Knicks · I like Hornacek okay... but this is two different NBA jobs where he has had players completely quit on him. (page 3)
nixluva wrote:Vmart wrote:This is the Knicks they pretty much quit on every coach. This is what they do best.You've gotta do better than this. MOST of this team is NEW! They don't have anything to do with the last team. If you wanna say Melo is the one factor that remains then perhaps a case can be made. The same with Phil, Rambis, Mills or Dolan. The players are for the most part totally unaffiliated with the teams of the past. I think this team was 14-10 at one point and playing reasonably well. WTH happened since that point and how does this team get better?
How many coaches can a team go through? I don't know there is no helping this damn team. There has been one player that turned this franchise around since 2000 it's Jason Kidd. Soon as he retires the whole team crumbled. The Knicks have not had a leader and they are still looking for a leader. The coach is only as good as the leader he has.
Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...
CrushAlot wrote:Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...
Yeah - things are not sounding good with Jeff and DRose. Not good at all.
TORONTO — Jeff Hornacek seemed defensive — no pun intended — about Derrick Rose revealing his conversation with the Knicks coach in which he told him to get on the players more about their defensive foibles. Hornacek indicated he didn’t see that as the issue.The irony couldn’t have been greater, with Rose only five days removed from failing to show up for a home game without notifying the Knicks.
“We try to talk to them after practice,” Hornacek said before the Knicks got blown out by the Raptors, 116-101. “What they see? It’s just talk. We’re not 36-4. There’s always things we can talk about it. It’s good to hear what they’re thinking. Nothing but after-practice talk.
“He was just talking more about calling guys out,” Hornacek added. “I don’t know if we necessarily have to do that. We work on things at practice every way. It’s the same stuff. We know everyone’s guilty of it. We go down the line with every guy. Maybe harping on them a little. Maybe it comes to a point you take guys out who continually do it over and over. Heck, I’ve had talks like that with Jerry Sloan. Everyone’s trying to get it figured out when you’re not one of the top teams in the league.”
crzymdups wrote:It is like expecting Melo to lead like Messier or Kidd. He isn't that guy. Same for Hornacek. Hornacek isn't Thibs and he shouldn't try to be. I think Jeff is a good coach. The players need to step up and play d not pass the buck to the coach and say he doesn't yell enough. Show up and play d. I like Rose but to come out with this the same week he went awol?CrushAlot wrote:Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...Yeah - things are not sounding good with Jeff and DRose. Not good at all.
TORONTO — Jeff Hornacek seemed defensive — no pun intended — about Derrick Rose revealing his conversation with the Knicks coach in which he told him to get on the players more about their defensive foibles. Hornacek indicated he didn’t see that as the issue.The irony couldn’t have been greater, with Rose only five days removed from failing to show up for a home game without notifying the Knicks.
“We try to talk to them after practice,” Hornacek said before the Knicks got blown out by the Raptors, 116-101. “What they see? It’s just talk. We’re not 36-4. There’s always things we can talk about it. It’s good to hear what they’re thinking. Nothing but after-practice talk.
“He was just talking more about calling guys out,” Hornacek added. “I don’t know if we necessarily have to do that. We work on things at practice every way. It’s the same stuff. We know everyone’s guilty of it. We go down the line with every guy. Maybe harping on them a little. Maybe it comes to a point you take guys out who continually do it over and over. Heck, I’ve had talks like that with Jerry Sloan. Everyone’s trying to get it figured out when you’re not one of the top teams in the league.”
CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:It is like expecting Melo to lead like Messier or Kidd. He isn't that guy. Same for Hornacek. Hornacek isn't Thibs and he shouldn't try to be. I think Jeff is a good coach. The players need to step up and play d not pass the buck to the coach and say he doesn't yell enough. Show up and play d. I like Rose but to come out with this the same week he went awol?CrushAlot wrote:Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...Yeah - things are not sounding good with Jeff and DRose. Not good at all.
TORONTO — Jeff Hornacek seemed defensive — no pun intended — about Derrick Rose revealing his conversation with the Knicks coach in which he told him to get on the players more about their defensive foibles. Hornacek indicated he didn’t see that as the issue.The irony couldn’t have been greater, with Rose only five days removed from failing to show up for a home game without notifying the Knicks.
“We try to talk to them after practice,” Hornacek said before the Knicks got blown out by the Raptors, 116-101. “What they see? It’s just talk. We’re not 36-4. There’s always things we can talk about it. It’s good to hear what they’re thinking. Nothing but after-practice talk.
“He was just talking more about calling guys out,” Hornacek added. “I don’t know if we necessarily have to do that. We work on things at practice every way. It’s the same stuff. We know everyone’s guilty of it. We go down the line with every guy. Maybe harping on them a little. Maybe it comes to a point you take guys out who continually do it over and over. Heck, I’ve had talks like that with Jerry Sloan. Everyone’s trying to get it figured out when you’re not one of the top teams in the league.”
The timing is absurd. I'm not standing up for DRose here...
