Knicks · I like Hornacek okay... but this is two different NBA jobs where he has had players completely quit on him. (page 2)
crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:I really thought we had turned a corner with KP. He has so much potential and with some quality players around him it should've been easy to put a decent season together. It's not like the Knicks are way out of the playoff race. All they had to do is just be DECENT NOT GREAT! Just be a decent NBA team. Can't even do that!!! SMDH!I just keep reminding myself that we have our draft picks. It's the only thing I've got to hold onto at this point.
I hope to god they don't fucking trade the draft picks. I might just pack up and go home like Rose if they trade another first round pick to try to save the season...
Say what you want about Phil, but he has made it clear he wants to build with picks. He's drafted pretty well and has refused to trade draft picks in any trade discussions according to sources. Now if you can get an all-star in his prime, I would consider it. Someone 25 or younger who has prime years ahead of him that coincide with KP's. Outside of that, forget about it. I think one thing Phil and this franchise have been hurt with is that management before his tenure traded away picks. We lost lottery picks in 2014 and 2016. This year we'll have our pick. If we nail the pick, we can have a potential partner in crime with KP. I'm really hoping we can get one more draft pick out of Rose or Jennings. We've done well with picks or small pick ups. Willy. Kuz. Baker. Phil and Gaines know how to scout. It's the bigger free agent signings and veteran player aquisitions Phil has really been bad at.
Horny deserves another season next year where he gets a younger more athletic team with better ability to run and play defense. KP will be a year older. Hopefully we can find a younger point guard who fits into what we want. Rose and Jennings are not the answer. They have been failures.
Jmpasq wrote:Hornaceck deserves to be fired but how many damn coaches should Dolan pay. Fisher was a scumbag guy shouldnt of got a dime
No, he doesn't.
You don't hire a guy that has a plan to play basketball, tell him to change it for your outdated plan, get him players that don't fit such outdated plan, which make such players hate the plan, then watch it all crumble before your eyes and fire that guy because of it.
This big apple is rotten in so many places, you might as well throw it to the trash.
Knicksfan wrote:Jmpasq wrote:Hornaceck deserves to be fired but how many damn coaches should Dolan pay. Fisher was a scumbag guy shouldnt of got a dimeNo, he doesn't.
You don't hire a guy that has a plan to play basketball, tell him to change it for your outdated plan, get him players that don't fit such outdated plan, which make such players hate the plan, then watch it all crumble before your eyes and fire that guy because of it.
This big apple is rotten in so many places, you might as well throw it to the trash.
This team had talent to play good basketball. They may not have had the type of talent Hornachek would have done best with, but they had considerable talent. Not many teams have a trio like KP, Melo and Rose. The issue I saw was that Horny wanted everyone to run and gun and also get back fast on D. A team with a trio like that, you probably need 2 quality defenders around that big 3 and you want to play a little slower where your superior isolation talent, superior size comes into play. We went into the top 12 in the league in pace and we were up there in field goal attempts. We increased our 3 point shooting output considerably. In doing so we also made ourselves more likely to be scored on and being unable to set up a halfcourt defense properly.
I don't think a great coach is one who only does the same thing with every team he has. Perhaps Horny just miscalculated what the team was able to do. He may have thought they had the legs and ability to play at this pace and defend a high number of possessions. Unfortunately they did not. I think longterm we want to play the way Horny tried to get these guys to play. However we need to trade Melo, we need to move away from isolation basketball and lack of speed. We need to get a little younger and more athletic. As much as I appreciate Melo's scoring, I just don't think he's a good fit with this type of set up.
What we are is a hybrid or a combination of the Triangle and it's elements as well as the modern day pace/space. There are teams that use this kind of set up and do well. Atlanta. San Antonio. However they also have superior athleticism and defensive talent. They don't play at this pace I think. We probably can run Horny's plans well if we get more athletic and younger. It just won't happen with a veteran team of Melo, Noah, Lee (all 30+).
The good news is I don't think Melo will want to stay a Knick beyond this season. We'll be in the draft lottery. Very fast we can change our identity to a more younger, athletic team around KP. Drafting someone good in the lottery will go a long way in that. Hopefully Melo will finally see the writing on the wall and waives his NTC.
