what he is destined to be.

Best case scenario would be to grab a player like the ones mentioned with the draft pick acquired from trading Shump. As well as signing a guy for +8 mil with the cap space saved from resigning Shump. Turning 1 Shump into 2 Shumps.

Exactly! It still baffles me that guys are so anti-draft, especially when alternative methods have not yielded anything of value. Hell, the only player that is worth a damn on our roster (Melo) was acquired by dealing a plethora of recently drafted Knicks, so I think its ridiculous for people to try and downplay the drafts value. No, we might not find a superstar but at the very least we'd be in better position to acquire one via trade by collecting draft picks. But if the stars align, maybe that same draft pick becomes a superstar and negates the need for a trade. As much as I'm adamant about getting a top 3 draft pick, stars/superstars were found in the late lottery as well like Paul George who went 10th, Andre Drummond who went 9th, Klay Thompson 11th, Kawhi Leonard 14th, etc. There really isn't a downside to investing in the draft.

dk7th wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Splat wrote:Some think trade, trade now or soon, while the iron is hot. OK, I understand the rationale, more or less.

What I don't understand is this. If Shump is here the whole season and he does 15 PPG at a high FG% with 4 Reb, 5 Assts and 2 Steals while providing defense, how could anyone say it is a fluke or just a contract year?

I know the answers already, so I'm not really fishing for explanations. And I'm not advocating anything right now. I'm willing to wait and see. But I think the notion that it would be an anomaly if he sustains this the whole season to be the weakest of assertions so far.

I don't think anyone denies he can reach those numbers

I think what you'd see is an inefficient player

Getting those same numbers with a much larger contract down the road

Also keep in mind defenses are probably playing Shump

Slightly differently this year[as in don't respect his game different]

Because he was so wretched last year, in another month I see teams adjusting

And reality setting in, he'll probably finish the season

Shooting 44%fg and 37%fg(3pt) for the season, no thanks for me

he was drafted 18th-- in spite of injury and getting shat upon by woodson he is playing like an 18th-12th pick right now.

in terms of money he is is worth around 6-8 million, even with your projected numbers.

yes?

I don't give a rats dingleberries where he was drafted

He's not worth the hassle and no I disagree Woodson messed him up

Weak sauce excuse there

newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:What assets a late 1st round pick so we can pray we draft another shumpert? Or 2nd round picks so we can pray for another Landry fields or Cleanthony early?

Every year, there is a guy with unquestionable talent that falls to the late first round. And every year, it's a guy I'd rather have than Shumpert. I know he was drafted in 2011 but the following is to demonstrate the phletora of talent in the late first round: In 2013 it was Gorgui Dieng, Mason Plumlee, THJr and Rudy Gobert. In 2012 it was Miles Plumlee, Tony Wroten and Jared Sullinger. In 2011 it was Nikola Mirotic, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, Chandler Parsons and Jimmy Butler. In 2009 it was Jeff Teague, Darren Collision, Taj Gibson and Danny Green. In 2008, it was Ryan Anderson, Serge Ibaka, Darrell Arthur, Nicolas Batum, Omer Asik, Nikola Pekovic, DeAndre Jordan and Goran Dragic (who we passed up to select Patrick Ewing Jr). We could find the next one of these guys in the late first round and I much rather take the risk that the pick turns into one of them than pay Shumpert +$8 million to be a role player, which is what he is destined to be.

Best case scenario would be to grab a player like the ones mentioned with the draft pick acquired from trading Shump. As well as signing a guy for +8 mil with the cap space saved from resigning Shump. Turning 1 Shump into 2 Shumps.

Great analogy

Knicks1969 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:What assets a late 1st round pick so we can pray we draft another shumpert? Or 2nd round picks so we can pray for another Landry fields or Cleanthony early?

Every year, there is a guy with unquestionable talent that falls to the late first round. And every year, it's a guy I'd rather have than Shumpert. I know he was drafted in 2011 but the following is to demonstrate the phletora of talent in the late first round: In 2013 it was Gorgui Dieng, Mason Plumlee, THJr and Rudy Gobert. In 2012 it was Miles Plumlee, Tony Wroten and Jared Sullinger. In 2011 it was Nikola Mirotic, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, Chandler Parsons and Jimmy Butler. In 2009 it was Jeff Teague, Darren Collision, Taj Gibson and Danny Green. In 2008, it was Ryan Anderson, Serge Ibaka, Darrell Arthur, Nicolas Batum, Omer Asik, Nikola Pekovic, DeAndre Jordan and Goran Dragic (who we passed up to select Patrick Ewing Jr). We could find the next one of these guys in the late first round and I much rather take the risk that the pick turns into one of them than pay Shumpert +$8 million to be a role player, which is what he is destined to be.

Best case scenario would be to grab a player like the ones mentioned with the draft pick acquired from trading Shump. As well as signing a guy for +8 mil with the cap space saved from resigning Shump. Turning 1 Shump into 2 Shumps.

Great analogy

Yep or get a

Cheap Young Chump instead of keeping an Older Expensive Chump