If anything, I think Phil and Mills not punishing Rose for his insubordination has created a very bad situation. It seems like he feels he can say whatever he wants to the coach now, because there are no punishments and no oversight at MSG. It's been this way from Marbury to Melo and now Rose.
crzymdups wrote:I can't think of anything Melo should have been punished for. Can you clarify?CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:It is like expecting Melo to lead like Messier or Kidd. He isn't that guy. Same for Hornacek. Hornacek isn't Thibs and he shouldn't try to be. I think Jeff is a good coach. The players need to step up and play d not pass the buck to the coach and say he doesn't yell enough. Show up and play d. I like Rose but to come out with this the same week he went awol?CrushAlot wrote:Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...Yeah - things are not sounding good with Jeff and DRose. Not good at all.
TORONTO — Jeff Hornacek seemed defensive — no pun intended — about Derrick Rose revealing his conversation with the Knicks coach in which he told him to get on the players more about their defensive foibles. Hornacek indicated he didn’t see that as the issue.The irony couldn’t have been greater, with Rose only five days removed from failing to show up for a home game without notifying the Knicks.
“We try to talk to them after practice,” Hornacek said before the Knicks got blown out by the Raptors, 116-101. “What they see? It’s just talk. We’re not 36-4. There’s always things we can talk about it. It’s good to hear what they’re thinking. Nothing but after-practice talk.
“He was just talking more about calling guys out,” Hornacek added. “I don’t know if we necessarily have to do that. We work on things at practice every way. It’s the same stuff. We know everyone’s guilty of it. We go down the line with every guy. Maybe harping on them a little. Maybe it comes to a point you take guys out who continually do it over and over. Heck, I’ve had talks like that with Jerry Sloan. Everyone’s trying to get it figured out when you’re not one of the top teams in the league.”
The timing is absurd. I'm not standing up for DRose here...
If anything, I think Phil and Mills not punishing Rose for his insubordination has created a very bad situation. It seems like he feels he can say whatever he wants to the coach now, because there are no punishments and no oversight at MSG. It's been this way from Marbury to Melo and now Rose.
CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:I can't think of anything Melo should have been punished for. Can you clarify?CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:It is like expecting Melo to lead like Messier or Kidd. He isn't that guy. Same for Hornacek. Hornacek isn't Thibs and he shouldn't try to be. I think Jeff is a good coach. The players need to step up and play d not pass the buck to the coach and say he doesn't yell enough. Show up and play d. I like Rose but to come out with this the same week he went awol?CrushAlot wrote:Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...Yeah - things are not sounding good with Jeff and DRose. Not good at all.
TORONTO — Jeff Hornacek seemed defensive — no pun intended — about Derrick Rose revealing his conversation with the Knicks coach in which he told him to get on the players more about their defensive foibles. Hornacek indicated he didn’t see that as the issue.The irony couldn’t have been greater, with Rose only five days removed from failing to show up for a home game without notifying the Knicks.
“We try to talk to them after practice,” Hornacek said before the Knicks got blown out by the Raptors, 116-101. “What they see? It’s just talk. We’re not 36-4. There’s always things we can talk about it. It’s good to hear what they’re thinking. Nothing but after-practice talk.
“He was just talking more about calling guys out,” Hornacek added. “I don’t know if we necessarily have to do that. We work on things at practice every way. It’s the same stuff. We know everyone’s guilty of it. We go down the line with every guy. Maybe harping on them a little. Maybe it comes to a point you take guys out who continually do it over and over. Heck, I’ve had talks like that with Jerry Sloan. Everyone’s trying to get it figured out when you’re not one of the top teams in the league.”
The timing is absurd. I'm not standing up for DRose here...
If anything, I think Phil and Mills not punishing Rose for his insubordination has created a very bad situation. It seems like he feels he can say whatever he wants to the coach now, because there are no punishments and no oversight at MSG. It's been this way from Marbury to Melo and now Rose.
Melo has never acted out in a way that should be punished. But he's been enabled and coddled and given the star treatment. He didn't exactly like Lin being here, so Lin was escorted away. It's nothing terrible with Melo, but it's just a bad, toxic environment of coddling stars and not making them accountable. Melo openly critical of MDA - does anyone from the Garden step in? No, MDA is forced to just quit, because there's no leadership and no one brave enough to challenge Melo or stand up to him. I think Melo is a good dude over all and I have almost always stood up for him here. I blame Mills and Dolan for all this. It's the toxic environment they have created that is not conducive to winning, no matter who the players are or the front office or the coach. Toxic environment.
crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:I can't think of anything Melo should have been punished for. Can you clarify?CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:It is like expecting Melo to lead like Messier or Kidd. He isn't that guy. Same for Hornacek. Hornacek isn't Thibs and he shouldn't try to be. I think Jeff is a good coach. The players need to step up and play d not pass the buck to the coach and say he doesn't yell enough. Show up and play d. I like Rose but to come out with this the same week he went awol?CrushAlot wrote:Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...Yeah - things are not sounding good with Jeff and DRose. Not good at all.
TORONTO — Jeff Hornacek seemed defensive — no pun intended — about Derrick Rose revealing his conversation with the Knicks coach in which he told him to get on the players more about their defensive foibles. Hornacek indicated he didn’t see that as the issue.The irony couldn’t have been greater, with Rose only five days removed from failing to show up for a home game without notifying the Knicks.
