Knicks · What are your thoughts on Obi Toppin at 8? (page 4)

SupremeCommander wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

most of his defensive lapses came because of (1) poor posture/stance and (2) coming up too aggressively. Will he ever be DOPY? I would say no. Does this salvageable to me? yes

How does one fix slow feet and slow lateral movement? Asking for Kanter and Amare

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

most of his defensive lapses came because of (1) poor posture/stance and (2) coming up too aggressively. Will he ever be DOPY? I would say no. Does this salvageable to me? yes

How does one fix slow feet and slow lateral movement? Asking for Kanter and Amare

well the video has two different categories - I am speaking specifically about bullet #1

Amar'e went #9.. probably for similar reasons.. yes I would draft Amar'e despite that deficiency

Lastly, some food for thought "Since the 2010-11 season, Trae Young and Zion Williamson are the only other underclassmen to average at least 20 points while also having a box plus/minus of at least 11.7."

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

most of his defensive lapses came because of (1) poor posture/stance and (2) coming up too aggressively. Will he ever be DOPY? I would say no. Does this salvageable to me? yes

How does one fix slow feet and slow lateral movement? Asking for Kanter and Amare

well the video has two different categories - I am speaking specifically about bullet #1

Amar'e went #9.. probably for similar reasons.. yes I would draft Amar'e despite that deficiency

Lastly, some food for thought "Since the 2010-11 season, Trae Young and Zion Williamson are the only other underclassmen to average at least 20 points while also having a box plus/minus of at least 11.7."

Amare was drafted out of high school in an era where the scouting there was not as good as it is today. He was an unknown relatively speaking, just like Kobe

Jimbo5 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

Its pretty hard to watch this, it will take alot of patience to make him into a serviceable defender based on the video.

I'm a grandpa with bad hips (an orthopedic surgeon once swore my xrays could NOT be my xrays because they were so bad) and I play better D.

jrodmc wrote:

Jimbo5 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

Its pretty hard to watch this, it will take alot of patience to make him into a serviceable defender based on the video.

I'm a grandpa with bad hips (an orthopedic surgeon once swore my xrays could NOT be my xrays because they were so bad) and I play better D.

If you had Palsy, an amputated toe and took a hit of Angel Dust before the game, I still think you could play better defense.

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

most of his defensive lapses came because of (1) poor posture/stance and (2) coming up too aggressively. Will he ever be DOPY? I would say no. Does this salvageable to me? yes

How does one fix slow feet and slow lateral movement? Asking for Kanter and Amare

well the video has two different categories - I am speaking specifically about bullet #1

Amar'e went #9.. probably for similar reasons.. yes I would draft Amar'e despite that deficiency

Lastly, some food for thought "Since the 2010-11 season, Trae Young and Zion Williamson are the only other underclassmen to average at least 20 points while also having a box plus/minus of at least 11.7."

Amare was drafted out of high school in an era where the scouting there was not as good as it is today. He was an unknown relatively speaking, just like Kobe

What era are you referencing? Amare was drafted in 2002 and the league stopped letting HSers get drafted in 2006. Please clarify because I don’t understand at al

BigDaddyG wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Jimbo5 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

Its pretty hard to watch this, it will take alot of patience to make him into a serviceable defender based on the video.

I'm a grandpa with bad hips (an orthopedic surgeon once swore my xrays could NOT be my xrays because they were so bad) and I play better D.

If you had Palsy, an amputated toe and took a hit of Angel Dust before the game, I still think you could play better defense.

We should start the Obi defense so bad ... thread. Lol

Obi’s defense is so bad when the coach draws up a defensive scheme he draws it as 4 v 6 because he counts Obi as another offensive player for the opposing team.

TheGame wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Jimbo5 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

Its pretty hard to watch this, it will take alot of patience to make him into a serviceable defender based on the video.

I'm a grandpa with bad hips (an orthopedic surgeon once swore my xrays could NOT be my xrays because they were so bad) and I play better D.

If you had Palsy, an amputated toe and took a hit of Angel Dust before the game, I still think you could play better defense.

We should start the Obi defense so bad ... thread. Lol

Obi’s defense is so bad when the coach draws up a defensive scheme he draws it as 4 v 6 because he counts Obi as another offensive player for the opposing team.

I heard Frank dropped 50 on Obi in a playoff game. Coach took him out after three quarters and then Jared Jeffries hit for another 18.

Jimbo5 wrote: I haven't really thought of Obi as a pick. Can he be a good pick for the knicks at 8?

Obi Toppin is going to be a "swing" pick in this draft. Meaning where he goes will likely reset the board. Hes fallen out of favor for a Tier 1 pick (Edwards/Goose, Ball and Wiseman) but it's where he goes in Tier 2 or not that will domino other guys to fall.

His success becomes a question of long term fit and coaching.

A coach like Doc Rivers will see Toppin as a power forward and try to get him to work on his defense to get it to replacement level. If Toppin spends 80 percent of his skill work on his defense, he won't get to replacement level. It's max effort/high volume/utility of time for low returns. It's choices like this that make Doc Rivers a non elite coach.