CrushAlot wrote:Nellie also said some very classless things about John Starks from his time trying to make the Warriors and for some reason held a grudge against him when he became the coach of the Knicks. Totally nothing Starks did just Nelson being a jerk. I also wouldn't be shocked if Nellie did the things you described trying to manipulate the media to get favorable press.holfresh wrote:Stuff goes down here you just don't see anywhere else in the NBA with consistency..Yeah you can't make it up. I didn't know about Nelson though. A buddy of mine covered Nelson when he coached the Warriors and was invited to dinner at his house to do the interview he had to do. He had a lot of great things to say about Nellie, that the press loved him, he helped guys in the press out, let them stay at his vacation estate etc. His biggest memory from the dinner with Nellie was that Popovich was there and didn't talk the entire two hours he was there.
Don Nelson used to coach drunk..
JVG and Grenfeld big fight..
JVG quit 11 games in..
Strickland said Pitino told him he could never start in this league then traded him for seemingly 40 year old Mo Cheeks..
Isiah era
Annucha..
Marbury..
LB tirade
MDA quits
Donnie made his or else demand..
Woodson winning then run out of town
Phil insist on the triangle from the GM box..
Makes Rambis DC
Rose MIA
Knicks fans are terrible selfish bunch with no patience, no sense of empathy to team needs, no connection to reality.
Fans and NY media are the once who force players, owner, GM , and coaches into bad rushed decisions.
How about let team be and slowly work on improvements. I guess it is too much to ask...
nyknickzingis wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Jmpasq wrote:Hornaceck deserves to be fired but how many damn coaches should Dolan pay. Fisher was a scumbag guy shouldnt of got a dimeNo, he doesn't.
You don't hire a guy that has a plan to play basketball, tell him to change it for your outdated plan, get him players that don't fit such outdated plan, which make such players hate the plan, then watch it all crumble before your eyes and fire that guy because of it.
This big apple is rotten in so many places, you might as well throw it to the trash.
This team had talent to play good basketball. They may not have had the type of talent Hornachek would have done best with, but they had considerable talent. Not many teams have a trio like KP, Melo and Rose. The issue I saw was that Horny wanted everyone to run and gun and also get back fast on D. A team with a trio like that, you probably need 2 quality defenders around that big 3 and you want to play a little slower where your superior isolation talent, superior size comes into play. We went into the top 12 in the league in pace and we were up there in field goal attempts. We increased our 3 point shooting output considerably. In doing so we also made ourselves more likely to be scored on and being unable to set up a halfcourt defense properly.
I don't think a great coach is one who only does the same thing with every team he has. Perhaps Horny just miscalculated what the team was able to do. He may have thought they had the legs and ability to play at this pace and defend a high number of possessions. Unfortunately they did not. I think longterm we want to play the way Horny tried to get these guys to play. However we need to trade Melo, we need to move away from isolation basketball and lack of speed. We need to get a little younger and more athletic. As much as I appreciate Melo's scoring, I just don't think he's a good fit with this type of set up.
What we are is a hybrid or a combination of the Triangle and it's elements as well as the modern day pace/space. There are teams that use this kind of set up and do well. Atlanta. San Antonio. However they also have superior athleticism and defensive talent. They don't play at this pace I think. We probably can run Horny's plans well if we get more athletic and younger. It just won't happen with a veteran team of Melo, Noah, Lee (all 30+).
The good news is I don't think Melo will want to stay a Knick beyond this season. We'll be in the draft lottery. Very fast we can change our identity to a more younger, athletic team around KP. Drafting someone good in the lottery will go a long way in that. Hopefully Melo will finally see the writing on the wall and waives his NTC.
Yeah I think you can rebuild around KP with quality young talent. If you give Horny some real thoroughbreds that can play at the pace and energy level he wants he'll be successful. We just can't rely on Melo and Noah to play that way at this stage of their careers. Just look at the drop off on back to backs!!!
Jeff is kind of like a college coach in that his personality might fit better with younger more compliant players that will run through walls for him. Guys without personal AGENDAS!!!
I'm a Hornacek supporter but honestly completely befuddled how bad this defense is. It's not merely something that could improve. It's game-changing losing
We can play great offense and still get crushed. If it's not in the paint on pick and roll (early in the season), it's threes. If it's not threes its the bucks killing us in transition, driving in the paint and picking up a million foul calls.
It'a very good question raised earlier concerning what kind of defense pairs with Hornacek's high pace offense. I don't know the answer to it.
