blkexec wrote:martin wrote:blkexec wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:blkexec wrote:franco12 wrote:no one on this thread has mentioned him, but I see Dwayne Wade as a comparison to RJ. Not an amazing outside shooter, clutch with the will to win. Get's fouled. Drives to the hoop.He's 20. So in two years, we can start to compare them.
But - I also feel the jury is still out on him.
Is he a franchise talent?
I don't think so- because franchise talents show it at this age - see Lebron, Luka and just about any other top talents you want to include.
Can he be a very good player? Absolutely. But to answer Fishmike's the Tank is over, we are missing the thing you need from a tank - a franchise talent.
D.Wade is a good comparison..I think thats RJs floor.
Sometimes RJs determination to be a franchise player and his drive to be an impactful player can get ahead of his talent. That comes with time. Right now, I love how he has everything you want in a franchise player. I've seen players with more skills, but lacking that 4th quarter take over in crunch time. RJ has that. The question is will his skill set catchup to his drive and determination to be great. I've been an RJ fan since Duke. Everybody was on zion. But I was like. If coach K trust RJ with the ball in critical moments of the game, then RJ is someone with the same potential as zion, becasue he has pt forward skills and he's not afraid of the moment.
Martin, I think BRIGGS hijacked your account. 😉
You think Hall of Famer — Dwayne Wade is RJ’s floor? I assume you meant ceiling. I thought I’ve been kind comparing him to TMac. This team isn’t really constructed for Barrett’s benefit and he is still doing pretty well in his second year. I’d be a bit more inclined to run Barrett without Randle (split them up) since I think they both are better off with the ball coming through them in the post. I trust the coaching already, so am happy to see it play out regardless of my impressions.
I'm not comparing HOF wade to RJ. Im comparing 64 games into his nba career compared to RJ. But for the most part, both was not good 3pt shooter. But Wade was able to have a solid career. Thats all im saying. Yall trying to find an exact comparison, is part of the problem.
Why didn't you just say that then? And all you noted was exactly 1 aspect of comparison: Both were not distance shooters.
Outside of maybe both of them being good rebounders, why choose Wade? Completely different players IMHO
Martin. Check the history. I didnt CHOOSE wade...I simply agreed with franc.
As far as how you see Wade and my view of Wade is probably different...which is fine. Im not as high on him as you are. So when I think of Wade, I usually think of his heart, his energy, his on the floor leadership, his lack of a 3pt game, but still reached star status. Those similarities first came to me when franco mentioned it.
But nobody will be exactly like RJ....big, strong, and agile lefty...but his heart to me is his biggest asset. He's not afraid of the moment. Taking the winning shot. He improves on his weaknesses and wants to be great. I can't ask for any more than that. Sometimes we allow the position these guys are picked in the draft. To blind us from how he's still an impactful player with slashing, shooting and defending potential for a 20 yr old.
Rivers to Starks is my comparison
Let me own the D Wade comparison. It's what pops into my head. I see that vs Tmac - to each their own.
I'd agree about Wade/RJ - not great shooters. I never thought D Wade was the quickest player, but he always managed to be crafty and got to the basket, drew fouls- and hit clutch shots - sure, he shot at a low percentage, but when the game was on the line, he would show up.
RJ settling into a habit of taking really horrendous mid-range mamba-style fadeaway shots, only he ain't a mamba yet. Still has to prove whether he deserves being compared to Kobe, TMac or Wade, or is Nick Anderson a more realistic comparison. Thibs needs to push the team into more open-court plays, to play up to RJ's strengths and get him going.
ESOMKnicks wrote:RJ settling into a habit of taking really horrendous mid-range mamba-style fadeaway shots, only he ain't a mamba yet. Still has to prove whether he deserves being compared to Kobe, TMac or Wade, or is Nick Anderson a more realistic comparison. Thibs needs to push the team into more open-court plays, to play up to RJ's strengths and get him going.
I was thinking the team was settling for 15 for jumpers. Not just Barrett. They take pretty inefficient shots. Bound to catch up with them.
