Knicks · Is phil worse than Isaih (page 5)
knicks1248 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:knicks1248 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No, our future isnt completely mortgaged.
what future, we have no future other than KP. phils direction changes every six months. Just because he doesn't mortgage the future, doesn't give him a pass. We are going in circles.As far as I know we have some cap room, our picks arent spoken for into the next century, we have some young players who are showing something, have more rooks playing than anyone else. Not a team comprised almost entirely of broken down, overpaid vets, who cant stay on the court.
After reading all the criticism I have directed at Phil at times (which Im assuming you've read) do you really want to accuse me of giving him a pass? Really?
Im not anti phil or I T, im just simply not going to ignore the fact that at the end of the day, the team still sucks under his leadership...
cap space means nothing if you can get a decent player to sign on (and we have seen this), draft picks mean nothing if you draft a dud (70% chance of that happening).
You have to make smart trades to build..
Im not ignoring it either, havent been. But you asked who we thought was a worse executive. I believe MS had the best summation of Isiah's time here, cant remember what page, but its an eye opener. I believe that the difference between Phil, Isiah, and Layden is in some areas, Phil seems to have learned from some of the mistakes of his predecessor, in some of the areas I pointed out.
The team still sucks, its still drama central, but I hold out the hope that Phil will go back to thinking about what didn't work for the Knicks. Like going away from the gradual rebuild, to a desperate attempt IMO to make some noise in the playoffs. Even if one of the contracts expires, taking such a sharp turn in the other direction is an act of desperation.
Our starting PG is ranked well below former D-league players as a playmaker, and thats just in the East. Thats desperate, as in desperate situation on the court. So is our frontcourt with a frequently hobbled player as the starting center. Some of that is on Hornacek at this point, he's given Noah more than a fair chance. Pulling him after a couple of minutes as a starter wont be a favor.
Slow and steady wins the race IMO. Doesnt mean you dont try to add talent in free agency or trade, but you dont load up the team with vets to the point where the rebuild gets pushed farther back.
knicks1248 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:smackeddog wrote:I think phil has done an okay job, given the circumstances he inherited. Sometimes things just don't work out- look at SVG, he was praised last year, then this year, with the same roster, it's all gone wrong- doesn't mean he's suddenly become an idiot.I would have preferred Vogel or Thibs as coach, but then again, both of their teams are struggling too.
A big decider for Phil's legacy is what happens with Melo- if he trades him for some good assets, then all those people blasting him for signing melo are proven to be wrong (as they would have let him walk and we would have been left with nothing).
If he can move Rose for an asset thats also a good move. Next few months should be interesting.
That is not a good way to assess giving Melo a contract. It assumes having Melo didn't cost us anything else and after 2.5 years of directionless mediocrity getting another player somehow gives us back the time and any other opportunities we would have had if let Melo walk.
This isn't even about Melo, but when you commit that much money to a player and give him an NTC you are also committing to bringing other players to play with him. This led to Rose trade and we lost Rolo and Grant. Ask yourself if we would have lost them if Melo wasnt here. Plus the amount of money we have Melo would have gone towards other players we would have acquired in FA so you would have add back their value as well when assessing the contact we gave Melo and the NTC.
To take an event and judge its success or failure without looking at the context or any other variables directly impacted by that event is a poor assessment of its value.
Exactly. He's gotta get us assets in a Melo trade that are superior to what a smart GM could get out of 25 mil in cap space signings. Even then, we still lost 2 1/2 years.With all these moves phil has made, do you trust him going further to get it right. No trade has panned out, drafts picks look good at first and then the player runs into a wall, FA signing have not worked out.
You sign a player and give him a NTC, then try to trade him 2 yrs into a 5 yr deal. You kill IT for spending wildly without thought, and phil gets a pass for making emotional thoughtless trades, and signing FA that get traded or walk 6 months later..How can you have confidence in this man
Ummmm, I have close to zero confidence in him or Dolan. I think you confused me with someone else.
Bonn1997 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:smackeddog wrote:I think phil has done an okay job, given the circumstances he inherited. Sometimes things just don't work out- look at SVG, he was praised last year, then this year, with the same roster, it's all gone wrong- doesn't mean he's suddenly become an idiot.I would have preferred Vogel or Thibs as coach, but then again, both of their teams are struggling too.
A big decider for Phil's legacy is what happens with Melo- if he trades him for some good assets, then all those people blasting him for signing melo are proven to be wrong (as they would have let him walk and we would have been left with nothing).
If he can move Rose for an asset thats also a good move. Next few months should be interesting.
That is not a good way to assess giving Melo a contract. It assumes having Melo didn't cost us anything else and after 2.5 years of directionless mediocrity getting another player somehow gives us back the time and any other opportunities we would have had if let Melo walk.