It may be outdated but I do know that the triangle considered that. It wasn't just an offensive system; it was a whole game plan. Balance for rebounding; balance for defense; even a strategy for getting in the paint and getting fouled in response to which you have your most efficient way to score (ignoring isolated plays like dunks), a chance for your players to get a breather, and your team is already set up for a balanced transition on defense
Not saying we should be slaves to triangle but i think when we say we like hornacek's offense we need to ask about the whole system
nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Jmpasq wrote:Hornaceck deserves to be fired but how many damn coaches should Dolan pay. Fisher was a scumbag guy shouldnt of got a dimeNo, he doesn't.
You don't hire a guy that has a plan to play basketball, tell him to change it for your outdated plan, get him players that don't fit such outdated plan, which make such players hate the plan, then watch it all crumble before your eyes and fire that guy because of it.
This big apple is rotten in so many places, you might as well throw it to the trash.
This team had talent to play good basketball. They may not have had the type of talent Hornachek would have done best with, but they had considerable talent. Not many teams have a trio like KP, Melo and Rose. The issue I saw was that Horny wanted everyone to run and gun and also get back fast on D. A team with a trio like that, you probably need 2 quality defenders around that big 3 and you want to play a little slower where your superior isolation talent, superior size comes into play. We went into the top 12 in the league in pace and we were up there in field goal attempts. We increased our 3 point shooting output considerably. In doing so we also made ourselves more likely to be scored on and being unable to set up a halfcourt defense properly.
I don't think a great coach is one who only does the same thing with every team he has. Perhaps Horny just miscalculated what the team was able to do. He may have thought they had the legs and ability to play at this pace and defend a high number of possessions. Unfortunately they did not. I think longterm we want to play the way Horny tried to get these guys to play. However we need to trade Melo, we need to move away from isolation basketball and lack of speed. We need to get a little younger and more athletic. As much as I appreciate Melo's scoring, I just don't think he's a good fit with this type of set up.
What we are is a hybrid or a combination of the Triangle and it's elements as well as the modern day pace/space. There are teams that use this kind of set up and do well. Atlanta. San Antonio. However they also have superior athleticism and defensive talent. They don't play at this pace I think. We probably can run Horny's plans well if we get more athletic and younger. It just won't happen with a veteran team of Melo, Noah, Lee (all 30+).
The good news is I don't think Melo will want to stay a Knick beyond this season. We'll be in the draft lottery. Very fast we can change our identity to a more younger, athletic team around KP. Drafting someone good in the lottery will go a long way in that. Hopefully Melo will finally see the writing on the wall and waives his NTC.
Yeah I think you can rebuild around KP with quality young talent. If you give Horny some real thoroughbreds that can play at the pace and energy level he wants he'll be successful. We just can't rely on Melo and Noah to play that way at this stage of their careers. Just look at the drop off on back to backs!!!
Jeff is kind of like a college coach in that his personality might fit better with younger more compliant players that will run through walls for him. Guys without personal AGENDAS!!!
Players with personal agenda of winning and greatness will work wonders for every coach.
Players with personal brands and business agendas will not work for any.
Knicks never created the environment were NBA current and future greats will desire to go with all this fake MSG "Mecca" b..st.
So we get selfish money hungry outcasts without integrity and purpose in life.
We get a freak show in place of great sport.
So now we have to watch it for 20 years. May be it is time to stop?
Put that all together and I find it hard to believe anyone would put this at the feet of Hornacek. His biggest mistake was not telling Phil that he wouldn't take the job unless he calls the shots. Does it really look like he's calling the shots?
In Phoenix, Hornacek was caught between a beef between players and mgmt. Id like to see how Jeff does with a starting PG who can manage more than 4 assists per game and play defense.
GustavBahler wrote:Hornacek has the offense, and defense forced on him. His top assistant is one of the worst coaches in NBA history, and the president's best friend. Phil has done a good job of pissing off some of his players as well, with his tweets.This!Put that all together and I find it hard to believe anyone would put this at the feet of Hornacek. His biggest mistake was not telling Phil that he wouldn't take the job unless he calls the shots. Does it really look like he's calling the shots?
In Phoenix, Hornacek was caught between a beef between players and mgmt. Id like to see how Jeff does with a starting PG who can manage more than 4 assists per game and play defense.
arkrud wrote:nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Jmpasq wrote:Hornaceck deserves to be fired but how many damn coaches should Dolan pay. Fisher was a scumbag guy shouldnt of got a dimeNo, he doesn't.