A coach like Erik Spolestra will see Toppin as a miscast lead guard/attack guard and will try to get him to work on his handle to get it to replacement level for a primary ball handler. If Toppin spends 80 percent of his skill work here, it will be max effort/high volume/utility of time for exponential returns. It's choices like this that make Spolestra an elite coach and frankly the best coach in the current NBA.

You aren't getting defense from Toppin. There are only three real positions left in the NBA - Pivot, wing, attack guard. The only one where the current pace and space game flow tolerates a shit defender is at attack guard. This will play to Toppin's strengths. He's a good offensive player. He can get to the rim and finish and that should translate to the next level. He'll help you in transition. He's actually a pretty good passer. You aren't getting a high IQ player. You aren't getting a guy who understands how to operate in space thus he's net negative on the glass. You aren't getting a guy with high situational awareness. He plays small/slow for his size ( bullied by power players and chasing speedy players) which is shielded by people waiting for him to take a lob to the rim and seeing the explosion over the technique. He's not a high floor guy, he's an "immediate floor" guy. What you see his rookie year will be 98 percent of what he will be the rest of his career.

Will his long range shooting projection translate? No. He'll project out as a slightly below replacement level shooter. NBA defenses will cover him better and he won't get the same clean looks behind the arc like he did in college.

Defensively, his best asset is his length. Keep him away from the rim as his technique, situational awareness and timing are all tragic. He's just going to have to give "energy guy" level effort here to try to offset the massive holes here. He makes Chris Mullin look like Gary Payton. I don't think you can fix that.

How should a team see him?

He's the kind of player who can help a bad team become decent but not a good team to become great. If you have a great team trying to be elite, he's a tax on your roster.

If you are OK with a fun team to watch and you know you won't last in the playoffs, he's a fine type of player to have. If you want to build a contender, you pass on him, or you draft him with the intent to trade him quickly, basically churn him because this is a weak draft and teams have to think about value for slot.

His best pathway to success is to let him be ball dominant and let him run your offense. Like a lot of players, at lower levels, he was a former point guard, so while he didn't do it at the college level, it's not completely foreign. The questions become can he improve his handle enough and can he efficiently score enough to be worth the trade off on defense.

Best fit? Charlotte. He's as polished as he's going to be so even Jordan can't fuck this up even more. Also Jordan is stupid enough to take him at third overall. And that roster is so battered, the pathway to letting Toppin run that team out the gate isn't so far fetched.

The Wire comparison? Roland Pryzbylewski. Prez was not suited to be a cop and barely suited to be a detective. He was more suited to be a teacher. His father in law Valchek saw him as a cop but refused to accept he was miscast. Prez has the raw look of competence ( white , clean cut, polite) but there were serious fundamental flaws in his makeup ( life dumb, never took good risks, never understood social management) The Prez/Lester Freamon arc is something I always found a bit unsettling. They became very one dimensional over time. Prez reached caricature depths of dumb and Freamon became a Mary Sue throwaway to basically pander to the audience. Aside from Bunny Colvin's arc, most of the police side of the Wire just drove the show into the ground. They were stuck making McNulty the lead character because that's how they had to sell it to HBO but the procedural side of law enforcement was the most one dimensional element of the show. It was basically like Lost, working a checklist of the needed stereotype/trope characters to build a false sense of balance. The police side, plus the docks and plus the newspaper side is why The Wire is not actually prestige television. In a large part due to Dennis Lehane mirroring Mystic River, Season 4 is probably one of the best seasons of television ever made, but I suspect it was because it drew from much of the format that made David Simon's Homicide Life On The Street so groundbreaking. The Wire is like a marriage just good enough for you to stay, but just bad enough to make you want to cry.

TripleThreat wrote:

Jimbo5 wrote: I haven't really thought of Obi as a pick. Can he be a good pick for the knicks at 8?

Obi Toppin is going to be a "swing" pick in this draft. Meaning where he goes will likely reset the board. Hes fallen out of favor for a Tier 1 pick (Edwards/Goose, Ball and Wiseman) but it's where he goes in Tier 2 or not that will domino other guys to fall.

His success becomes a question of long term fit and coaching.

A coach like Doc Rivers will see Toppin as a power forward and try to get him to work on his defense to get it to replacement level. If Toppin spends 80 percent of his skill work on his defense, he won't get to replacement level. It's max effort/high volume/utility of time for low returns. It's choices like this that make Doc Rivers a non elite coach.

A coach like Erik Spolestra will see Toppin as a miscast lead guard/attack guard and will try to get him to work on his handle to get it to replacement level for a primary ball handler. If Toppin spends 80 percent of his skill work here, it will be max effort/high volume/utility of time for exponential returns. It's choices like this that make Spolestra an elite coach and frankly the best coach in the current NBA.