This isn't even about Melo, but when you commit that much money to a player and give him an NTC you are also committing to bringing other players to play with him. This led to Rose trade and we lost Rolo and Grant. Ask yourself if we would have lost them if Melo wasnt here. Plus the amount of money we have Melo would have gone towards other players we would have acquired in FA so you would have add back their value as well when assessing the contact we gave Melo and the NTC.
To take an event and judge its success or failure without looking at the context or any other variables directly impacted by that event is a poor assessment of its value.
Exactly. He's gotta get us assets in a Melo trade that are superior to what a smart GM could get out of 25 mil in cap space signings. Even then, we still lost 2 1/2 years.With all these moves phil has made, do you trust him going further to get it right. No trade has panned out, drafts picks look good at first and then the player runs into a wall, FA signing have not worked out.
You sign a player and give him a NTC, then try to trade him 2 yrs into a 5 yr deal. You kill IT for spending wildly without thought, and phil gets a pass for making emotional thoughtless trades, and signing FA that get traded or walk 6 months later..How can you have confidence in this man
Ummmm, I have close to zero confidence in him or Dolan. I think you confused me with someone else.
I thought you would welcome a melo trade.
We have a prez that is going into his 4th season without even remotely sniffing the playoffs, and about to make another move that will surely make the playoffs look more like fantasy island for the next 2 to 3 yrs.
The team's record comes down to one thing: Phil doesn't have access to good enough top talent because he didn't have draft picks coming in and because teams that are bad don't get free agents. This is the same problem that every team not named Cleveland or Golden State has. From the moment Phil got here, the Knicks have been years away from anything resembling a contender and still are. This isn't likely to change until Porzingis hits his peak in about 5 seasons. People are mad because Phil can't get free agents, but the history is that free agents either stay with their own team or go somewhere with recent success.
Melo was here already, and Phil took some risk to try to win games by signing intangibles guys to go with the pair of Melo and Rose and to be good mentors for Porzingis. I get the logic here, but it's not working this season because the Knicks' best players don't bring it every night so the Knicks have really bad defense. The risk is offset by keeping draft picks and having Rose on a one-year contract that you can walk away from.
The one thing that Phil does need to do is get rid of Rambis, though.
y2zipper wrote:I'm not mad at the roster construction of the Knicks and I wouldn't say Phil is even close to as bad as Isiah. Phil has done well when he's had a chance to draft high (which he gets to do again this season), has put together some good things at the bottom of the roster and fired Fisher when it clearly wasn't working out and when Fisher decided to be an idiot.
The team's record comes down to one thing: Phil doesn't have access to good enough top talent because he didn't have draft picks coming in and because teams that are bad don't get free agents. This is the same problem that every team not named Cleveland or Golden State has. From the moment Phil got here, the Knicks have been years away from anything resembling a contender and still are. This isn't likely to change until Porzingis hits his peak in about 5 seasons. People are mad because Phil can't get free agents, but the history is that free agents either stay with their own team or go somewhere with recent success.Melo was here already, and Phil took some risk to try to win games by signing intangibles guys to go with the pair of Melo and Rose and to be good mentors for Porzingis. I get the logic here, but it's not working this season because the Knicks' best players don't bring it every night so the Knicks have really bad defense. The risk is offset by keeping draft picks and having Rose on a one-year contract that you can walk away from.
The one thing that Phil does need to do is get rid of Rambis, though.
Agree completely with this assessment. I think the three contacts are really bad, but Rose is expiring and if we can move Melo then we will have a lot more freedom and opportunity to build a winning culture. Noah maybe the biggest boner. Of everything that went down I expected this to be the last bad signing (but still bad) and it turned out to be the worst. Luck clearly doesn't side with the Knicks.
Let's looks at the bad
Signing Noah for 72 million but to his defense he didn't know KOQ was going to break out, or Willy was going to be the player he is. Plus Noah is still a vocal team leader and a great rebounder.
Giving melo a NTC was a mistake but at the time it was let him walk to chi town for nothing or bring him back this was pre KP our future looked grim
Let's look at the good.
Drafting KP:franchise player future face of the NBA
Drafting Willy: looks like a future starting front court mate of KP for years to come
Signing Lee a great team player
Trading for a one year rental of rose while getting rid of the garbage of Jose
Getting Justin holiday as a throw in!
Signing Jennings to a one year rental
Signing and finding KUZ! Future starter/ role player
Signing and finding BAKER: future role player
Signing plumlee future back up
And best of all KEEPING our DRAFT PICKS
We have a very bright future despite recent struggles. Next years line up
Willy,KOQ,Plum
KP,KUZ,Thomas
Melo,KUZ,Holiday
Lee,holiday,baker
Jennings, baker,
Also throw in a top draft choice in that mix
I think we resign Jennings on the cheap, let rose walk and try and move Noah.