“We try to talk to them after practice,” Hornacek said before the Knicks got blown out by the Raptors, 116-101. “What they see? It’s just talk. We’re not 36-4. There’s always things we can talk about it. It’s good to hear what they’re thinking. Nothing but after-practice talk.
“He was just talking more about calling guys out,” Hornacek added. “I don’t know if we necessarily have to do that. We work on things at practice every way. It’s the same stuff. We know everyone’s guilty of it. We go down the line with every guy. Maybe harping on them a little. Maybe it comes to a point you take guys out who continually do it over and over. Heck, I’ve had talks like that with Jerry Sloan. Everyone’s trying to get it figured out when you’re not one of the top teams in the league.”
The timing is absurd. I'm not standing up for DRose here...
If anything, I think Phil and Mills not punishing Rose for his insubordination has created a very bad situation. It seems like he feels he can say whatever he wants to the coach now, because there are no punishments and no oversight at MSG. It's been this way from Marbury to Melo and now Rose.
Melo has never acted out in a way that should be punished. But he's been enabled and coddled and given the star treatment. He didn't exactly like Lin being here, so Lin was escorted away. It's nothing terrible with Melo, but it's just a bad, toxic environment of coddling stars and not making them accountable. Melo openly critical of MDA - does anyone from the Garden step in? No, MDA is forced to just quit, because there's no leadership and no one brave enough to challenge Melo or stand up to him. I think Melo is a good dude over all and I have almost always stood up for him here. I blame Mills and Dolan for all this. It's the toxic environment they have created that is not conducive to winning, no matter who the players are or the front office or the coach. Toxic environment.
MDA gave Dolan an ultimatum to trade Melo for DWill and quit when Dolan refused..Melo's fault?..Lin escorted out with a big contract from Houston?..Come on, stop making these things up..I'm sure you could find sound reasons for a Melo trade..Do we even need a reason at this point..
holfresh wrote:arkrud wrote:nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Jmpasq wrote:Hornaceck deserves to be fired but how many damn coaches should Dolan pay. Fisher was a scumbag guy shouldnt of got a dimeNo, he doesn't.
You don't hire a guy that has a plan to play basketball, tell him to change it for your outdated plan, get him players that don't fit such outdated plan, which make such players hate the plan, then watch it all crumble before your eyes and fire that guy because of it.
This big apple is rotten in so many places, you might as well throw it to the trash.
This team had talent to play good basketball. They may not have had the type of talent Hornachek would have done best with, but they had considerable talent. Not many teams have a trio like KP, Melo and Rose. The issue I saw was that Horny wanted everyone to run and gun and also get back fast on D. A team with a trio like that, you probably need 2 quality defenders around that big 3 and you want to play a little slower where your superior isolation talent, superior size comes into play. We went into the top 12 in the league in pace and we were up there in field goal attempts. We increased our 3 point shooting output considerably. In doing so we also made ourselves more likely to be scored on and being unable to set up a halfcourt defense properly.
I don't think a great coach is one who only does the same thing with every team he has. Perhaps Horny just miscalculated what the team was able to do. He may have thought they had the legs and ability to play at this pace and defend a high number of possessions. Unfortunately they did not. I think longterm we want to play the way Horny tried to get these guys to play. However we need to trade Melo, we need to move away from isolation basketball and lack of speed. We need to get a little younger and more athletic. As much as I appreciate Melo's scoring, I just don't think he's a good fit with this type of set up.
What we are is a hybrid or a combination of the Triangle and it's elements as well as the modern day pace/space. There are teams that use this kind of set up and do well. Atlanta. San Antonio. However they also have superior athleticism and defensive talent. They don't play at this pace I think. We probably can run Horny's plans well if we get more athletic and younger. It just won't happen with a veteran team of Melo, Noah, Lee (all 30+).
The good news is I don't think Melo will want to stay a Knick beyond this season. We'll be in the draft lottery. Very fast we can change our identity to a more younger, athletic team around KP. Drafting someone good in the lottery will go a long way in that. Hopefully Melo will finally see the writing on the wall and waives his NTC.
Yeah I think you can rebuild around KP with quality young talent. If you give Horny some real thoroughbreds that can play at the pace and energy level he wants he'll be successful. We just can't rely on Melo and Noah to play that way at this stage of their careers. Just look at the drop off on back to backs!!!
Jeff is kind of like a college coach in that his personality might fit better with younger more compliant players that will run through walls for him. Guys without personal AGENDAS!!!
Players with personal agenda of winning and greatness will work wonders for every coach.
Players with personal brands and business agendas will not work for any.
Knicks never created the environment were NBA current and future greats will desire to go with all this fake MSG "Mecca" b..st.
So we get selfish money hungry outcasts without integrity and purpose in life.
We get a freak show in place of great sport.
So now we have to watch it for 20 years. May be it is time to stop?
Players with actual talent works wonders too...
Wake up, this is the new NBA where all players have brands...Curry and LeBron is a brand..Tim Duncan of the world is long gone..The quicker we understand that an adapt the quicker we can compete with teams and players who compete for titles every year...This world is constantly changing and ideas change as well..Living in the past doesnt help the future..
