Knicks · I like Hornacek okay... but this is two different NBA jobs where he has had players completely quit on him. (page 4)
holfresh wrote:TPercy wrote:I'd be really annoyed if we got rid of Horny. With the right players, New York Basketball would be awesome to watch on a consistent basis.NY basketball used to revolved around defense...
Yes..and?
meloshouldgo wrote:To date the most bizarre low class slimeball thing I remember from the Knciks is guards escorting Don Chaney out after a game. And since then every time I saw Isiah Effing Thomas I wanted to throw up.
That was classless Isiah. Chaney was a class act and individual.
Lee's instagram post makes me wonder if the coaching is just not very good. Lee came from Boston, Memphis, and Charlotte - he's used to some good coaching.
My faith is wavering in Hornacek. I don't really want another coaching change, but cot damn, Fisher was 21-21 at this time last year, with a far inferior roster. I think Fisher would have this team at least 24-18, if not better.
The substitutions patterns from Hornacek have made no sense. Even the feel for leaving a guy who is hot in the game. Baker makes two threes in a row in the 1st quarter yesterday and IMMEDIATELY comes out? WTF. In a 1pt loss, you have to wonder if maybe Baker might've hit another 3 in the 1st quarter while he was feeling it? Other substitutions and failure to build a coherent rotation are on Jeff.
Defense? Ugh. We know it all too well. If they're getting TOASTED repeatedly by three point shooters... maybe change the scheme? Don't go under screens? Don't pack the paint so much? Stop playing two bigs at once in a league where most teams play 1 at most?
Passing? Plays? It seems like the Knicks make passes directly to the hands of opposing team all the time. Is that poor execution? Poor coaching? Do they not practice these plays? Is the playbook too complicated?
Anyway. My faith is wavering in Hornacek. Like I said, just the idea of a coaching change makes me feel exhausted... must be moreso for the team... but I just really don't think this is working right now. DRose and CLee and Jennings and others are starting to openly question what's going on here.
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Late in the third quarter Monday, Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek yelled at Derrick Rose after Atlanta’s Dennis Schroder blew by him for a layup. Rose, at the next play stoppage, could be seen screaming in Hornacek’s direction as the coach stood by the scorer’s table.Carmelo Anthony went over to Rose to calm him down. At the end of the quarter, Knicks assistant coach Corey Gaines soothed Rose while the other coaches huddled.
At another point during the game, after Hornacek yanked Kyle O’Quinn, the Knicks’ backup center glared at the coach for a couple of seconds too long.
Afterward, Hornacek called out Rose in his postgame press conference for not closing out hard enough on Schroder’s game-winning 3-point shot with 16.8 seconds left. One week removed from going AWOL and missing the New Orleans game, Rose said he agreed, but thought Schroder would drive the ball and didn’t want to get beaten.
It was another somber locker room as the Knicks lost at the buzzer, 108-107, after missing three point-blank attempts for the win. In the past 11 days, the Knicks have lost three games at the buzzer and took the court for New Orleans worried their starting point guard, who was missing, was in danger.
On a day Hornacek made the plunge by starting undrafted rookie guard Ron Baker and sitting $50 million man Courtney Lee, a wave of evidence suggested the Knicks’ first-year coach was losing the locker room.
In one corner, Brandon Jennings seethed when asked about the lineup maneuver, saying, “Every day is something new. You got to be ready [because] you never know when you’re going to play. When you come in, you really don’t know what’s going to happen. There’s kind of no consistency.”
Lee said the right things but spoiled it by posting a photo of Jim Carrey, who has a small resemblance to Hornacek, and Jeff Daniels of “Dumb and Dumber.” Lee deleted it, posting later he’s frustrated by the losing — not a coach’s decision.
Hornacek is searching for answers as the Knicks have dropped 11-of-13 games to fall a season-worst six games under .500 (18-24). Hornacek can’t be the scapegoat as Derek Fisher was last season. Fisher was fired in February, and team president Phil Jackson can’t justify bringing in a fifth head coach during his reign.