This team is up and coming esp when you have KP 21 and willy22 as serious foundation keep melo as a vet and upgrade through the draft ....
Also I've said all along as long as we can stay close to 500 before the all star break watch out this team is a ticking time bomb !
I think if Jennings can keep playing like he did last night when rose gets back he will come off the bench and be a scorer for that second unit
knicks1248 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:smackeddog wrote:I think phil has done an okay job, given the circumstances he inherited. Sometimes things just don't work out- look at SVG, he was praised last year, then this year, with the same roster, it's all gone wrong- doesn't mean he's suddenly become an idiot.I would have preferred Vogel or Thibs as coach, but then again, both of their teams are struggling too.
A big decider for Phil's legacy is what happens with Melo- if he trades him for some good assets, then all those people blasting him for signing melo are proven to be wrong (as they would have let him walk and we would have been left with nothing).
If he can move Rose for an asset thats also a good move. Next few months should be interesting.
That is not a good way to assess giving Melo a contract. It assumes having Melo didn't cost us anything else and after 2.5 years of directionless mediocrity getting another player somehow gives us back the time and any other opportunities we would have had if let Melo walk.
This isn't even about Melo, but when you commit that much money to a player and give him an NTC you are also committing to bringing other players to play with him. This led to Rose trade and we lost Rolo and Grant. Ask yourself if we would have lost them if Melo wasnt here. Plus the amount of money we have Melo would have gone towards other players we would have acquired in FA so you would have add back their value as well when assessing the contact we gave Melo and the NTC.
To take an event and judge its success or failure without looking at the context or any other variables directly impacted by that event is a poor assessment of its value.
Exactly. He's gotta get us assets in a Melo trade that are superior to what a smart GM could get out of 25 mil in cap space signings. Even then, we still lost 2 1/2 years.With all these moves phil has made, do you trust him going further to get it right. No trade has panned out, drafts picks look good at first and then the player runs into a wall, FA signing have not worked out.
You sign a player and give him a NTC, then try to trade him 2 yrs into a 5 yr deal. You kill IT for spending wildly without thought, and phil gets a pass for making emotional thoughtless trades, and signing FA that get traded or walk 6 months later..How can you have confidence in this man
Ummmm, I have close to zero confidence in him or Dolan. I think you confused me with someone else.I thought you would welcome a melo trade.
We have a prez that is going into his 4th season without even remotely sniffing the playoffs, and about to make another move that will surely make the playoffs look more like fantasy island for the next 2 to 3 yrs.
I would welcome a SMART Melo trade, which means we at least get cap space (and then use that cap space intelligently). I never said I had confidence Phil and Dolan would pull this off. I'd welcome the trade in the sense that keeping Melo at a salary higher than most all-stars and even superstars is certainly bad, and Phil trading him is just very likely to be bad.
“That's what's been the constant, that the level of chaos that's gone on there, the constant's been the owner. So you're back to, again, Phil Jackson with Jeff Hornack 'Well I want you to run the triangle’ or 'You've got to keep Kurt Rambis who I really wanted as the head coach. He's got to be your defensive coordinator.’”http://www.netsdaily.com/2017/1/28/14424...
TheGame wrote:Phil has done a better job, but in defense of Isiah, he did not have the lack of pressure that Phil had. Isiah had to come in and win. Phil was given the freedom to take two seasons and build a team, which he still has not done. But Phil was Better due to drafting KP. Isiah's main screw up was trusting that Curry could play when if was in fact a lazy overweight underachiever. Phil biggest mistake so far is probably signing Noah, who is probably the 3rd best center on the team. But with just a few wise moves, this team could be setup well for the future. We have Willy and KOQ for two more years on the cheap, so the Noah contract does not kill us. What Phil does in the draft and with Rose will define this franchise for the next 5 years. Plus, he needs to move Melo for something decent.
I completely agree with you here, but I'm a pigy back on this
Phil's judgment is really bad, he knows it, but reading his 2015 interview with the NY TIMES (right before the 2015 draft)he stated that he was more so grooming STEVE MILLS (who was once fired from this same franchise)to take over the team. (how does a guy with zero GM experinece groom someone to take over
There has not been a team in a very looooooong time to trade away it best player and recover
and lets not forget about these little facts..
Though none of Porzingis' ailments have been serious, the 21-year-old has missed 18 of his first 133 games. Only Lance Thomas has sat out more games for the Knicks during that stretch because of health issues.Following Wednesday's game, Porzingis was walking gingerly in the locker room because of tightness in his back, the consequence of a dunk attempt with just 15 seconds remaining. He said it was a minor injury, despite his grimacing.
