Knicks · Is phil worse than Isaih (page 2)
Willy
Kuz
Galloway
Thomas (First time around)
Holiday
KOQ
KP
He made some mistakes for sure. But, again not his fault his draft pick was moved by Grunwald, in one of the worst moves we have ever seen. He also didn't have the benefit of a draft pick in because of Isiah. You have to be asshole not to protect a pick.
Our lowest win percentage in history was under Isiah
MS wrote:Phils great moves
Willy
Kuz
Galloway
Thomas (First time around)
Holiday
KOQ
KPHe made some mistakes for sure. But, again not his fault his draft pick was moved by Grunwald, in one of the worst moves we have ever seen. He also didn't have the benefit of a draft pick in because of Isiah. You have to be asshole not to protect a pick.
Our lowest win percentage in history was under Isiah
Calling any of those moves great outside of KP is a stretch. They're solid personnel moves. Galloway left. Lance is signed for too much money. Knicks have good scouting in Spain, thankfully
It's a fair question. He answers it with his moves to finish the season. Do we retain Rose for absurd money? Do we give more time to our young guys? Do we tank properly or win meaningless games and come out of the draft with Jordan Hill instead of Stephen Curry?
MS wrote:This thread is a joke.Isiah was one of the worst GMs in NBA history.
Jerome James on a 5 year deal at 30MM - played on season
Eddy Curry - worst trade in NBA history, 2 number 1 picks that Noah and Aldrige for a guy that was to fat and stupid to contribute
Jamal Crawford - 37MM for Jerome Williams to overpay a 6th man
Channing Frye - over Granger and Bynum
Kurt Thomas - useful role player for QRich and his 58MM deal for the rights to Nate Robinson
Marty Collins - over Rondo and Lowry
Nazar Mohomed - expiring deal for the 29th pick, and Malik Rose. 9MM in salary for two years for a pick that could be bought for 3MM
Jared Jefferies - full mid level
Moving Ariza for Steve FrancisTrading a draft selection for mo taylor
Quite possibly the dumbest gm in the history of the league (outside of Billy King)
Thank you, finally someone who remembers the actual Isiah era and filth that he dragged us through. All because he wanted a backcourt of Marbury and Stevie Franchise. One dumb starfukk outdone in its stupidity only by the next. Two first round picks for Eddy Curry - and we are comparing Phil to this number 1 entry in the dumb@$$ HOF?
MS wrote:Phils great moves
Willy
Kuz
Galloway
Thomas (First time around)
Holiday
KOQ
KPHe made some mistakes for sure. But, again not his fault his draft pick was moved by Grunwald, in one of the worst moves we have ever seen. He also didn't have the benefit of a draft pick in because of Isiah. You have to be asshole not to protect a pick.
Our lowest win percentage in history was under Isiah
Alternative facts?
Knixkik wrote:Phil has made short term risks without mortgaging the future. And he's hit it out of the park in the draft. There's no comparison. And he didn't have a 2014 or 2016 pick to work with.
phil gets a lot of crap but he had basically no picks.Add @ top 10 picks to this team they are better
crzymdups wrote:MS wrote:Phils great moves
Willy
Kuz
Galloway
Thomas (First time around)
Holiday
KOQ
KPHe made some mistakes for sure. But, again not his fault his draft pick was moved by Grunwald, in one of the worst moves we have ever seen. He also didn't have the benefit of a draft pick in because of Isiah. You have to be asshole not to protect a pick.
Our lowest win percentage in history was under Isiah
Calling any of those moves great outside of KP is a stretch. They're solid personnel moves. Galloway left. Lance is signed for too much money. Knicks have good scouting in Spain, thankfully
At a minimum solid picks. A number were down right pulling rabbits out of a hat. Have to cut slack on lance because of his injuries.
Ms destroyed the premis of the original post though
And FWIW in the real world great companies aren't built by monotonic happy predictable growth. That's a fantasy. There's a lot of tearing down and re-inventing oneself. Once that company becomes great then things are a little happier, not before.
Bonn1997 wrote:The only reason Isiah didn't hand out as many bad contracts is because he never had any cap room because of his trades acquiring guys with bad contracts. When he did have cap space his big signing was Jerome James for big money (at the time) based off a solid 11 game playoff run.Welpee wrote:I say no for two reasons: 1) Phil didn't toss our future in the toilet trading picks; 2) drafting KP trumps any draft pick or trade Isiah made.