When the Knicks play in Boston on Wednesday, Hornacek may pull another bold move and finally bench center Joakim Noah. Before the Hawks game, Hornacek said if Kristaps Porzingis played, he would move to center and Carmelo Anthony to power forward, probably his better position now. Noah is one of the team’s leaders, and his reaction to the demotion would be telling.
“We’ve got to look at everything,” Hornacek said Monday. “In the long run, we’ve got to look at hey, when KP comes back, will it change everything altogether and what it will do? Sometimes it’s a chance you have to take, but we continue to look over that. We just need to mix it up maybe a little more.”
He was referring to the post championship Pistons, who churned coach after coach, after they had that strong run by picking up Rasheed Wallace and winning a ring.
You could resurrect John Wooden, and would it make a difference on a roster that's poorly constructed with aging guys who aren't team players?
You keep killing off the coach, suddenly your open coaching job looks like a death sentence ( Kobe Bryant got so many coaches axed at the end of his career that the Lakers job looked like trash to coaches with real options)
I don't blame Hornacek. Play the game the right way and you'll stay in the game. You just can't play however the hell you want without regard to your duties and responsibilities.
Same issue, over and over. The league needs a hard cap, non guaranteed contracts as the standard and the ability to cut guys at will like the NFL does it. You think Lee would post something stupid if he knew he could get cut and get zero money moving forward on his contract?
The NBA should be the No#1 sport in the world after soccer. It should generate more revenue than the NFL and MLB. It does not. It does not in part because it's just hard to buy into a team when it's clear the lunatics run the asylum. Be a jerk, still get paid. Be a good team player, still get paid. Try, get paid. Don't try and get fat and be an alcoholic or drug abuser and don't care, still get paid.
Hornacek is not the problem. Entitlement is a major part of the problem.
crzymdups wrote:I missed most of the game on Monday so I didn't see the third quarter confrontation with Rose that Berman wrote about. I did watch most of the third quarter again last night after I read his article and I couldn't find the interaction that Berman described. I might have missed it. Do you recall the incident with Rose/Hornacek?Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/NYPost_Berman/status/821573879890059264
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Late in the third quarter Monday, Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek yelled at Derrick Rose after Atlanta’s Dennis Schroder blew by him for a layup. Rose, at the next play stoppage, could be seen screaming in Hornacek’s direction as the coach stood by the scorer’s table.Carmelo Anthony went over to Rose to calm him down. At the end of the quarter, Knicks assistant coach Corey Gaines soothed Rose while the other coaches huddled.
At another point during the game, after Hornacek yanked Kyle O’Quinn, the Knicks’ backup center glared at the coach for a couple of seconds too long.
Afterward, Hornacek called out Rose in his postgame press conference for not closing out hard enough on Schroder’s game-winning 3-point shot with 16.8 seconds left. One week removed from going AWOL and missing the New Orleans game, Rose said he agreed, but thought Schroder would drive the ball and didn’t want to get beaten.
It was another somber locker room as the Knicks lost at the buzzer, 108-107, after missing three point-blank attempts for the win. In the past 11 days, the Knicks have lost three games at the buzzer and took the court for New Orleans worried their starting point guard, who was missing, was in danger.
On a day Hornacek made the plunge by starting undrafted rookie guard Ron Baker and sitting $50 million man Courtney Lee, a wave of evidence suggested the Knicks’ first-year coach was losing the locker room.
In one corner, Brandon Jennings seethed when asked about the lineup maneuver, saying, “Every day is something new. You got to be ready [because] you never know when you’re going to play. When you come in, you really don’t know what’s going to happen. There’s kind of no consistency.”
Lee said the right things but spoiled it by posting a photo of Jim Carrey, who has a small resemblance to Hornacek, and Jeff Daniels of “Dumb and Dumber.” Lee deleted it, posting later he’s frustrated by the losing — not a coach’s decision.
Hornacek is searching for answers as the Knicks have dropped 11-of-13 games to fall a season-worst six games under .500 (18-24). Hornacek can’t be the scapegoat as Derek Fisher was last season. Fisher was fired in February, and team president Phil Jackson can’t justify bringing in a fifth head coach during his reign.