Having Brand and striving for winning and greatness in the team-concept are not mutually exclusive.
One helps another. More of winning and greatness are the best brand builders for NBA player.
But not the only one. Brand can be build on individual talent and stats as well. Brand Build on expectations of winning.
I am done with expectations of Melo to be a winner in NY. This train long left the station... if it ever was at the station...
arkrud wrote:holfresh wrote:arkrud wrote:nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Jmpasq wrote:Hornaceck deserves to be fired but how many damn coaches should Dolan pay. Fisher was a scumbag guy shouldnt of got a dimeNo, he doesn't.
You don't hire a guy that has a plan to play basketball, tell him to change it for your outdated plan, get him players that don't fit such outdated plan, which make such players hate the plan, then watch it all crumble before your eyes and fire that guy because of it.
This big apple is rotten in so many places, you might as well throw it to the trash.
This team had talent to play good basketball. They may not have had the type of talent Hornachek would have done best with, but they had considerable talent. Not many teams have a trio like KP, Melo and Rose. The issue I saw was that Horny wanted everyone to run and gun and also get back fast on D. A team with a trio like that, you probably need 2 quality defenders around that big 3 and you want to play a little slower where your superior isolation talent, superior size comes into play. We went into the top 12 in the league in pace and we were up there in field goal attempts. We increased our 3 point shooting output considerably. In doing so we also made ourselves more likely to be scored on and being unable to set up a halfcourt defense properly.
I don't think a great coach is one who only does the same thing with every team he has. Perhaps Horny just miscalculated what the team was able to do. He may have thought they had the legs and ability to play at this pace and defend a high number of possessions. Unfortunately they did not. I think longterm we want to play the way Horny tried to get these guys to play. However we need to trade Melo, we need to move away from isolation basketball and lack of speed. We need to get a little younger and more athletic. As much as I appreciate Melo's scoring, I just don't think he's a good fit with this type of set up.
What we are is a hybrid or a combination of the Triangle and it's elements as well as the modern day pace/space. There are teams that use this kind of set up and do well. Atlanta. San Antonio. However they also have superior athleticism and defensive talent. They don't play at this pace I think. We probably can run Horny's plans well if we get more athletic and younger. It just won't happen with a veteran team of Melo, Noah, Lee (all 30+).
The good news is I don't think Melo will want to stay a Knick beyond this season. We'll be in the draft lottery. Very fast we can change our identity to a more younger, athletic team around KP. Drafting someone good in the lottery will go a long way in that. Hopefully Melo will finally see the writing on the wall and waives his NTC.
Yeah I think you can rebuild around KP with quality young talent. If you give Horny some real thoroughbreds that can play at the pace and energy level he wants he'll be successful. We just can't rely on Melo and Noah to play that way at this stage of their careers. Just look at the drop off on back to backs!!!
Jeff is kind of like a college coach in that his personality might fit better with younger more compliant players that will run through walls for him. Guys without personal AGENDAS!!!
Players with personal agenda of winning and greatness will work wonders for every coach.
Players with personal brands and business agendas will not work for any.
Knicks never created the environment were NBA current and future greats will desire to go with all this fake MSG "Mecca" b..st.
So we get selfish money hungry outcasts without integrity and purpose in life.
We get a freak show in place of great sport.
So now we have to watch it for 20 years. May be it is time to stop?
Players with actual talent works wonders too...
Wake up, this is the new NBA where all players have brands...Curry and LeBron is a brand..Tim Duncan of the world is long gone..The quicker we understand that an adapt the quicker we can compete with teams and players who compete for titles every year...This world is constantly changing and ideas change as well..Living in the past doesnt help the future..Having Brand and striving for winning and greatness in the team-concept are not mutually exclusive.
One helps another. More of winning and greatness are the best brand builders for NBA player.
But not the only one. Brand can be build on individual talent and stats as well. Brand Build on expectations of winning.
I am done with expectations of Melo to be a winner in NY. This train long left the station... if it ever was at the station...
I never really considered individuals as "winners" in a team sport setting..Maybe you can explain this concept to me one day..People blamed Ewing for not winning..Never understood that..
holfresh wrote:This. Great post.arkrud wrote:holfresh wrote:arkrud wrote:nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Jmpasq wrote:Hornaceck deserves to be fired but how many damn coaches should Dolan pay. Fisher was a scumbag guy shouldnt of got a dimeNo, he doesn't.
You don't hire a guy that has a plan to play basketball, tell him to change it for your outdated plan, get him players that don't fit such outdated plan, which make such players hate the plan, then watch it all crumble before your eyes and fire that guy because of it.
This big apple is rotten in so many places, you might as well throw it to the trash.
This team had talent to play good basketball. They may not have had the type of talent Hornachek would have done best with, but they had considerable talent. Not many teams have a trio like KP, Melo and Rose. The issue I saw was that Horny wanted everyone to run and gun and also get back fast on D. A team with a trio like that, you probably need 2 quality defenders around that big 3 and you want to play a little slower where your superior isolation talent, superior size comes into play. We went into the top 12 in the league in pace and we were up there in field goal attempts. We increased our 3 point shooting output considerably. In doing so we also made ourselves more likely to be scored on and being unable to set up a halfcourt defense properly.