ITs all good until knicks lose a game?
Young players not already superstars are uneven.
RJ is not fluid like Kobe. Rj’s shot is a bit mechanical to the point his release is not effective when he has to improvise off balance. Good point that he has yet to play 82 games yet.
Not sure we have to buy into this or not yet. RJ seems to adapt quickly. What I’d like to see is how he trends in 5-10 game samples to see a longer term type analytic.
Kind of like Mitch fouling. ALso, how does mitch accumulate his fouls. One can see in his count is down but what specific situations has he improved on NUMERICALLY. He is not reaching in frustration. IN the paint he is standing his ground or jumping vertically. All this adds up.
When we break down RJ, what is he doing right? What is the defense giving him that he is not executing? What is he doing wrong and when is he doing it? Is he working on specifics and is it “tolerable” as development “costs” thinking it breaks him thru.
The air balls by knox are a good example. He is keeping his arch which is good. The shots are sometimes when the 24 second clock is about out and he is forcing it. OK, take those out of out. Not so bad. Somethings are bone head moves, some are not.
what shots by any player are everything right but the ball goes “in and out”. Those are good shots and over time they do start to fall.
This is done by all players by most coaching staffs in the league at some level. There is a reason why Frank and Dennis other than contract were given opportunities. And why Trier was dismissed and not seen by any team. We can guess. some fans think they have to answers. some have no idea. some are just asking questions.
Martin,
Funny you posted a pic of Oscar as I was thinking his build when younger was similar to RJ’s. Remember Oscar was a 4 year NCAA player before he came to NBA so any comps even physically are just a bit abstract.
Oscar had an awkward almost mechanical shooting form. RJ is very mechanical. Oscar was physical in the paint. RJ at 20 years old is very much.
Now before anyone goes off saying I’m nuts for doing this I am not by any stretch saying RJ can be an alltime great. In fact. Oscar if he played in the present might be closer to Mudiay than what he was given how much the game has evolved. My point is RJ was fully 3 years younger than Oscar was when he came in the league and while not fluid like Kobe, it is very premature to consider putting a floor or ceiling on RJ. I’m impressed by RJ’s body control, ability to finish at the rim, draw fouls and creating space on his shot.
RJ’s per 36 numbers actually aren’t that different from last year. We’re early in the season and his shooting %’s will fluctuate a bit. His ft% so far this year is 71%. If he misses 2 in a row he won’t be far from where he was last year - if he hits 2 in a row he’ll be approaching 80 again.
Rebounding, assists, scoring, nearly everything is right around where he was last year. The one notable bit is his TO’s are down.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pla...
On the eye test he generally looks better out there (except for the 3’s bricking at an absurdly high rate)
blkexec wrote:Uptown wrote:RJ 7-21 from the field....
Well....lets see how thibs handles RJs minutes moving forward, especially when Burks 🤔 returns. Not only his shooting, but his defense was slacking also. He still played hard, but didn't look sharp on both ends. Burks is 1 of the few consistent guards on the team, with a reliable jumper....and he can penetrate the paint, plus play defense. So let's see if thibs is a smart coach and recognize this shift he needs to make, if RJ and Randle continue to show fatigue. Both looked tired or burned out that first half.
The whole team looked lethargic...keep in mind, not only are RJ, Randle and Payton playing a ton of minutes in games, Thibs is notorious for his long, grind it out practices. We don't have access to practice but it wouldn't shock me.
Randle and RJ are 1 and 2 in the league in mins played per game Thibs actually yanked RJ in favor of Rivers in the Utah game when Rivers went off. Would like to see more of that if RJ continues to force the issue and take bad shots. His freethrow % is up, but his fg % and 3 pt % are just as bad if not worse than last year.
technomaster wrote:RJ’s per 36 numbers actually aren’t that different from last year. We’re early in the season and his shooting %’s will fluctuate a bit. His ft% so far this year is 71%. If he misses 2 in a row he won’t be far from where he was last year - if he hits 2 in a row he’ll be approaching 80 again.Rebounding, assists, scoring, nearly everything is right around where he was last year. The one notable bit is his TO’s are down.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pla...