When the Knicks play in Boston on Wednesday, Hornacek may pull another bold move and finally bench center Joakim Noah. Before the Hawks game, Hornacek said if Kristaps Porzingis played, he would move to center and Carmelo Anthony to power forward, probably his better position now. Noah is one of the team’s leaders, and his reaction to the demotion would be telling.
“We’ve got to look at everything,” Hornacek said Monday. “In the long run, we’ve got to look at hey, when KP comes back, will it change everything altogether and what it will do? Sometimes it’s a chance you have to take, but we continue to look over that. We just need to mix it up maybe a little more.”
We have been through so many talent-challenged rosters since the days of Ewing, Spree and Houston. We have seen some play above themselves and be respectable. We have seen many crumble and fall. We have even seen a lot of controversy, that is a Knicks trademark.
But I can't remember the last time we had a group of so many whining players, acting so unprofessional with their coach, venting their frustrations to the media, selfish frustrations, while when playing on the court, they play selfish and without effort. These are supposed to be professional, millions-earner players, but they behave like high school kids that believe they deserve everything and are entitled to no responsibility.
Rose goes AWOL, then dares to challenge Hornaceck to demand more on defense, only to play the games with such lack of effort on D that makes you want to punch him anytime he dares to talk to the media. Jennings dares to talk after his terrible play for more than a month or two? Melo vents after a loss when his lack of effort trying to play D was obvious to anyone?
Hornaceck isn't perfect. He wasn't paid to be, either. But this huge mess isn't on him. Grown men behaving like this is on another level of embarrassing, and this franchise sure knows about that. This team is talented, but sucks in personality and character.
Last year we had a similar melt down under Fisher after a solid 22-22 start. We thought maybe a new voice was needed. It didn't help much as the team lost more under Rambis.
This year we were 4th at one point, 14-10 on the season. Then a meltdown. This time no coaching change.
There are two common themes in the meltdowns. One, in both instances the losing and meltdown happens when KP is injured or playing poorly due to hitting a wall or being injured. It shows you KP's importance. When KP is beasting we are hard to beat, a top 4 team. As soon as KP's level slips, and as soon as KP isn't able to stay healthy or physically in his peak, we slip. Second is Melo is the team's best player. He is a good player, but no longer a player that can be the best player on a playoff team.
What we need is simply KP to step up. Until KP is able to play like a superstar or consistent force, we are screwed and stuck. Melo will always be Melo. A good player, a great scoring threat and a suspect defender. Too chill of a leader but a nice guy and teammate. I like Melo. However this is on KP. We need KP to develop fast. We have no other options. Because when I look at the two season's to me the tailspins coincided with KP no longer playing at a great level. Last year he hit the rookie wall. This year the achilles. Melo is not like a James Harden, Lebron, Curry, Durant, Westbrook level player that he can carry the team by himself. Neiher is Rose that kind of player anymore either.
I don't think many coaches would do better than this with what has happened. However if we are serious about keeping Rose and Melo the whole season and next year to bring both back (it is not known how the Knicks feel on Rose longterm) then Horny has to go. For those two guys you need a defensive minded coach who allows players to play isolation and simple drive and kick or 1 guy isolating inside with 4 shooters outside type of simple offense. Get defenders who feel comfortable shooting off players.
It's always easier to fire 1 guy than change the team by moving 5 or more players. It's up to Phil and management to see what's best. My instincts tell me Hornachek is a good coach if he has KP in his prime, unselfish hard working guards and good athletic defenders. I want to see him get that. I also think Horny runs fantastic time out plays, which is very important in the playoffs if you ever get there. He knows how to get Melo the ball in isolations witout it being predictable much better than Fisher ever did.
TripleThreat wrote:Charles Barkley said it best. You can keep getting rid of the coaches, but eventually, there's no one left to blame but the players.He was referring to the post championship Pistons, who churned coach after coach, after they had that strong run by picking up Rasheed Wallace and winning a ring.
You could resurrect John Wooden, and would it make a difference on a roster that's poorly constructed with aging guys who aren't team players?
You keep killing off the coach, suddenly your open coaching job looks like a death sentence ( Kobe Bryant got so many coaches axed at the end of his career that the Lakers job looked like trash to coaches with real options)
I don't blame Hornacek. Play the game the right way and you'll stay in the game. You just can't play however the hell you want without regard to your duties and responsibilities.
