fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Isaih is no Phil. Isaih did not have the stealth like way of throwing others under the bus, in order to draw attention away from himself. He did not know the secret of not being available for questions and hiding in the wings so as to not have to answer silly questions and be accountable. Also, Isaih was too dumb to know how to hide all his slimy personality traits. He was blatant and out in the open with them. My vote is to get the guy that got us KP and Willy.....Gaines!! To be the new GM. Let Dolan lose some more money with Phil's contract. Hell, while were at it, let him fire Hornacek too and lose some more of Dolan's money. Then maybe we can hire a defense oriented coach.
People talk about being patient, has phil shown any desire to be patient, he's on the verge of scraping his rebuilt roster for a 4th time. what exactly does that tell you?
that your not paying attention to his moves
I have paid attention to phil scrapping every move he makes in a heart beat. Sign 4 FA last year, all are gone, drafted grant, traded him, drafted Early, he's not even in the league, gave anothe eastern conference team the peices to a championship for 2nd round picks and a player who's not in the league, and if it wasn't for baker, he would still be a knick.
Rose, yeah we got rose for melo and KP, but wait, rose doesn't pass. We signed NOAH, thats self explanitory. I like the LEE signing, Lance look suspect before he got hurt.
Here's the thing, almost everyone Knows Rambis is a major part of the problem, but thats his boy, so these moves become personal, not business. Just like trading Shumert, and JR.
They struggle to run his triangle (i'm sure he expected them to grasp the in 2 months
) you gotta go. When the comments came out about melo Holding the ball recently, why the hell did that come to him through the media. He see's melo at practice, dude is a text message away, why are you airing bull sht out when your team is winning and jelling.
When that comment came out we were 14-11, now look at us. Phil is the biggest disruption and always has some subliminal (read through the lines)BS to say. Every Good move he makes, he makes a straigt head scratching move which cancels out the first move. Like off setting penalties, do the sht all over, and thats what he keeps doing..STUCK IN POSITION.
Jackson has been here 3 years and in 2 of those years he did not have his team's #1 pick...both of them lottery quality, and he was also missing most of our own #2s, if I remember correctly.
The real issue is whether or not he should have signed Anthony...especially with the no trade/$10M buy out clause.
Guys can get on him for Grant, but there were a number of people around here who liked Grant more than KP, if I remember correctly. Willy looks like he will be a keeper a fixture in the linup...picking him up for a couple of distant #2s was a great move.
The Calderon/Dalembere(sp) trade turned out to be terrible, though Early, who we got in the draft, was regarded highly by some. Big mistake here was that Crowder was supposedly available and we didn't take a chance on him. If we had kept Chandler, we could have gotten more for him at the trade deadline...maybe the 1st round picks that Denver got from the Cavs
The acquisition of Rose and Noah were as much for Melo as anything else. I wasn't as excited about Rose as some were, but he had an expiring contract. Thought the price for Noah was high...but never expected him to play like he has. I thought Lee was a nice pickup, and he didn't cost much. He's been a bit spotty, but I also think he's a player b3st suited for a complimentary role, especially from deep, and I don't think he is taken advantage in our offense, even though he has been sporadic at times.
Biggest fear for me now is the that the team we have now is clearly hurting KP's offensive development. Some of his issues might be achilles related, but we have also developed an offense that seems more isolation or hero ball oriented than teamwork centered. I find it torturous to watch. We've had some good moments, but our half court offense is a major issue. Is it Rose, Melo, Hornacek?...I don't know, but we are clearly not playing as a team more times than not.
knicks1248 wrote:Phil may be worse,
With no comparison to Zeke, Phil Jackson was always a lose/lose situation
If Jackson was wildly successful ( and the odds were against it with bad contracts and no draft picks and come from a first time executive), he was near 70 and would not give the Knicks the kind of 15-20-25 years you could get with a RC Buford or some other front office type. This would also burn valuable time you could be giving a GM/President/Team runner who gives you a chance at longevity.
If Jackson failed, which was likely, it would be because he would make short term moves that protected his ego/legacy/reputation while punishing the Knicks long term situation ( which he did with his FA moves and trading for Rose), he did not have front office experience to do this job, would force the team into an offense that proves too complicated to run effectively, and the rebuild situation would only start at about Year 3 of 5, when those bad contracts and zero picks would shed off as hindrances.
Jackson is better than Dolan. But Jackson is a mediocre choice because he did not present the Knicks with a good long term option whether he succeeded or failed, and odds are he would fail. I believe he knew he would fail. But he got a nice golden parachute for his retirement, lots of cash and still gets to get face time with the press. And if it blew up, he could blame Dolan for it.