On the eye test he generally looks better out there (except for the 3’s bricking at an absurdly high rate)
Yes.
From an athletic perspective, RJ is methodical not elite, takes him a long time to load up for jumping and speed up while running. This won't hold him back from being a high end player but he will have to make it up in other ways. One of them is shooting and he has spent now at least one off-season trying to correct. Maybe this is just step one of a longer process but so far results are not where you would want them to be. I can't tell on the footwork or defense and haven't really followed there.
For me, shooting 3point airballs when you are wide open is a red flag. I keep looking at that eFG% and it's hovering near 40%. Not good. FT% has gone from near 80% to 70% over the span of near 10 games and the trend is downward.
Small sample size for everything. He has the heart, determination, and personality. I am just not a buyer (yet?) of the other parts that are necessary to become a top level guy.
Nalod wrote:ITs all good until knicks lose a game?
Young players not already superstars are uneven.
RJ is not fluid like Kobe. Rj’s shot is a bit mechanical to the point his release is not effective when he has to improvise off balance. Good point that he has yet to play 82 games yet.
Not sure we have to buy into this or not yet. RJ seems to adapt quickly. What I’d like to see is how he trends in 5-10 game samples to see a longer term type analytic.
Kind of like Mitch fouling. ALso, how does mitch accumulate his fouls. One can see in his count is down but what specific situations has he improved on NUMERICALLY. He is not reaching in frustration. IN the paint he is standing his ground or jumping vertically. All this adds up.
When we break down RJ, what is he doing right? What is the defense giving him that he is not executing? What is he doing wrong and when is he doing it? Is he working on specifics and is it “tolerable” as development “costs” thinking it breaks him thru.
The air balls by knox are a good example. He is keeping his arch which is good. The shots are sometimes when the 24 second clock is about out and he is forcing it. OK, take those out of out. Not so bad. Somethings are bone head moves, some are not.
what shots by any player are everything right but the ball goes “in and out”. Those are good shots and over time they do start to fall.
This is done by all players by most coaching staffs in the league at some level. There is a reason why Frank and Dennis other than contract were given opportunities. And why Trier was dismissed and not seen by any team. We can guess. some fans think they have to answers. some have no idea. some are just asking questions.
I think we all see the effect of coaching, but its hard not to be skeptical.
The wins have felt magical - heroic comebacks from unexpected sources.
The losses, well, they looked a lot like the wins (except for the missing comeback).
As more teams get into shape and start gelling, I think this Knicks team will have an even tougher time coming back from down 20.
They will need to figure out how to get ahead and stay ahead.
RJ has shown so much more than Frank, at this stage. Without playing pro ball. Frank has been shown almost infinite patience, by many here. Barrett is being relied on like a veteran with more experience. Bound to have off nights.
If RJ is being compared to Pippen, Frank would be a Ron Harper. Conditional on both becoming consistent shooters.
ESOMKnicks wrote:If RJ is being compared to Pippen, Frank would be a Ron Harper. Conditional on both becoming consistent shooters.
I can agree with some other players, but not pippen. I just can't see it, but I also know pippens game. But right now RJ needs to find RJs game. Because it was lost. Consistency and efficiency is what's holding back our top scorers. RJ, Randle and Payton. If Burks was healthy, he probably would've been a top 3 scorer on this team....and Burks appears to be consistent early in the season, and through out his pro career.
ESOMKnicks wrote:If RJ is being compared to Pippen, Frank would be a Ron Harper. Conditional on both becoming consistent shooters.
Im guessing RJ has shown more statistically than Pippen, to this point in his career. Who knows what happens from this point. Might not be as fast in transition, but Barrett isnt in peak condition yet.
Frank was the "heir apparent" PG from day one, for many. And no amount of evidence to the contrary, chsnged that opinion.
GustavBahler wrote:ESOMKnicks wrote:If RJ is being compared to Pippen, Frank would be a Ron Harper. Conditional on both becoming consistent shooters.