I don't think a great coach is one who only does the same thing with every team he has. Perhaps Horny just miscalculated what the team was able to do. He may have thought they had the legs and ability to play at this pace and defend a high number of possessions. Unfortunately they did not. I think longterm we want to play the way Horny tried to get these guys to play. However we need to trade Melo, we need to move away from isolation basketball and lack of speed. We need to get a little younger and more athletic. As much as I appreciate Melo's scoring, I just don't think he's a good fit with this type of set up.
What we are is a hybrid or a combination of the Triangle and it's elements as well as the modern day pace/space. There are teams that use this kind of set up and do well. Atlanta. San Antonio. However they also have superior athleticism and defensive talent. They don't play at this pace I think. We probably can run Horny's plans well if we get more athletic and younger. It just won't happen with a veteran team of Melo, Noah, Lee (all 30+).
The good news is I don't think Melo will want to stay a Knick beyond this season. We'll be in the draft lottery. Very fast we can change our identity to a more younger, athletic team around KP. Drafting someone good in the lottery will go a long way in that. Hopefully Melo will finally see the writing on the wall and waives his NTC.
Yeah I think you can rebuild around KP with quality young talent. If you give Horny some real thoroughbreds that can play at the pace and energy level he wants he'll be successful. We just can't rely on Melo and Noah to play that way at this stage of their careers. Just look at the drop off on back to backs!!!
Jeff is kind of like a college coach in that his personality might fit better with younger more compliant players that will run through walls for him. Guys without personal AGENDAS!!!
Players with personal agenda of winning and greatness will work wonders for every coach.
Players with personal brands and business agendas will not work for any.
Knicks never created the environment were NBA current and future greats will desire to go with all this fake MSG "Mecca" b..st.
So we get selfish money hungry outcasts without integrity and purpose in life.
We get a freak show in place of great sport.
So now we have to watch it for 20 years. May be it is time to stop?
Players with actual talent works wonders too...
Wake up, this is the new NBA where all players have brands...Curry and LeBron is a brand..Tim Duncan of the world is long gone..The quicker we understand that an adapt the quicker we can compete with teams and players who compete for titles every year...This world is constantly changing and ideas change as well..Living in the past doesnt help the future..Having Brand and striving for winning and greatness in the team-concept are not mutually exclusive.
One helps another. More of winning and greatness are the best brand builders for NBA player.
But not the only one. Brand can be build on individual talent and stats as well. Brand Build on expectations of winning.
I am done with expectations of Melo to be a winner in NY. This train long left the station... if it ever was at the station...I never really considered individuals as "winners" in a team sport setting..Maybe you can explain this concept to me one day..People blamed Ewing for not winning..Never understood that..
holfresh wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:I can't think of anything Melo should have been punished for. Can you clarify?CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:It is like expecting Melo to lead like Messier or Kidd. He isn't that guy. Same for Hornacek. Hornacek isn't Thibs and he shouldn't try to be. I think Jeff is a good coach. The players need to step up and play d not pass the buck to the coach and say he doesn't yell enough. Show up and play d. I like Rose but to come out with this the same week he went awol?CrushAlot wrote:Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...Yeah - things are not sounding good with Jeff and DRose. Not good at all.
TORONTO — Jeff Hornacek seemed defensive — no pun intended — about Derrick Rose revealing his conversation with the Knicks coach in which he told him to get on the players more about their defensive foibles. Hornacek indicated he didn’t see that as the issue.The irony couldn’t have been greater, with Rose only five days removed from failing to show up for a home game without notifying the Knicks.
“We try to talk to them after practice,” Hornacek said before the Knicks got blown out by the Raptors, 116-101. “What they see? It’s just talk. We’re not 36-4. There’s always things we can talk about it. It’s good to hear what they’re thinking. Nothing but after-practice talk.
“He was just talking more about calling guys out,” Hornacek added. “I don’t know if we necessarily have to do that. We work on things at practice every way. It’s the same stuff. We know everyone’s guilty of it. We go down the line with every guy. Maybe harping on them a little. Maybe it comes to a point you take guys out who continually do it over and over. Heck, I’ve had talks like that with Jerry Sloan. Everyone’s trying to get it figured out when you’re not one of the top teams in the league.”
The timing is absurd. I'm not standing up for DRose here...
If anything, I think Phil and Mills not punishing Rose for his insubordination has created a very bad situation. It seems like he feels he can say whatever he wants to the coach now, because there are no punishments and no oversight at MSG. It's been this way from Marbury to Melo and now Rose.
Melo has never acted out in a way that should be punished. But he's been enabled and coddled and given the star treatment. He didn't exactly like Lin being here, so Lin was escorted away. It's nothing terrible with Melo, but it's just a bad, toxic environment of coddling stars and not making them accountable. Melo openly critical of MDA - does anyone from the Garden step in? No, MDA is forced to just quit, because there's no leadership and no one brave enough to challenge Melo or stand up to him. I think Melo is a good dude over all and I have almost always stood up for him here. I blame Mills and Dolan for all this. It's the toxic environment they have created that is not conducive to winning, no matter who the players are or the front office or the coach. Toxic environment.
