Knicks · Kyrie Traded To Celtics (page 5)
Bonn1997 wrote:Something like that is probably accurate. Id try for them to include their own pick which will be high but better than nothingJmpasq wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'd say Thomas is a notch above Kyrie but you're right that he might be damaged goods. Thomas is the better scorer. He does more damage from 3s and the FT line. He even got a bunch of MVP votes. Crowder is a very good player too. If Isaiah is healthy, this a tremendous steal for Cleveland.disagree, though I love Thomas. Bottom line is IT is small. You can negate his awesomeness by putting someone big on him. I think three's a good chance Frank might be able to slow IT down this year. I don't think that's realistic against Kyrie. Plus, IT is going for his big contract at age 30
Were IT's offensive skills negated in more games than Kyrie's? I doubt it.
Yeah, he'll get a huge contract 2 years before Kyrie does. That's somewhat worrisome but as long as Lebron stays in Cleveland, it's not that big a deal since they're not looking for cap space.
Crowder is the exact type of combo forward you want. He is going to be lights out next to Lebron
yeah I'd do Crowder, Frye, and Shumpert for Melo. Maybe you can get them to include picks but I'd do this just for the Melo - Crowder swap.
Why not add melo to the mix?
The thing I ask is Gilbert motivated for a second chip if Lebron won't stay, and the tax bill that comes with that.
Kyrie off the books saves him a lot of money. If Lebron won't commit, both he and Gilbert can make the next "Decision" far more graceful. Cav's can look to the future and Lebron likely won't repeat mistakes made in the past.
Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Wow, the Knicks didn't overpay for a big name. They didn't give up picks and prospects for someone who would help in the short-term. This Mills/Perry regime appears to be different.Or they just didn't have the assets, which I think is more likely. Don't be surprised to see them do another boneheaded decision in 2018...like being the only team willing to offer Isiah Thomas max.
Melo, KP, Willy, Ntilikina, all our picks? I think we could have gotten the deal done if we were going to be stupid unless Cleveland was obsessed with getting Isaiah.
A package consisting of those assets would be intriguing from a value perspective but CLE is moreso concerned with competing with the Warriors. I'm not sure any combination of the aforementioned could yield that end whereas an arguement could be made for that Celtics package.
Welpee wrote:I think Melo is off the table for Cleveland especially if Wade is coming after he gets his buy out.
Here's the interesting thing about the Cavs getting the Brooklyn pick. They need more wing defense and they need rim protection.
Houston wants Melo but only wants to dump Ryan Anderson
Cleveland needs guys like C Jordan and combo guard PG/SG Beverley of the Clippers. That would be far more useful than Melo
Clippers might take in a bad contract like Ryan Anderson and give up both Beverley and Jordan if the bounty is high enough. It's not like they are going to compete with their situation. Blake Griffin isn't exactly a model of health and if he gets hurt, which might be likely, they'll probably look to try to rebuild around him and move everything else.
The base problem was no SINGLE franchise would offer enough to any other team to take in Ryan Anderson's contract, however if TWO TEAMS split the cost and both sent asset to a Clippers, maybe they'd do it.
Not saying a four team deal is possible, but the East/West split is interesting ( i.e. teams are hesitant to trade in a situation where a team in the same conference might benefit. The variable amount and number of non guaranteed contracts by Houston is also interesting here.
Cleveland is pushing this one last season, they know this is it. Going after Jordan and Beverley is basically doubling down. That Nets pick could be anything, but maybe the Clippers would assume that risk because their situation is more dire.
IF, a huge IF, the Warriors lose Draymond Green and one of Curry or Durant to injury, and the Cavs got Jordan and Beverly, and managed to shed Tristan Thompson somehow, maybe that's worth that Brooklyn pick to them.
NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Wow, the Knicks didn't overpay for a big name. They didn't give up picks and prospects for someone who would help in the short-term. This Mills/Perry regime appears to be different.Or they just didn't have the assets, which I think is more likely. Don't be surprised to see them do another boneheaded decision in 2018...like being the only team willing to offer Isiah Thomas max.
Melo, KP, Willy, Ntilikina, all our picks? I think we could have gotten the deal done if we were going to be stupid unless Cleveland was obsessed with getting Isaiah.A package consisting of those assets would be intriguing from a value perspective but CLE is moreso concerned with competing with the Warriors. I'm not sure any combination of the aforementioned could yield that end whereas an arguement could be made for that Celtics package.