Im guessing RJ has shown more statistically than Pippen, to this point in his career. Who knows what happens from this point. Might not be as fast in transition, but Barrett isnt in peak condition yet.
Frank was the "heir apparent" PG from day one, for many. And no amount of evidence to the contrary, chsnged that opinion.
Frank was anointed as the "other" guard next to a Jordan or a Kobe in our triangle offense. Except that his 3-point shot has been a disappointment, we never found our Jordan or Kobe, and we no longer play the triangle.
EwingsGlass wrote:Nalod wrote:ITs all good until knicks lose a game?
Young players not already superstars are uneven.
RJ is not fluid like Kobe. Rj’s shot is a bit mechanical to the point his release is not effective when he has to improvise off balance. Good point that he has yet to play 82 games yet.
Not sure we have to buy into this or not yet. RJ seems to adapt quickly. What I’d like to see is how he trends in 5-10 game samples to see a longer term type analytic.
Kind of like Mitch fouling. ALso, how does mitch accumulate his fouls. One can see in his count is down but what specific situations has he improved on NUMERICALLY. He is not reaching in frustration. IN the paint he is standing his ground or jumping vertically. All this adds up.
When we break down RJ, what is he doing right? What is the defense giving him that he is not executing? What is he doing wrong and when is he doing it? Is he working on specifics and is it “tolerable” as development “costs” thinking it breaks him thru.
The air balls by knox are a good example. He is keeping his arch which is good. The shots are sometimes when the 24 second clock is about out and he is forcing it. OK, take those out of out. Not so bad. Somethings are bone head moves, some are not.
what shots by any player are everything right but the ball goes “in and out”. Those are good shots and over time they do start to fall.
This is done by all players by most coaching staffs in the league at some level. There is a reason why Frank and Dennis other than contract were given opportunities. And why Trier was dismissed and not seen by any team. We can guess. some fans think they have to answers. some have no idea. some are just asking questions.
I think we all see the effect of coaching, but its hard not to be skeptical.
The wins have felt magical - heroic comebacks from unexpected sources.
The losses, well, they looked a lot like the wins (except for the missing comeback).
As more teams get into shape and start gelling, I think this Knicks team will have an even tougher time coming back from down 20.
They will need to figure out how to get ahead and stay ahead.
We gonna come back from down 20 tonight?
He has a good all around game except for one thing - his shooting touch.
Ira wrote:He has a good all around game except for one thing - his shooting touch.
He’s a decent rebounder. What else though?
Ultimately, RJ is a #2 option by default, because we are void of talent. Ideally, RJ should be a 3rd or 4th option. As a 3rd or 4th option, playing alongside a legit playmaker, and 2 players that command the attention from the defense, RJ will be able to be on the receiving end of slashing and cutting into the paint and finish along the baseline. RJ's game should be 15 feet and in, similar to Nick Anderson when he first came into the league.
Too many times, RJ is trying to create his own offense off the bounce which is a weakness of his right now and Thibs isn't doing him any favors by having him spot-up when Randle is in the post. And RJ continues to jack them up from 3...he has to realize, he's open for a reason.
Uptown wrote:Ultimately, RJ is a #2 option by default, because we are void of talent. Ideally, RJ should be a 3rd or 4th option. As a 3rd or 4th option, playing alongside a legit playmaker, and 2 players that command the attention from the defense, RJ will be able to be on the receiving end of slashing and cutting into the paint and finish along the baseline. RJ's game should be 15 feet and in, similar to Nick Anderson when he first came into the league. Too many times, RJ is trying to create his own offense off the bounce which is a weakness of his right now and Thibs isn't doing him any favors by having him spot-up when Randle is in the post. And RJ continues to jack them up from 3...he has to realize, he's open for a reason.
+1
If that’s the case, and it might as well be, then he is already a disappointment. Third pick in the draft after being the expected #1 in earlier projections, his shooting is really terrible and with no signs of improvement. I thought we had a keeper and maybe our number one building block. But it doesn’t seem that way right now.
Sure, it’s still early, but that shooting is a huge turn-off.