MDA gave Dolan an altimatum to trade Melo for DWill and quit when Dolan refused..Melo's fault?..Lin escorted out with a big contract from Houston?..Come on, stop making these things up..I'm sure you could find sound reasons for a Melo trade..Do we even need a reason at this point..
I honestly have never heard that Melo for DWill ultimatum story before. I definitely remember fans complaining when the Nets got Deron a day after we got Melo, but I don't remember the DWill for Melo thing at all. And if that is the case... it doesn't change anything I said about Melo/MDA. MDA was forced to quit because no one would step in and force a sit down - Melo got his way because the MSG brass was silent. Donnie walked because Dolan stepped in and overruled him on the Melo trade, too. Toxic environment. I don't think I made anything up.
crzymdups wrote:? Donnie walked because Dolan offered him a new deal that paid him a lot less then he was making when his contract expired. I am going out on a limb here but all of the olympic guys thought mda was not uptight and totally casual about everything. Melo was shocked when he resigned. The guy was non confrontational and didn't go there with Melo. I have heard the dwill stuff before but I haven't seen a source.holfresh wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:I can't think of anything Melo should have been punished for. Can you clarify?CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:It is like expecting Melo to lead like Messier or Kidd. He isn't that guy. Same for Hornacek. Hornacek isn't Thibs and he shouldn't try to be. I think Jeff is a good coach. The players need to step up and play d not pass the buck to the coach and say he doesn't yell enough. Show up and play d. I like Rose but to come out with this the same week he went awol?CrushAlot wrote:Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...Yeah - things are not sounding good with Jeff and DRose. Not good at all.
TORONTO — Jeff Hornacek seemed defensive — no pun intended — about Derrick Rose revealing his conversation with the Knicks coach in which he told him to get on the players more about their defensive foibles. Hornacek indicated he didn’t see that as the issue.The irony couldn’t have been greater, with Rose only five days removed from failing to show up for a home game without notifying the Knicks.
“We try to talk to them after practice,” Hornacek said before the Knicks got blown out by the Raptors, 116-101. “What they see? It’s just talk. We’re not 36-4. There’s always things we can talk about it. It’s good to hear what they’re thinking. Nothing but after-practice talk.
“He was just talking more about calling guys out,” Hornacek added. “I don’t know if we necessarily have to do that. We work on things at practice every way. It’s the same stuff. We know everyone’s guilty of it. We go down the line with every guy. Maybe harping on them a little. Maybe it comes to a point you take guys out who continually do it over and over. Heck, I’ve had talks like that with Jerry Sloan. Everyone’s trying to get it figured out when you’re not one of the top teams in the league.”
The timing is absurd. I'm not standing up for DRose here...
If anything, I think Phil and Mills not punishing Rose for his insubordination has created a very bad situation. It seems like he feels he can say whatever he wants to the coach now, because there are no punishments and no oversight at MSG. It's been this way from Marbury to Melo and now Rose.
Melo has never acted out in a way that should be punished. But he's been enabled and coddled and given the star treatment. He didn't exactly like Lin being here, so Lin was escorted away. It's nothing terrible with Melo, but it's just a bad, toxic environment of coddling stars and not making them accountable. Melo openly critical of MDA - does anyone from the Garden step in? No, MDA is forced to just quit, because there's no leadership and no one brave enough to challenge Melo or stand up to him. I think Melo is a good dude over all and I have almost always stood up for him here. I blame Mills and Dolan for all this. It's the toxic environment they have created that is not conducive to winning, no matter who the players are or the front office or the coach. Toxic environment.
MDA gave Dolan an altimatum to trade Melo for DWill and quit when Dolan refused..Melo's fault?..Lin escorted out with a big contract from Houston?..Come on, stop making these things up..I'm sure you could find sound reasons for a Melo trade..Do we even need a reason at this point..
I honestly have never heard that Melo for DWill ultimatum story before. I definitely remember fans complaining when the Nets got Deron a day after we got Melo, but I don't remember the DWill for Melo thing at all. And if that is the case... it doesn't change anything I said about Melo/MDA. MDA was forced to quit because no one would step in and force a sit down - Melo got his way because the MSG brass was silent. Donnie walked because Dolan stepped in and overruled him on the Melo trade, too. Toxic environment. I don't think I made anything up.
CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:? Donnie walked because Dolan offered him a new deal that paid him a lot less then he was making when his contract expired. I am going out on a limb here but all of the olympic guys thought mda was not uptight and totally casual about everything. Melo was shocked when he resigned. The guy was non confrontational and didn't go there with Melo. I have heard the dwill stuff before but I haven't seen a source.holfresh wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:I can't think of anything Melo should have been punished for. Can you clarify?CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:It is like expecting Melo to lead like Messier or Kidd. He isn't that guy. Same for Hornacek. Hornacek isn't Thibs and he shouldn't try to be. I think Jeff is a good coach. The players need to step up and play d not pass the buck to the coach and say he doesn't yell enough. Show up and play d. I like Rose but to come out with this the same week he went awol?CrushAlot wrote:Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...Yeah - things are not sounding good with Jeff and DRose. Not good at all.