At this point it's too early to say. But two things: Isiah did also acquire a few 1st round picks and he didn't hand out as many large, bad contracts as Phil has. If KP becomes a superstar, yes, that trumps anything Isiah did though.
NO sexual harrassment case.
Draft picks here. KP is here. WillyHG is here. I like Kuz, Holiday and Baker too. They tried to appease Melo and go for it. ITs a bad mix. Rose and Melo are ball stoppers. Noah cannot shoot the ball. I would bet anyone on this forum can outshoot him from the charity stripe.
ISiah's moves handcuffed the team for years to come.
Phil has this team with mostly movable contracts and all their picks.
Move Melo for picks and a young promising player. Move Rose for cap space and maybe a future pick. Keep scouting Europe and get players that play team ball and can do everything.
It takes time to undo years of crap. Phil is on the right path.
MS wrote:Marty Collins - over Rondo and LowryI think you mean Renaldo Balkman over those two. Collins was the next to last pick in the first round. Even though hindsight is 20/20, Paul Millsap was still on the board when Collins was picked.
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Hell no.I agree. Our current worse case scenario isn't has bad as what Isiah did to the franchise.NO sexual harrassment case.
Draft picks here. KP is here. WillyHG is here. I like Kuz, Holiday and Baker too. They tried to appease Melo and go for it. ITs a bad mix. Rose and Melo are ball stoppers. Noah cannot shoot the ball. I would bet anyone on this forum can outshoot him from the charity stripe.
ISiah's moves handcuffed the team for years to come.
Phil has this team with mostly movable contracts and all their picks.
Move Melo for picks and a young promising player. Move Rose for cap space and maybe a future pick. Keep scouting Europe and get players that play team ball and can do everything.It takes time to undo years of crap. Phil is on the right path.
knicks1248 wrote:Phil may be worse,Thomas atleast made the playoffs, and would have prob had more success if the Houston & marbury back court came together, but he came into salary cap hell, and started making lateral trades Like Tim Thomas for KVH, the Curry signing, and the Francis trade killed him, the law suit put him 6 feet deep.
Phil dumps players, like taking out the trash, 60+ players in 3 1/2 years. Then he had the nerve to call walsh's roster CLUMSY..
He has this Rosen character like a fckng ventriloquist on his lap...Phil is really becoming all the way wack and just lame.
It's not even close. Phil actually put together a team with more than enough talent to be winning games but just don't want it enough and we have all of our draft picks which is the most valuable thing to have for a team. We're not winning games and you can put some of that on Phil but all you have to do is watch these guys play and it's easy to see more of the blame is on the players then anything else. D.Rose's defense is worse then Melo's and that's really saying something.
Knixkik wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Phil has made short term risks without mortgaging the future. And he's hit it out of the park in the draft. There's no comparison. And he didn't have a 2014 or 2016 pick to work with.short term risk that has resulted in 3 and 1/2 brutal seasons, going on 4, and KP is starting to look like a taller Gallo
The criticism of KP is mind boggling. The guy is 21 years old. No other fan base would be this impatient.
He's a professional NBA player so he deserves blame for his own play. He's only 21 but he's obviously taken a step back from his rookie season which i'm sure he'll fix but until he does he deserves blame. Now of course we have a lot of people that over react on here and take it much further then it needs to go and those people do it with everything Knicks but he does deserve blame for his own play.
Second quarter, Phil is worse than Isiah. Emotion fuels anger. Media has its audience.
One more time. Layden was a neophyte and I doubt had the power to take on Dice contract. It was a starphuch, but one that had purpose. It didn't work.
With little draft picks, Layden treaded water until the team was boring but was still a year from clearing the decks of bad contracts. Ewing had forced his hand and some bad trades were made.
They were compounded by the lack of picks and yoots to develop.
Isiah took that and instead being patient, leveraged it up. Marbury and Eddy? Eddy cost us Lamarcus and Noah. In prime.
2007: Isiah had leveraged his picks and this was the result:
23-59.
The good news is you suck, you get a good draft pick. Nope, not Isiahs's knicks! Who makes a trade, does not protect the picks, and DOES WORSE FOR IT? Isiah.
Drama? Phil's public bashing is about ball movement. Are you phil haters that thin skinned? In that CBS interview he also complimented Melo.
The Charley Rosen proxy? Is he the mouthpiece of Phil? Maybe. ANd if so, is he wrong? or is it insensitive? Phil is to "Blame" to have given him the NTC. In my mind Melo has been what he always has been and does his thing. If we want him gone, this is what has to happen. Melo has to want to leave.
