The Knicks 1-4 postseason series against the Atlanta Hawks had me thinking the Knicks have to hire a retired NBA winning head-coach to replace assistant Woodson on the bench. Plus sign an experience FA PG who play-maker skills will keep the ball out of (turnover) Randle's hands. Or Trade Randle? Now, the Yoots had me thinking a lot throughout the 2021-22 season of firing Thibs. But every time the thought of firing Thibs came to my mind, the thought of Thibs replacement came also. Who do the Knicks get to replace Thibs? Who's available? I knew little bout assistant Payne to even give him the remainder of the season as Knicks head coach? So, until a decent head-coach are available, we are stuck with Thibs for the season.
When Thibs Fired or Exile Kemba from the Knicks starter PG position, did Thibs believe Burks could do better than Kemba? Personally, I did not want to resign Burks & Noel in the offseason. And after Burks was a starter for 10 consecutive games the Knicks 2-8 record screamed louder than us fans, "Wrong replacement! And wrong coach decision! Was Burks really the Knicks starter PG facilitating the ball? Or was PF-Randle being the Knicks first scoring option the main ball facilitator on offense? Here's a reminder .... Recall when the Knicks let PF-Carmelo Amthony be the first-option on offense, plus the PG to dribble and facilitate the ball for seven consecutive seasons. How many PG did the Knicks sign in those 7 seasons that never worked out? What happen to Melo his first month on the Houston Rockets who had two all-star PG on the team?
Deuce McBride has the same problem Obi Toppin have .. Head coach Thibs are afraid of Randle! Randle decides when he come off the court, and when he goes back on the court! Randle has become like Melo calling all the shots on offense for 40 minutes a game !!!
blkexec@ 3/22/2022 1:10 AM
Deuce is sending a message to Thibs, coaching staff, owner, fans and more importantly himself. I rather invest time into grooming him to be the pg on this team, than trying to force an offensive minded pg to play defense. He plays defense in his sleep. And on the right team or system, he’s the next up and coming defensive pg in this league. Now imagine that as your starting point. Deuce is the perfect pg to have since he doesn’t require any plays and still gives you 110%.
If he keeps this up, it will add more pressure on this coaching staff to see what you have in deuce. At worse he’s a solid PG off the bench.
ramtour420@ 3/22/2022 5:49 AM
blkexec wrote:Deuce is sending a message to Thibs, coaching staff, owner, fans and more importantly himself. I rather invest time into grooming him to be the pg on this team, than trying to force an offensive minded pg to play defense. He plays defense in his sleep. And on the right team or system, he’s the next up and coming defensive pg in this league. Now imagine that as your starting point. Deuce is the perfect pg to have since he doesn’t require any plays and still gives you 110%.
If he keeps this up, it will add more pressure on this coaching staff to see what you have in deuce. At worse he’s a solid PG off the bench.
He just dished 18 assists in Westchester. Hmm. Can we call up our Westchester Knicks coach and have him help us with our offensive sets?
smackeddog@ 3/22/2022 6:43 AM
Yes, but how about that Alec Burks!!!!!!
blkexec@ 3/22/2022 7:49 AM
ramtour420 wrote:
blkexec wrote:Deuce is sending a message to Thibs, coaching staff, owner, fans and more importantly himself. I rather invest time into grooming him to be the pg on this team, than trying to force an offensive minded pg to play defense. He plays defense in his sleep. And on the right team or system, he’s the next up and coming defensive pg in this league. Now imagine that as your starting point. Deuce is the perfect pg to have since he doesn’t require any plays and still gives you 110%.
If he keeps this up, it will add more pressure on this coaching staff to see what you have in deuce. At worse he’s a solid PG off the bench.
He just dished 18 assists in Westchester. Hmm. Can we call up our Westchester Knicks coach and have him help us with our offensive sets?
That’s a good point. Whoever is coaching needs a promotion to thibs staff.