Jackson was a "name" hire. Lots of sizzle, but no steak.
Lots of really smart and hard working and battle tested guys in front offices around the league, on winning teams, waiting for a chance to do right by a franchise and help rebuild it the right way. But Dolan would never give those guys a chance. Because Dolan never had to work for anything, he can't appreciate any of these guys who bled to get where they are now.
I think phil has done an okay job, given the circumstances he inherited. Sometimes things just don't work out- look at SVG, he was praised last year, then this year, with the same roster, it's all gone wrong- doesn't mean he's suddenly become an idiot.
I would have preferred Vogel or Thibs as coach, but then again, both of their teams are struggling too.
A big decider for Phil's legacy is what happens with Melo- if he trades him for some good assets, then all those people blasting him for signing melo are proven to be wrong (as they would have let him walk and we would have been left with nothing).
If he can move Rose for an asset thats also a good move. Next few months should be interesting.
All depends on ones expectation.
Dolan hired phil to also quell fan revolt who needed hope. BKN was making a starphuch attempt of their own and if successful could have turned a new generation who don' know of knick success. Many of you are fans because of the ewing era that started 30 years ago. I am a fan because of the magic of the 70's legacy team. I moved from NYC in 1986 and the Ewing era was mine from afar.
Phil bought a cred with him. No GM is without his mistakes running a team and phil has his share. We survived a 17 win season because phil was there to sell a rebuild. one no. 1 pick in three drafts is not an easy task. At least we have a cornerstone.
Isiah never drafted one. To blame phil for dismantling a 54 and a 37 win team as if it was worthy of keeping is ignorant. Look at the roster and decide. To build with Shump or JR even without the triangle is not a worth while way to spend.
Bottom line is team is failing and fans are upset. Naturally we must assign blame and channel our anger. Anger is what makes Wrestling so popular. Comic books and wrestling all have a hero and a villain. Some of you need a hero to defend and a villain to blame. Most complex stories have both and sometimes we don't know who is who. Comics and wrestling can't go into deep plot development. Neither can some of you.
Isiah and Phil both have the same intentions but come form different places. Isiah's post playing career has been as an exec who operates over his head and enjoys the position of power. Phil is not without his ego, but seems to relish is forming relationships and then watching them interact and succeed. A form of delegation. When he coached, he was not a screaming control freak kind of guy.
Melo smiles when he fails and stoic when he succeeds. Watch a close game and his expressions. Melo is a great talent but perhaps sees the game as a business and has different metrics by which he wins. This is the modern athlete and they understand many circumstances have to come together in order for a team to succeed. Few NBA players in history can install their will like Jordan or Lebron both on the court and in the front office!!!!!
In todays era, Lebron is both a hero and a villain.
smackeddog wrote:I think phil has done an okay job, given the circumstances he inherited. Sometimes things just don't work out- look at SVG, he was praised last year, then this year, with the same roster, it's all gone wrong- doesn't mean he's suddenly become an idiot. I would have preferred Vogel or Thibs as coach, but then again, both of their teams are struggling too.
A big decider for Phil's legacy is what happens with Melo- if he trades him for some good assets, then all those people blasting him for signing melo are proven to be wrong (as they would have let him walk and we would have been left with nothing).
If he can move Rose for an asset thats also a good move. Next few months should be interesting.
That is not a good way to assess giving Melo a contract. It assumes having Melo didn't cost us anything else and after 2.5 years of directionless mediocrity getting another player somehow gives us back the time and any other opportunities we would have had if let Melo walk.
This isn't even about Melo, but when you commit that much money to a player and give him an NTC you are also committing to bringing other players to play with him. This led to Rose trade and we lost Rolo and Grant. Ask yourself if we would have lost them if Melo wasnt here. Plus the amount of money we have Melo would have gone towards other players we would have acquired in FA so you would have add back their value as well when assessing the contact we gave Melo and the NTC.
To take an event and judge its success or failure without looking at the context or any other variables directly impacted by that event is a poor assessment of its value.
meloshouldgo wrote:smackeddog wrote:I think phil has done an okay job, given the circumstances he inherited. Sometimes things just don't work out- look at SVG, he was praised last year, then this year, with the same roster, it's all gone wrong- doesn't mean he's suddenly become an idiot. I would have preferred Vogel or Thibs as coach, but then again, both of their teams are struggling too.
A big decider for Phil's legacy is what happens with Melo- if he trades him for some good assets, then all those people blasting him for signing melo are proven to be wrong (as they would have let him walk and we would have been left with nothing).
If he can move Rose for an asset thats also a good move. Next few months should be interesting.