Back to Isiah:
Often, perhaps you have space for free agency. Nope, not Isiah's knicks. Here is the payroll TEN YEARS AGO. Look at the disparity of the knicks and EVERYONE ELSE!!!!!!
Team Payrolls 2007-2008
Team Payroll
1. New York Knicks $117,024,192
2. Dallas Mavericks $88,531,846
3. Los Angeles Lakers $77,099,949
4. Portland Trailblazers $75,026,386
5. Philadelphia 76ers $69,140,163
6. Minnesota Timberwolves $66,788,931
7. Phoenix Suns $65,399,240
8. Denver Nuggets $65,370,484
9. San Antonio Spurs $65,327,646
10. Golden State Warriors $64,985,588
11. New Jersey Nets $64,372,808
12. Sacramento Kings $63,975,244
13. Houston Rockets $63,837,566
14. Miami Heat $63,786,777
15. Milwaukee Bucks $63,498,518
16. Indiana Pacers $63,118,965
17. Cleveland Cavaliers $62,992,729
18. Washington Wizards $62,733,705
19. Boston Celtics $62,622,805
20. Utah Jazz $61,930,567
21. Memphis Grizzlies $61,773,025
22. Orlando Magic $61,013,311
23. Los Angeles Clippers $59,057,690
24. Detroit Pistons $58,767,602
25. Seattle Sonics $56,931,964
26. Chicago Bulls $54,754,904
27. New Orleans Hornets $53,711,107
28. Toronto Raptors $50,581,694
29. Atlanta Hawks $48,456,234
30. Charlotte Bobcats $41,689,161
I think our payroll this year at 103mm is 12th in the league. Our payroll that year was 32% higher than the next team. Look at how fast the payroll drops after the top 4. Bigly!!!!
This was perhaps the worst season of any team in the history of professional sports regarding the ratio of payroll to wins, and the deviation from the mean of the rest of the league!!!!!
Any anger toward Phil in the current state cannot even scratch the surface. Phil's rebuild yielded KP6. Last year we paid in arrears for Bargnani. While we are far from happy, one cannot even begin to compare the depths of Isiah on court performance as president and GM of the knicks to what Phil has done in his third season.
newyorker4ever wrote:Has he taken a step back from his rookie year, or just had a bad stretch of games partially due to injury? People forget, KP hit a wall last year too around the time Rambis took over. I totally disagree that he has taken a step back. Stats don't reflect that nor does his play unless you were in a cave and only watched him the past few weeks. Some Knick fans evidently have the world's shortest memories.Knixkik wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Phil has made short term risks without mortgaging the future. And he's hit it out of the park in the draft. There's no comparison. And he didn't have a 2014 or 2016 pick to work with.short term risk that has resulted in 3 and 1/2 brutal seasons, going on 4, and KP is starting to look like a taller Gallo
The criticism of KP is mind boggling. The guy is 21 years old. No other fan base would be this impatient.
He's a professional NBA player so he deserves blame for his own play. He's only 21 but he's obviously taken a step back from his rookie season which i'm sure he'll fix but until he does he deserves blame. Now of course we have a lot of people that over react on here and take it much further then it needs to go and those people do it with everything Knicks but he does deserve blame for his own play.
meloshouldgo wrote:MS wrote:This thread is a joke.Isiah was one of the worst GMs in NBA history.
Jerome James on a 5 year deal at 30MM - played on season
Eddy Curry - worst trade in NBA history, 2 number 1 picks that Noah and Aldrige for a guy that was to fat and stupid to contribute
Jamal Crawford - 37MM for Jerome Williams to overpay a 6th man
Channing Frye - over Granger and Bynum
Kurt Thomas - useful role player for QRich and his 58MM deal for the rights to Nate Robinson
Marty Collins - over Rondo and Lowry
Nazar Mohomed - expiring deal for the 29th pick, and Malik Rose. 9MM in salary for two years for a pick that could be bought for 3MM
Jared Jefferies - full mid level
Moving Ariza for Steve FrancisTrading a draft selection for mo taylor
Quite possibly the dumbest gm in the history of the league (outside of Billy King)
Thank you, finally someone who remembers the actual Isiah era and filth that he dragged us through. All because he wanted a backcourt of Marbury and Stevie Franchise. One dumb starfukk outdone in its stupidity only by the next. Two first round picks for Eddy Curry - and we are comparing Phil to this number 1 entry in the dumb@$$ HOF?