TORONTO — Jeff Hornacek seemed defensive — no pun intended — about Derrick Rose revealing his conversation with the Knicks coach in which he told him to get on the players more about their defensive foibles. Hornacek indicated he didn’t see that as the issue.The irony couldn’t have been greater, with Rose only five days removed from failing to show up for a home game without notifying the Knicks.
“We try to talk to them after practice,” Hornacek said before the Knicks got blown out by the Raptors, 116-101. “What they see? It’s just talk. We’re not 36-4. There’s always things we can talk about it. It’s good to hear what they’re thinking. Nothing but after-practice talk.
“He was just talking more about calling guys out,” Hornacek added. “I don’t know if we necessarily have to do that. We work on things at practice every way. It’s the same stuff. We know everyone’s guilty of it. We go down the line with every guy. Maybe harping on them a little. Maybe it comes to a point you take guys out who continually do it over and over. Heck, I’ve had talks like that with Jerry Sloan. Everyone’s trying to get it figured out when you’re not one of the top teams in the league.”
The timing is absurd. I'm not standing up for DRose here...
If anything, I think Phil and Mills not punishing Rose for his insubordination has created a very bad situation. It seems like he feels he can say whatever he wants to the coach now, because there are no punishments and no oversight at MSG. It's been this way from Marbury to Melo and now Rose.
Melo has never acted out in a way that should be punished. But he's been enabled and coddled and given the star treatment. He didn't exactly like Lin being here, so Lin was escorted away. It's nothing terrible with Melo, but it's just a bad, toxic environment of coddling stars and not making them accountable. Melo openly critical of MDA - does anyone from the Garden step in? No, MDA is forced to just quit, because there's no leadership and no one brave enough to challenge Melo or stand up to him. I think Melo is a good dude over all and I have almost always stood up for him here. I blame Mills and Dolan for all this. It's the toxic environment they have created that is not conducive to winning, no matter who the players are or the front office or the coach. Toxic environment.
MDA gave Dolan an altimatum to trade Melo for DWill and quit when Dolan refused..Melo's fault?..Lin escorted out with a big contract from Houston?..Come on, stop making these things up..I'm sure you could find sound reasons for a Melo trade..Do we even need a reason at this point..
I honestly have never heard that Melo for DWill ultimatum story before. I definitely remember fans complaining when the Nets got Deron a day after we got Melo, but I don't remember the DWill for Melo thing at all. And if that is the case... it doesn't change anything I said about Melo/MDA. MDA was forced to quit because no one would step in and force a sit down - Melo got his way because the MSG brass was silent. Donnie walked because Dolan stepped in and overruled him on the Melo trade, too. Toxic environment. I don't think I made anything up.
I've never heard that either and I read almost every article written about the Knicks. I've heard it that Walsh felt betrayed by Isiah Thomas saying that signing Amar'e Stoudemire was his idea and also that amassing cap space was his idea, too - while he was coaching Central Florida or whatever. And Dolan wanted to bring Isiah back and that had a lot to do with it. I've heard Dolan overruling Walsh on the Melo trade had a lot to do with it.
But I'm not sure I ever heard or read anywhere it was a low ball offer from Dolan.
Did you listen to Donnie Walsh on Wojo's podcast? He talked about a culture of changing the GM every three years, he talked about the Melo trade, he talked about how he didn't think Isiah should be there and he asked Dolan if he wanted Isiah running the team or Walsh. Walsh is classy, he doesn't come right out and say it like he's Colin Cowherd or whatever - but the amount of time he spends talking about why he thought it'd be a bad idea to bring back Isiah makes it seem like it was a big factor.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/vertical-po...
Also, Wojo's podcast has plenty of info about why MDA left. Including Melo's resentment of Lin's success. And Melo's resistance to playing the 4. And the team's resentment of Melo for not wanting to play the way they did during Linsanity.
crzymdups wrote:holfresh wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:I can't think of anything Melo should have been punished for. Can you clarify?CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:It is like expecting Melo to lead like Messier or Kidd. He isn't that guy. Same for Hornacek. Hornacek isn't Thibs and he shouldn't try to be. I think Jeff is a good coach. The players need to step up and play d not pass the buck to the coach and say he doesn't yell enough. Show up and play d. I like Rose but to come out with this the same week he went awol?CrushAlot wrote:Some veterans have begun to privately express frustration over the club's defensive schemes, per sources. The defense is led by associate head coach Kurt Rambis and entered play Tuesday ranked 27th in defensive efficiency.
http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks...Yeah - things are not sounding good with Jeff and DRose. Not good at all.
TORONTO — Jeff Hornacek seemed defensive — no pun intended — about Derrick Rose revealing his conversation with the Knicks coach in which he told him to get on the players more about their defensive foibles. Hornacek indicated he didn’t see that as the issue.The irony couldn’t have been greater, with Rose only five days removed from failing to show up for a home game without notifying the Knicks.
“We try to talk to them after practice,” Hornacek said before the Knicks got blown out by the Raptors, 116-101. “What they see? It’s just talk. We’re not 36-4. There’s always things we can talk about it. It’s good to hear what they’re thinking. Nothing but after-practice talk.