You aren't getting defense from Toppin. There are only three real positions left in the NBA - Pivot, wing, attack guard. The only one where the current pace and space game flow tolerates a shit defender is at attack guard. This will play to Toppin's strengths. He's a good offensive player. He can get to the rim and finish and that should translate to the next level. He'll help you in transition. He's actually a pretty good passer. You aren't getting a high IQ player. You aren't getting a guy who understands how to operate in space thus he's net negative on the glass. You aren't getting a guy with high situational awareness. He plays small/slow for his size ( bullied by power players and chasing speedy players) which is shielded by people waiting for him to take a lob to the rim and seeing the explosion over the technique. He's not a high floor guy, he's an "immediate floor" guy. What you see his rookie year will be 98 percent of what he will be the rest of his career.

Will his long range shooting projection translate? No. He'll project out as a slightly below replacement level shooter. NBA defenses will cover him better and he won't get the same clean looks behind the arc like he did in college.

Defensively, his best asset is his length. Keep him away from the rim as his technique, situational awareness and timing are all tragic. He's just going to have to give "energy guy" level effort here to try to offset the massive holes here. He makes Chris Mullin look like Gary Payton. I don't think you can fix that.

How should a team see him?

He's the kind of player who can help a bad team become decent but not a good team to become great. If you have a great team trying to be elite, he's a tax on your roster.

If you are OK with a fun team to watch and you know you won't last in the playoffs, he's a fine type of player to have. If you want to build a contender, you pass on him, or you draft him with the intent to trade him quickly, basically churn him because this is a weak draft and teams have to think about value for slot.

His best pathway to success is to let him be ball dominant and let him run your offense. Like a lot of players, at lower levels, he was a former point guard, so while he didn't do it at the college level, it's not completely foreign. The questions become can he improve his handle enough and can he efficiently score enough to be worth the trade off on defense.

Best fit? Charlotte. He's as polished as he's going to be so even Jordan can't fuck this up even more. Also Jordan is stupid enough to take him at third overall. And that roster is so battered, the pathway to letting Toppin run that team out the gate isn't so far fetched.

The Wire comparison? Roland Pryzbylewski. Prez was not suited to be a cop and barely suited to be a detective. He was more suited to be a teacher. His father in law Valchek saw him as a cop but refused to accept he was miscast. Prez has the raw look of competence ( white , clean cut, polite) but there were serious fundamental flaws in his makeup ( life dumb, never took good risks, never understood social management) The Prez/Lester Freamon arc is something I always found a bit unsettling. They became very one dimensional over time. Prez reached caricature depths of dumb and Freamon became a Mary Sue throwaway to basically pander to the audience. Aside from Bunny Colvin's arc, most of the police side of the Wire just drove the show into the ground. They were stuck making McNulty the lead character because that's how they had to sell it to HBO but the procedural side of law enforcement was the most one dimensional element of the show. It was basically like Lost, working a checklist of the needed stereotype/trope characters to build a false sense of balance. The police side, plus the docks and plus the newspaper side is why The Wire is not actually prestige television. In a large part due to Dennis Lehane mirroring Mystic River, Season 4 is probably one of the best seasons of television ever made, but I suspect it was because it drew from much of the format that made David Simon's Homicide Life On The Street so groundbreaking. The Wire is like a marriage just good enough for you to stay, but just bad enough to make you want to cry.

That's a really nice post. So, he is a bust, basically?

Knicks fans love and appreciate defense. That is why we defend Frank even with his shortcomings. There is NO WAY Obi Toppin can survive here. Knicks fans will turn on him after the first game. I have saved his defensive highlights video on my computer for when I am having a bad day and need a good laugh, that is how bad it is. Please Knicks management, spare this kid the embarrassment and pass on him.

If he hangs 20 and 10 we might forgive some of the defense lapse.
The video looked pretty comical. But then Video's takng the worst can do that.

Nalod wrote:If he hangs 20 and 10 we might forgive some of the defense lapse.
The video looked pretty comical. But then Video's takng the worst can do that.

Randle is almost a 20 and 10 player and he's not very popular. Without taking into consideration that Randle's defense seems miles better even though he doesn't try most of the time. The dream would be Knox taking this stretch 4 role.

YEAH BABY

This dude cannot guard a closed door.

Not my first choice but I think he could end up being ROY. I am officially a fan.

Knicks got really lucky getting this guy here.

Defense isn’t a priority when you have Mitch, Frank and rj. There’s 2 things we need a scoring machine and a deadly shooter. Obi crosses the scoring machine ... this kid is gonna be a star a amare with a way better outside shot. People shouldn’t be complaining we got a serious steal at 8

fishmike wrote:Knicks got really lucky getting this guy here.

Love Toppin. But never thought Deni would be there. Think Deni will prove to be the biggest surprise. But F@#& it. On the Obi ban wagon now that he is a Knick!!

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Knicks got really lucky getting this guy here.

Love Toppin. But never thought Deni would be there. Think Deni will prove to be the biggest surprise. But F@#& it. On the Obi ban wagon now that he is a Knick!!

SAME!

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Knicks got really lucky getting this guy here.

Love Toppin. But never thought Deni would be there. Think Deni will prove to be the biggest surprise. But F@#& it. On the Obi ban wagon now that he is a Knick!!

SAME!

Ditto. I am on the Obi bandwagon officially. He’s going to improve that defense!