A lot of I T moves were win now moves, maybe some of you forgot the roster inherited and trust me, I hated Thomas. Phil turned a 54 win team into a 17 win team in one yr, he started rebuilding 2 season ago, and still has nothing but KP and willy to show for it.
They are running Neck and Neck in my book, they just have different ways of turning the franchise into a completely laughing stock
knicks1248 wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:MS wrote:This thread is a joke.Isiah was one of the worst GMs in NBA history.
Jerome James on a 5 year deal at 30MM - played on season
Eddy Curry - worst trade in NBA history, 2 number 1 picks that Noah and Aldrige for a guy that was to fat and stupid to contribute
Jamal Crawford - 37MM for Jerome Williams to overpay a 6th man
Channing Frye - over Granger and Bynum
Kurt Thomas - useful role player for QRich and his 58MM deal for the rights to Nate Robinson
Marty Collins - over Rondo and Lowry
Nazar Mohomed - expiring deal for the 29th pick, and Malik Rose. 9MM in salary for two years for a pick that could be bought for 3MM
Jared Jefferies - full mid level
Moving Ariza for Steve FrancisTrading a draft selection for mo taylor
Quite possibly the dumbest gm in the history of the league (outside of Billy King)
Thank you, finally someone who remembers the actual Isiah era and filth that he dragged us through. All because he wanted a backcourt of Marbury and Stevie Franchise. One dumb starfukk outdone in its stupidity only by the next. Two first round picks for Eddy Curry - and we are comparing Phil to this number 1 entry in the dumb@$$ HOF?
A lot of I T moves were win now moves, maybe some of you forgot the roster inherited and trust me, I hated Thomas. Phil turned a 54 win team into a 17 win team in one yr, he started rebuilding 2 season ago, and still has nothing but KP and willy to show for it.They are running Neck and Neck in my book, they just have different ways of turning the franchise into a completely laughing stock
There was a season in between. The 54 win team was not sustainable, in fact, it crumbled in second round to Boston.
If thats your benchmark, your just distraught over the current state. That's fine, its your prerogative, but its a bit irrational.
Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:The only reason Isiah didn't hand out as many bad contracts is because he never had any cap room because of his trades acquiring guys with bad contracts. When he did have cap space his big signing was Jerome James for big money (at the time) based off a solid 11 game playoff run.Welpee wrote:I say no for two reasons: 1) Phil didn't toss our future in the toilet trading picks; 2) drafting KP trumps any draft pick or trade Isiah made.
At this point it's too early to say. But two things: Isiah did also acquire a few 1st round picks and he didn't hand out as many large, bad contracts as Phil has. If KP becomes a superstar, yes, that trumps anything Isiah did though.
Agreed. Phil had tons of cap space but not many picks. Isiah had picks but not much cap space. My point was people seem to be saying the deck was stacked against Phil since he didn't have picks but that's probably just cancelled out with Isiah not having cap space.
knicks1248 wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:MS wrote:This thread is a joke.
Q
Isiah was one of the worst GMs in NBA history.Jerome James on a 5 year deal at 30MM - played on season
Eddy Curry - worst trade in NBA history, 2 number 1 picks that Noah and Aldrige for a guy that was to fat and stupid to contribute
Jamal Crawford - 37MM for Jerome Williams to overpay a 6th man
Channing Frye - over Granger and Bynum
Kurt Thomas - useful role player for QRich and his 58MM deal for the rights to Nate Robinson
Marty Collins - over Rondo and Lowry
Nazar Mohomed - expiring deal for the 29th pick, and Malik Rose. 9MM in salary for two years for a pick that could be bought for 3MM
Jared Jefferies - full mid level
Moving Ariza for Steve FrancisTrading a draft selection for mo taylor
Quite possibly the dumbest gm in the history of the league (outside of Billy King)
Thank you, finally someone who remembers the actual Isiah era and filth that he dragged us through. All because he wanted a backcourt of Marbury and Stevie Franchise. One dumb starfukk outdone in its stupidity only by the next. Two first round picks for Eddy Curry - and we are comparing Phil to this number 1 entry in the dumb@$$ HOF?
A lot of I T moves were win now moves, maybe some of you forgot the roster inherited and trust me, I hated Thomas. Phil turned a 54 win team into a 17 win team in one yr, he started rebuilding 2 season ago, and still has nothing but KP and willy to show for it.They are running Neck and Neck in my book, they just have different ways of turning the franchise into a completely laughing stock
That's interesting, I thought he inherited a 37 win team with Bargnani, Chandler (who wanted out) and Felton. Along with a broken ass Kmart and Amare.