I think they're half concerned with winning now and half with rebuilding as a backup. Even if they wanted to win now, they probably could trade those assets for great players with fewer questions marks than Isaiah. But Isaiah (if healthy) does fit a need for them much better than KP and Willy do. I'll give you that.
Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Wow, the Knicks didn't overpay for a big name. They didn't give up picks and prospects for someone who would help in the short-term. This Mills/Perry regime appears to be different.Or they just didn't have the assets, which I think is more likely. Don't be surprised to see them do another boneheaded decision in 2018...like being the only team willing to offer Isiah Thomas max.
Melo, KP, Willy, Ntilikina, all our picks? I think we could have gotten the deal done if we were going to be stupid unless Cleveland was obsessed with getting Isaiah.A package consisting of those assets would be intriguing from a value perspective but CLE is moreso concerned with competing with the Warriors. I'm not sure any combination of the aforementioned could yield that end whereas an arguement could be made for that Celtics package.
I think they're half concerned with winning now and half with rebuilding as a backup. Even if they wanted to win now, they probably could trade those assets for great players with fewer questions marks than Isaiah. But Isaiah (if healthy) does fit a need for them much better than KP and Willy do. I'll give you that.
That's the thing though: the BOS package allows them to remain competitive AND maintain an eye on the future (as "a backup"). The Knicks could only offer a package that accomodates the latter condition, in my opinion. We could field a package that would've had competed with what the Cavs got in terms of value but I doubt we'd be able to provide one that fits their agenda.
Vmart wrote:I think Cavs are going to call off the trade. I can't see IT passing his physical.
The $25 million they'd be saving in luxury tax payments might beg to differ. And right now, I think that means a great deal to their ownership group. Besides, the Celtics appropriately overpaid to mitigate the risk posed by IT. The bluster we're hearing is probably just posturing to get more assets but I think the deal will be approved in its current form.
NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Wow, the Knicks didn't overpay for a big name. They didn't give up picks and prospects for someone who would help in the short-term. This Mills/Perry regime appears to be different.Or they just didn't have the assets, which I think is more likely. Don't be surprised to see them do another boneheaded decision in 2018...like being the only team willing to offer Isiah Thomas max.
Melo, KP, Willy, Ntilikina, all our picks? I think we could have gotten the deal done if we were going to be stupid unless Cleveland was obsessed with getting Isaiah.A package consisting of those assets would be intriguing from a value perspective but CLE is moreso concerned with competing with the Warriors. I'm not sure any combination of the aforementioned could yield that end whereas an arguement could be made for that Celtics package.
I think they're half concerned with winning now and half with rebuilding as a backup. Even if they wanted to win now, they probably could trade those assets for great players with fewer questions marks than Isaiah. But Isaiah (if healthy) does fit a need for them much better than KP and Willy do. I'll give you that.That's the thing though: the BOS package allows them to remain competitive AND maintain an eye on the future (as "a backup"). The Knicks could only offer a package that accomodates the latter condition, in my opinion. We could field a package that would've had competed with what the Cavs got in terms of value but I doubt we'd be able to provide one that fits their agenda.
Maybe. For next year, the Boston deal is high upside, high downside. If Isaiah is injured, the deal doesn't help them at all that year (though the pick is nice for the future). Then the trade in terms of 2017-18 becomes a comparison of Zizic and Crowder vs. KP, Willy, Melo, and Ntilikina.
Nalod wrote:Thomas had yet to be cleared for running yet. Why is Clev so under informed about his condition, even knicks1248 could see this problem!
The answer is they are not underinformed at all. They are trying to power play for another asset after the deal had been agreed upon.
Cavs GM Koby Altman needs a "win" from a perception standpoint. He's new and he wants to establish his ability to get something more because LBJ is leaving and Irving is gone one way or another and there are some super lean years ahead. He also knows the Cavs are cap and roster locked and asset bare since LBJ aka LeGM ran this team into the ground asset wise. There are no other avenues to get assets back.
Michele Roberts took over the NBAPA from Billy Hunter. To prove she was "tough", she held against a "smoothing option" against a rising cap. What was the end fallout? A top heavy league now, fewer playoff games and thus a lower projected cap each year forward and bad contracts no one can move because teams are now cap locked. Great for a few fringe players for an offseason or two, but bad long term for all players in general. But she had to "look tough"
As different times, Bill Parcells, Billy Beane, Bill Belichick, Daryl Morey, even Brian Cashman have all said it. Doing your job and saving your job can often be different things. To "Do your job" you can't worry about saving it.