“He was just talking more about calling guys out,” Hornacek added. “I don’t know if we necessarily have to do that. We work on things at practice every way. It’s the same stuff. We know everyone’s guilty of it. We go down the line with every guy. Maybe harping on them a little. Maybe it comes to a point you take guys out who continually do it over and over. Heck, I’ve had talks like that with Jerry Sloan. Everyone’s trying to get it figured out when you’re not one of the top teams in the league.”
The timing is absurd. I'm not standing up for DRose here...
If anything, I think Phil and Mills not punishing Rose for his insubordination has created a very bad situation. It seems like he feels he can say whatever he wants to the coach now, because there are no punishments and no oversight at MSG. It's been this way from Marbury to Melo and now Rose.
Melo has never acted out in a way that should be punished. But he's been enabled and coddled and given the star treatment. He didn't exactly like Lin being here, so Lin was escorted away. It's nothing terrible with Melo, but it's just a bad, toxic environment of coddling stars and not making them accountable. Melo openly critical of MDA - does anyone from the Garden step in? No, MDA is forced to just quit, because there's no leadership and no one brave enough to challenge Melo or stand up to him. I think Melo is a good dude over all and I have almost always stood up for him here. I blame Mills and Dolan for all this. It's the toxic environment they have created that is not conducive to winning, no matter who the players are or the front office or the coach. Toxic environment.
MDA gave Dolan an altimatum to trade Melo for DWill and quit when Dolan refused..Melo's fault?..Lin escorted out with a big contract from Houston?..Come on, stop making these things up..I'm sure you could find sound reasons for a Melo trade..Do we even need a reason at this point..
I honestly have never heard that Melo for DWill ultimatum story before. I definitely remember fans complaining when the Nets got Deron a day after we got Melo, but I don't remember the DWill for Melo thing at all. And if that is the case... it doesn't change anything I said about Melo/MDA. MDA was forced to quit because no one would step in and force a sit down - Melo got his way because the MSG brass was silent. Donnie walked because Dolan stepped in and overruled him on the Melo trade, too. Toxic environment. I don't think I made anything up.
But you are saying stuff like Melo was openly critical of MDA...When??..Unless you call breaking off plays called on the court openly critical..And Dolan over ruling Donnie on a trade is coddling Melo?? That's a business decision made when Melo was in Denver..Sure the environment was toxic but Melo's fault?..Force What sit down ??..Why was a sit down needed??..MDA quitting shocked just about everyone..
Also from what I saw and read..The MDA/Melo friction stemmed from MDA wanting Melo to stand in the corner and shoot threes..And shoot quickly instead of holding the ball..Melo would break off plays and go in the post..Melo had a few bad scoring games and scored 5 points one game and it was a big headline..I even remember Kobe telling him to be himself..In one game against the Bulls Lin and Fields was freezing out Melo..MDA saw this and let it go..That was the friction..But I never heard Melo going public..One of the players did go public about it tho saying that Melo is breaking off plays and there was better ball movement when he isn't playing..
Same press move happened to Harden about better ball movement when he wasn't there too..I remember speculating that Lin must have been the press leak..
So Melo being publically critical of MDA..I don't recall any of that..
TPercy wrote:I'd be really annoyed if we got rid of Horny. With the right players, New York Basketball would be awesome to watch on a consistent basis.
I agree Horny is a good coach. I also agree that I rather trade Rose and Melo and get some young athletic players that can shoot the ball from outside and run back and defend vs firing Horny.
nyknickzingis wrote:TPercy wrote:I'd be really annoyed if we got rid of Horny. With the right players, New York Basketball would be awesome to watch on a consistent basis.
I agree Horny is a good coach. I also agree that I rather trade Rose and Melo and get some young athletic players that can shoot the ball from outside and run back and defend vs firing Horny.
At this point I am leaning in that direction too. At best what are we going to accomplish in the long term with Melo or Rose on this team? Whether it is the triangle, modified triangle, or PnR, This team is still going to be marred with constant isolation basketball, because that is just who they are. At this point nothing much can be accomplished with Melo on the team and the longer we hold onto him, the more his trade value depreciates.
This upcoming draft class is one of the best we have had in a long time and, along with this upcoming free agency, offers a great chance to acquire players to build around Jeff's system and more importantly KP.
TPercy wrote:I'd be really annoyed if we got rid of Horny. With the right players, New York Basketball would be awesome to watch on a consistent basis.
NY basketball used to revolved around defense...
nyknickzingis wrote:TPercy wrote:I'd be really annoyed if we got rid of Horny. With the right players, New York Basketball would be awesome to watch on a consistent basis.
I agree Horny is a good coach. I also agree that I rather trade Rose and Melo and get some young athletic players that can shoot the ball from outside and run back and defend vs firing Horny.
I agree with this too. But look at the history of the Garden. When have they ever supported their coach? They support the stars and blame/undercut the coach.
holfresh wrote:TPercy wrote:I'd be really annoyed if we got rid of Horny. With the right players, New York Basketball would be awesome to watch on a consistent basis.NY basketball used to revolved around defense...
Yes..and?