That is not a good way to assess giving Melo a contract. It assumes having Melo didn't cost us anything else and after 2.5 years of directionless mediocrity getting another player somehow gives us back the time and any other opportunities we would have had if let Melo walk.
This isn't even about Melo, but when you commit that much money to a player and give him an NTC you are also committing to bringing other players to play with him. This led to Rose trade and we lost Rolo and Grant. Ask yourself if we would have lost them if Melo wasnt here. Plus the amount of money we have Melo would have gone towards other players we would have acquired in FA so you would have add back their value as well when assessing the contact we gave Melo and the NTC.
To take an event and judge its success or failure without looking at the context or any other variables directly impacted by that event is a poor assessment of its value.
Exactly. He's gotta get us assets in a Melo trade that are superior to what a smart GM could get out of 25 mil in cap space signings. Even then, we still lost 2 1/2 years.
Phil Jackson, Donnie Walsh and Isiah Thomas are equal as GM in NY .. LOSERS!
Each one came into NY making huge drastic changes within their first season to create a roster n coaching staff worst than the one they received.
Bonn1997 wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:smackeddog wrote:I think phil has done an okay job, given the circumstances he inherited. Sometimes things just don't work out- look at SVG, he was praised last year, then this year, with the same roster, it's all gone wrong- doesn't mean he's suddenly become an idiot. I would have preferred Vogel or Thibs as coach, but then again, both of their teams are struggling too.
A big decider for Phil's legacy is what happens with Melo- if he trades him for some good assets, then all those people blasting him for signing melo are proven to be wrong (as they would have let him walk and we would have been left with nothing).
If he can move Rose for an asset thats also a good move. Next few months should be interesting.
That is not a good way to assess giving Melo a contract. It assumes having Melo didn't cost us anything else and after 2.5 years of directionless mediocrity getting another player somehow gives us back the time and any other opportunities we would have had if let Melo walk.
This isn't even about Melo, but when you commit that much money to a player and give him an NTC you are also committing to bringing other players to play with him. This led to Rose trade and we lost Rolo and Grant. Ask yourself if we would have lost them if Melo wasnt here. Plus the amount of money we have Melo would have gone towards other players we would have acquired in FA so you would have add back their value as well when assessing the contact we gave Melo and the NTC.
To take an event and judge its success or failure without looking at the context or any other variables directly impacted by that event is a poor assessment of its value.
Exactly. He's gotta get us assets in a Melo trade that are superior to what a smart GM could get out of 25 mil in cap space signings. Even then, we still lost 2 1/2 years.
With all these moves phil has made, do you trust him going further to get it right. No trade has panned out, drafts picks look good at first and then the player runs into a wall, FA signing have not worked out.
You sign a player and give him a NTC, then try to trade him 2 yrs into a 5 yr deal. You kill IT for spending wildly without thought, and phil gets a pass for making emotional thoughtless trades, and signing FA that get traded or walk 6 months later..
How can you have confidence in this man
No, our future isnt completely mortgaged.
knicks1248 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:smackeddog wrote:I think phil has done an okay job, given the circumstances he inherited. Sometimes things just don't work out- look at SVG, he was praised last year, then this year, with the same roster, it's all gone wrong- doesn't mean he's suddenly become an idiot. I would have preferred Vogel or Thibs as coach, but then again, both of their teams are struggling too.
A big decider for Phil's legacy is what happens with Melo- if he trades him for some good assets, then all those people blasting him for signing melo are proven to be wrong (as they would have let him walk and we would have been left with nothing).
If he can move Rose for an asset thats also a good move. Next few months should be interesting.
That is not a good way to assess giving Melo a contract. It assumes having Melo didn't cost us anything else and after 2.5 years of directionless mediocrity getting another player somehow gives us back the time and any other opportunities we would have had if let Melo walk.
This isn't even about Melo, but when you commit that much money to a player and give him an NTC you are also committing to bringing other players to play with him. This led to Rose trade and we lost Rolo and Grant. Ask yourself if we would have lost them if Melo wasnt here. Plus the amount of money we have Melo would have gone towards other players we would have acquired in FA so you would have add back their value as well when assessing the contact we gave Melo and the NTC.
To take an event and judge its success or failure without looking at the context or any other variables directly impacted by that event is a poor assessment of its value.
Exactly. He's gotta get us assets in a Melo trade that are superior to what a smart GM could get out of 25 mil in cap space signings. Even then, we still lost 2 1/2 years.
With all these moves phil has made, do you trust him going further to get it right. No trade has panned out, drafts picks look good at first and then the player runs into a wall, FA signing have not worked out.