You don't hire a guy that has a plan to play basketball, tell him to change it for your outdated plan, get him players that don't fit such outdated plan, which make such players hate the plan, then watch it all crumble before your eyes and fire that guy because of it.
This big apple is rotten in so many places, you might as well throw it to the trash.
This team had talent to play good basketball. They may not have had the type of talent Hornachek would have done best with, but they had considerable talent. Not many teams have a trio like KP, Melo and Rose. The issue I saw was that Horny wanted everyone to run and gun and also get back fast on D. A team with a trio like that, you probably need 2 quality defenders around that big 3 and you want to play a little slower where your superior isolation talent, superior size comes into play. We went into the top 12 in the league in pace and we were up there in field goal attempts. We increased our 3 point shooting output considerably. In doing so we also made ourselves more likely to be scored on and being unable to set up a halfcourt defense properly.
I don't think a great coach is one who only does the same thing with every team he has. Perhaps Horny just miscalculated what the team was able to do. He may have thought they had the legs and ability to play at this pace and defend a high number of possessions. Unfortunately they did not. I think longterm we want to play the way Horny tried to get these guys to play. However we need to trade Melo, we need to move away from isolation basketball and lack of speed. We need to get a little younger and more athletic. As much as I appreciate Melo's scoring, I just don't think he's a good fit with this type of set up.
What we are is a hybrid or a combination of the Triangle and it's elements as well as the modern day pace/space. There are teams that use this kind of set up and do well. Atlanta. San Antonio. However they also have superior athleticism and defensive talent. They don't play at this pace I think. We probably can run Horny's plans well if we get more athletic and younger. It just won't happen with a veteran team of Melo, Noah, Lee (all 30+).
The good news is I don't think Melo will want to stay a Knick beyond this season. We'll be in the draft lottery. Very fast we can change our identity to a more younger, athletic team around KP. Drafting someone good in the lottery will go a long way in that. Hopefully Melo will finally see the writing on the wall and waives his NTC.
Yeah I think you can rebuild around KP with quality young talent. If you give Horny some real thoroughbreds that can play at the pace and energy level he wants he'll be successful. We just can't rely on Melo and Noah to play that way at this stage of their careers. Just look at the drop off on back to backs!!!
Jeff is kind of like a college coach in that his personality might fit better with younger more compliant players that will run through walls for him. Guys without personal AGENDAS!!!
Players with personal agenda of winning and greatness will work wonders for every coach.
Players with personal brands and business agendas will not work for any.
Knicks never created the environment were NBA current and future greats will desire to go with all this fake MSG "Mecca" b..st.
So we get selfish money hungry outcasts without integrity and purpose in life.
We get a freak show in place of great sport.
So now we have to watch it for 20 years. May be it is time to stop?
Players with actual talent works wonders too...
Wake up, this is the new NBA where all players have brands...Curry and LeBron is a brand..Tim Duncan of the world is long gone..The quicker we understand that an adapt the quicker we can compete with teams and players who compete for titles every year...This world is constantly changing and ideas change as well..Living in the past doesnt help the future..
Vmart wrote:This is the Knicks they pretty much quit on every coach. This is what they do best.
You've gotta do better than this. MOST of this team is NEW! They don't have anything to do with the last team. If you wanna say Melo is the one factor that remains then perhaps a case can be made. The same with Phil, Rambis, Mills or Dolan. The players are for the most part totally unaffiliated with the teams of the past. I think this team was 14-10 at one point and playing reasonably well. WTH happened since that point and how does this team get better?
nixluva wrote:Vmart wrote:This is the Knicks they pretty much quit on every coach. This is what they do best.You've gotta do better than this. MOST of this team is NEW! They don't have anything to do with the last team. If you wanna say Melo is the one factor that remains then perhaps a case can be made. The same with Phil, Rambis, Mills or Dolan. The players are for the most part totally unaffiliated with the teams of the past. I think this team was 14-10 at one point and playing reasonably well. WTH happened since that point and how does this team get better?
How many coaches can a team go through? I don't know there is no helping this damn team. There has been one player that turned this franchise around since 2000 it's Jason Kidd. Soon as he retires the whole team crumbled. The Knicks have not had a leader and they are still looking for a leader. The coach is only as good as the leader he has.