"It happened to me before," Porzingis said, "so I'll be fine."The other issues for Porzingis have been his post-game, his pick-and-roll defense and his penchant for fouling (Porzingis leads the NBA in fouls per game at 3.9). It also could be a detriment to Porzingis' development and the Knicks’ future to deal Anthony for scraps, because there are enough examples of teams that still haven't recovered from trading their star to harness the unproven — Orlando hasn't made the playoffs since sending off Dwight Howard; Minnesota hasn't made it since dealing Kevin Garnett; New Orleans advanced to the postseason only once since dealing Chris Paul; Denver hasn't won a playoff series since trading Carmelo; New York has captured one measly playoff series since trading Patrick Ewing.
If you raise your children around drug dealers, and drug users, there is a 90% chance he or she will be one or the other.
If you raise your draft picks around constant losing, he will develop losing habits, and he will except losing on a regular because thats all he knows.
When you look at successfull high draft picks like Duncan, labron, kobe, ect, they develop much quicker and had more impact surrounded by veterans.
KP is no where near ready and phil knows this. I know I T was stupid in his own ways, but just because phil hasn't mortgage the future, or been charged with harrasment, doesnt making him a saint.
The subliminal comments to labron, throwing his own players under the bus, constanly flipping his roster, and having zero success in 3 1/2 years (a franchise worse winning %) doesn't make phil a better leader then I T.
A few moves maybe all we need, but he hasn't no where come close to making the right moves other than a couple solid picks, and clearly, that aint cutting it.
knicks1248 wrote:TheGame wrote:Phil has done a better job, but in defense of Isiah, he did not have the lack of pressure that Phil had. Isiah had to come in and win. Phil was given the freedom to take two seasons and build a team, which he still has not done. But Phil was Better due to drafting KP. Isiah's main screw up was trusting that Curry could play when if was in fact a lazy overweight underachiever. Phil biggest mistake so far is probably signing Noah, who is probably the 3rd best center on the team. But with just a few wise moves, this team could be setup well for the future. We have Willy and KOQ for two more years on the cheap, so the Noah contract does not kill us. What Phil does in the draft and with Rose will define this franchise for the next 5 years. Plus, he needs to move Melo for something decent.
I completely agree with you here, but I'm a pigy back on thisPhil's judgment is really bad, he knows it, but reading his 2015 interview with the NY TIMES (right before the 2015 draft)he stated that he was more so grooming STEVE MILLS (who was once fired from this same franchise)to take over the team. (how does a guy with zero GM experinece groom someone to take over
There has not been a team in a very looooooong time to trade away it best player and recover
and lets not forget about these little facts..Though none of Porzingis' ailments have been serious, the 21-year-old has missed 18 of his first 133 games. Only Lance Thomas has sat out more games for the Knicks during that stretch because of health issues.Following Wednesday's game, Porzingis was walking gingerly in the locker room because of tightness in his back, the consequence of a dunk attempt with just 15 seconds remaining. He said it was a minor injury, despite his grimacing.
"It happened to me before," Porzingis said, "so I'll be fine."The other issues for Porzingis have been his post-game, his pick-and-roll defense and his penchant for fouling (Porzingis leads the NBA in fouls per game at 3.9). It also could be a detriment to Porzingis' development and the Knicks’ future to deal Anthony for scraps, because there are enough examples of teams that still haven't recovered from trading their star to harness the unproven — Orlando hasn't made the playoffs since sending off Dwight Howard; Minnesota hasn't made it since dealing Kevin Garnett; New Orleans advanced to the postseason only once since dealing Chris Paul; Denver hasn't won a playoff series since trading Carmelo; New York has captured one measly playoff series since trading Patrick Ewing.
If you raise your children around drug dealers, and drug users, there is a 90% chance he or she will be one or the other.
If you raise your draft picks around constant losing, he will develop losing habits, and he will except losing on a regular because thats all he knows.
When you look at successfull high draft picks like Duncan, labron, kobe, ect, they develop much quicker and had more impact surrounded by veterans.
KP is no where near ready and phil knows this. I know I T was stupid in his own ways, but just because phil hasn't mortgage the future, or been charged with harrasment, doesnt making him a saint.
The subliminal comments to labron, throwing his own players under the bus, constanly flipping his roster, and having zero success in 3 1/2 years (a franchise worse winning %) doesn't make phil a better leader then I T.
A few moves maybe all we need, but he hasn't no where come close to making the right moves other than a couple solid picks, and clearly, that aint cutting it.
This bud's for you. Share it with "labron"