You sign a player and give him a NTC, then try to trade him 2 yrs into a 5 yr deal. You kill IT for spending wildly without thought, and phil gets a pass for making emotional thoughtless trades, and signing FA that get traded or walk 6 months later..
How can you have confidence in this man
Yes I do.
All the trades Phil has made were with the purpose of putting players around Melo. He had to do that to see if Melo was indeed capable of delivering on his promise or as some of us suspected all along capable of nothing such. Even then in those trades he didn't mortgage or future and trade away or draft picks.
Personally I don't think he should have rehired Melo and traded away Rolo. Those moves I have criticized him for and will continue to do so. The criticism wasn't based on results it was based on expectations at the time and am evaluation of alternatives.
As for draft picks hitting a wall I don't see that as valid criticism. You have minimal information to make a decision and you do it based on what you see in terms of potential. I think he made fantastic draft picks.
Overall I think he is trying to deliver us out of the mess we have been in, but having an albatross like Melo around his neck hasn't helped. And that at least was his own doing
the major difference here is Isiah is a fucking moron... I feel I have a little hope with Phil still. Not much left, but some.
I thought often times Isiah botched his picks. Sometimes he got a good player, but there was always a better player available. Phil pull young talent out of thin air. I am much happier with this crotchy old geezer than with the used car salesman
GustavBahler wrote:No, our future isnt completely mortgaged.
what future, we have no future other than KP. phils direction changes every six months. Just because he doesn't mortgage the future, doesn't give him a pass. We are going in circles.
knicks1248 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No, our future isnt completely mortgaged.
what future, we have no future other than KP. phils direction changes every six months. Just because he doesn't mortgage the future, doesn't give him a pass. We are going in circles.
Your really adamant about Phil, aren't you?
Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No, our future isnt completely mortgaged.
what future, we have no future other than KP. phils direction changes every six months. Just because he doesn't mortgage the future, doesn't give him a pass. We are going in circles.
Your really adamant about Phil, aren't you?
while I'm not anti-Phil (yet), he really hasn't done much to inspire confidence
knicks1248 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No, our future isnt completely mortgaged.
what future, we have no future other than KP. phils direction changes every six months. Just because he doesn't mortgage the future, doesn't give him a pass. We are going in circles.
As far as I know we have some cap room, our picks arent spoken for into the next century, we have some young players who are showing something, have more rooks playing than anyone else. Not a team comprised almost entirely of broken down, overpaid vets, who cant stay on the court.
After reading all the criticism I have directed at Phil at times (which Im assuming you've read) do you really want to accuse me of giving him a pass? Really?
SupremeCommander wrote:Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No, our future isnt completely mortgaged.
what future, we have no future other than KP. phils direction changes every six months. Just because he doesn't mortgage the future, doesn't give him a pass. We are going in circles.
Your really adamant about Phil, aren't you?
while I'm anti-Phil (yet), he really hasn't done much to inspire confidence
Nothing to inspire confidence, or despair.
There has been one content for 7 years regarding knick dysfunction. Its been Melo. Talented nice guy, I don't hate him at all.
He is a great elite scoring talent that perhaps can really help another team, but as a teams best player he does not possess a rounded diverse skill set to be the alpha player that creates a better team play.
I don't fault Phil for resigning him for many reasons, and I don't blame him for wanting a Trade clause. WE tried, he tried, its not working.
Move on. I think Melo is now taking up space.
GustavBahler wrote:knicks1248 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No, our future isnt completely mortgaged.
what future, we have no future other than KP. phils direction changes every six months. Just because he doesn't mortgage the future, doesn't give him a pass. We are going in circles.
As far as I know we have some cap room, our picks arent spoken for into the next century, we have some young players who are showing something, have more rooks playing than anyone else. Not a team comprised almost entirely of broken down, overpaid vets, who cant stay on the court.
After reading all the criticism I have directed at Phil at times (which Im assuming you've read) do you really want to accuse me of giving him a pass? Really?
Im not anti phil or I T, im just simply not going to ignore the fact that at the end of the day, the team still sucks under his leadership...
cap space means nothing if you can get a decent player to sign on (and we have seen this), draft picks mean nothing if you draft a dud (70% chance of that happening).
You have to make smart trades to build..
The more important issue is this...
Isiah destroyed all credibility the franchise had. Between hiring and firing, Wilkens, the Larry brown fiasco, allowing Marburg and his crew to terrorize the garden and bringing in washed up players and trading anyone useful players for guys are on atrocious contracts.
The Anucha Brown fiasco made the team a nationally joke.
Players like stability and trying to do your job at the helm of the most disfuncTional organization in all of sports is downright impossible.
I actually love the moves that phil makes, im just really piss that he doesn't give it more than a few months before he scraps the very solid move he made.