Altman doesn't care that this move will blackmark the Cavs to all other teams. It's not just the thinly veiled play here, it's the way the press is releasing Thomas Versus Celtics rhetoric, it's not coming from nowhere. The Cavs will get a rep that they won't honor their word. There were rumors the Yankees were looking at some Padres assets near this deadline. Guys like Brad Hand, Trevor Cahill, etc. But guess what? The Padres GM started to get a rep for shading info on his trades and now lots of teams won't trust him.
Where this will hurt the Cavs is around the draft. I.E. if you draft this player, then I'll draft that player later in the round and send you that plus Picks X and Y for your player and this player ,etc. There are some deals contingent on basic good faith. And now the Cavs have none.
Your word has to mean something. When no one trusts you in a job like GM, you are out of a job, you might not be fired yet, but you are out of a job in principle.
TripleThreat wrote:Nalod wrote:Thomas had yet to be cleared for running yet. Why is Clev so under informed about his condition, even knicks1248 could see this problem!
The answer is they are not underinformed at all. They are trying to power play for another asset after the deal had been agreed upon.Cavs GM Koby Altman needs a "win" from a perception standpoint. He's new and he wants to establish his ability to get something more because LBJ is leaving and Irving is gone one way or another and there are some super lean years ahead. He also knows the Cavs are cap and roster locked and asset bare since LBJ aka LeGM ran this team into the ground asset wise. There are no other avenues to get assets back.
Michele Roberts took over the NBAPA from Billy Hunter. To prove she was "tough", she held against a "smoothing option" against a rising cap. What was the end fallout? A top heavy league now, fewer playoff games and thus a lower projected cap each year forward and bad contracts no one can move because teams are now cap locked. Great for a few fringe players for an offseason or two, but bad long term for all players in general. But she had to "look tough"
As different times, Bill Parcells, Billy Beane, Bill Belichick, Daryl Morey, even Brian Cashman have all said it. Doing your job and saving your job can often be different things. To "Do your job" you can't worry about saving it.
Altman doesn't care that this move will blackmark the Cavs to all other teams. It's not just the thinly veiled play here, it's the way the press is releasing Thomas Versus Celtics rhetoric, it's not coming from nowhere. The Cavs will get a rep that they won't honor their word. There were rumors the Yankees were looking at some Padres assets near this deadline. Guys like Brad Hand, Trevor Cahill, etc. But guess what? The Padres GM started to get a rep for shading info on his trades and now lots of teams won't trust him.
Where this will hurt the Cavs is around the draft. I.E. if you draft this player, then I'll draft that player later in the round and send you that plus Picks X and Y for your player and this player ,etc. There are some deals contingent on basic good faith. And now the Cavs have none.
Your word has to mean something. When no one trusts you in a job like GM, you are out of a job, you might not be fired yet, but you are out of a job in principle.
LOL, thank you for setting me straight!!!! What about the other part of my sentance???
StarksEwing1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Nobody would ever give us a lottery pick for Melo at this stage of his career. Id be very happy with Crowder. Shumpert does get injured quite a bit but can still defend a little.NardDogNation wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Wonder if Melo likes what he sees in Cleveland now? Maybe move Love to a third team for something or someone the Knicks could use.I was wondering the same thing. I'd do Frye, Shumpert and that Nets' pick for Melo and O'Quinn.
I doubt they would do the nets pick. That's their life line if this whole thing eventually blows up. I could see Crowder, shumpert, Frye and osman for melo and o'quinn though.
I wouldn't do that trade..... especially after talking about the rebuild. Either gonyoung or keep Melo
wargames wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Nobody would ever give us a lottery pick for Melo at this stage of his career. Id be very happy with Crowder. Shumpert does get injured quite a bit but can still defend a little.NardDogNation wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Wonder if Melo likes what he sees in Cleveland now? Maybe move Love to a third team for something or someone the Knicks could use.I was wondering the same thing. I'd do Frye, Shumpert and that Nets' pick for Melo and O'Quinn.
I doubt they would do the nets pick. That's their life line if this whole thing eventually blows up. I could see Crowder, shumpert, Frye and osman for melo and o'quinn though.
I wouldn't do that trade..... especially after talking about the rebuild. Either gonyoung or keep Melo
Crowder is 27 and barely making more than a rookie contract through 2020. He's almost the same as getting a mid to late lottery pick.
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