Same issue, over and over. The league needs a hard cap, non guaranteed contracts as the standard and the ability to cut guys at will like the NFL does it. You think Lee would post something stupid if he knew he could get cut and get zero money moving forward on his contract?
The NBA should be the No#1 sport in the world after soccer. It should generate more revenue than the NFL and MLB. It does not. It does not in part because it's just hard to buy into a team when it's clear the lunatics run the asylum. Be a jerk, still get paid. Be a good team player, still get paid. Try, get paid. Don't try and get fat and be an alcoholic or drug abuser and don't care, still get paid.
Hornacek is not the problem. Entitlement is a major part of the problem.
I agree - I've said elsewhere that I think the way Jackson/Mills has handled the Rose situation (no suspension), the way Jackson let Melo twist after Rosen's article was published (rather than make a statement that he supports Melo - making it clear he doesn't), the way Rambis was brought in to be the defensive coach 6 games into the season (undermining the coach's authority by putting a guy who openly campaigned for the head coach job last year on his bench and basically saying "he's better at defense than you")... the management has been terrible and I think it has contributed to a very bad environment for Hornacek.
I don't think you can fire him, but I also think it was a mistake to fire Fisher last year. I think Fisher would be a better coach for this squad, but that ship has sailed (or sunk).
I agree you can't fire Hornacek and I agree it's not his fault. But I think it is also true that the team doesn't respect him and it's starting to show.
Terrible situation.
Rose cannot chirp back if has asked Jeff to push him. You know what is wrong with the Knicks vets they think they are better than they really are. They obviously think that they are better than the coach. They don't understand that individually they maybe better than Jeff was when he played but I can guarantee you that Jeffs team would of whooped Derrick Roses Bulls team and Melo's best Nuggets team easily.
Also I agree with nyknickzingis about KP being the difference maker for this team! A healthy KP makes the difference for this team. Also would it hurt Rose to look to set up KP more often? He's done a HORRIBLE job of building any real chemistry with KP! That's unacceptable.
***
Erik Spolestra is actually one of the very best coaches in the NBA
He did a ton with a little pre Big Three Heatles with the Heat. Riley handpicked him from the crowd and groomed him.
When things were tough, Riley STOOD BEHIND HIM. Spolestra was HIS GUY. Even big names players like LBJ and Wade were just gonna have to deal with it.
Just because it's easier doesn't mean it's the right decision. What needs to happen is Jackson and Dolan come out and say Hornacek is our guy, we stand behind him, you players need to man up and play better and fall in line.
Why is that threat hollow? Guaranteed long term contracts.
Is Gregg Popovich some super discipline guy? Or so incredible with people?
Or did he have a core of players like Duncan and Manu and Parker who put team first and ENFORCED that the coach is the freaking coach and you play hard and do your freaking job.
Melo's "job" is to be a team leader and play harder than anyone else and get everyone else to fall into line. He fails miserably. He won't do it for Hornacek, he wouldn't do it even if you got the best coach in the history of all time there.
"If you meet an @sshole in the morning, you met an @sshole, if you keep meeting @ssholes all day, YOU ARE THE @sshole" - Raylan Givens
Yes, yes, everyone else is the problem, including the coach, surely it can't be Melo and Rose...
While we live in an entitled place in time regarding the NBA and sports, other teams are able to function.
ATL floundered and then turned it around. THis happens with teams. Did they purify their "culture" and play ball better? Did threat of trades or implementation of a trade actually align priorities?
Was Milsaps,despite all the positive public comments in fact concerned more about his expiring contract and life after this season that he was told "Look, if its a problem we can move you NOW!!!" If not, then do your job, succeed and really in the end life will be even better. Some players can't handle the uncertainty.
And we know our Rose is a bit of that kind of guy and perhaps Jennings, while all in conceptually about "proving" himself in the off season might have a problem with how things are going. NBA players are like the rest of us and we would all love to have banked pensions, or retirement plans in place. Rose and Jennings are playing "well" for a while and perhaps thought getting an extension be best.
As for Melo and calling him out to be more of a Leader, its the same argument we have discusses since he was first rumored to be a knick.