Lots of pick and roll plays with deuce showing off his pocket passes in half court whole orchestrating the offense. I’m glad he’s playing. I believe knox and other players we drafted should’ve played in the gleague as well, instead of rotting on the bench.
Nice game by deuce along with his teammates who seems to have a nice shooting touch. Deuce has plenty of shooters and scorers around him. At this point he probably prefer the gleague where his value continues to increase.
SergioNYK@ 3/22/2022 8:40 AM
Crazy how good Deuce looks in the GL and how shitty he looks in the NBA.
foosballnick@ 3/22/2022 9:00 AM
SergioNYK wrote:Crazy how good Deuce looks in the GL and how shitty he looks in the NBA.
Confidence is everything. In the G-League he is the lead guard with the ball in his hands for significant minutes. In the NBA he is asked to play off ball on the wing as a spot up 5th option with the general issue that if he makes a mistake he will be pulled or even get penalized with a DNP the next game (or more). He's not a high draft pick nor a sure thing talent - so he will have to keep plugging away.
SupremeCommander@ 3/22/2022 9:06 AM
foosballnick wrote:
SergioNYK wrote:Crazy how good Deuce looks in the GL and how shitty he looks in the NBA.
Confidence is everything. In the G-League he is the lead guard with the ball in his hands for significant minutes. In the NBA he is asked to play off ball on the wing as a spot up 5th option with the general issue that if he makes a mistake he will be pulled or even get penalized with a DNP the next game (or more). He's not a high draft pick nor a sure thing talent - so he will have to keep plugging away.
I agree
He's also just a kid that was effectively told that he wasn't good enough for the pros... so I agree with this, they just need to build his confidence. I definitely had imposter syndrome when I started my current gig, and I think it's normal. I think once he gets reps he will see himself as a pro hooper and he will improve
That said I liked some of his part time work with IQ. It's not lost on me that IQ's best play this year was with Deuce
fishmike@ 3/22/2022 9:33 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:
foosballnick wrote:
SergioNYK wrote:Crazy how good Deuce looks in the GL and how shitty he looks in the NBA.
Confidence is everything. In the G-League he is the lead guard with the ball in his hands for significant minutes. In the NBA he is asked to play off ball on the wing as a spot up 5th option with the general issue that if he makes a mistake he will be pulled or even get penalized with a DNP the next game (or more). He's not a high draft pick nor a sure thing talent - so he will have to keep plugging away.
I agree
He's also just a kid that was effectively told that he wasn't good enough for the pros... so I agree with this, they just need to build his confidence. I definitely had imposter syndrome when I started my current gig, and I think it's normal. I think once he gets reps he will see himself as a pro hooper and he will improve
That said I liked some of his part time work with IQ. It's not lost on me that IQ's best play this year was with Deuce
I am really high on them both... they are both gonna need some more time but I love what I see. IQ reminds me of Jamal Crawford/Bobby Jackson while McBride looks a lot like Marcus Smart. Both really good players I hope we have around awhile
martin@ 3/22/2022 9:36 AM
Knicks could have 3 nice young kids that can all handle the ball and run plays: IQ, Deuce, Roka to go along with Rose for another year or 2.
It'll be fun to watch then develop.
blkexec@ 3/22/2022 10:10 AM
martin wrote:Knicks could have 3 nice young kids that can all handle the ball and run plays: IQ, Deuce, Roka to go along with Rose for another year or 2.
It'll be fun to watch then develop.
My fear is Thibs. Thibs doesn't come across as a development coach. Thibs is known for having a tight rotation while trusting vets over rookies. Now can Thibs change? sure. I believe we all can improve over time. But it's still a risk to have Thibs lead the development of young players. What has Obi improved on under Thibs? Can Thibs change from having a tight rotation to a larger rotation and still win games? Maybe you guys have more faith in Thibs than I do. But I worry our bottleneck in player development is Thibs. For example, will Thibs sit Randle when he has a bad game or seems emotionally distrut? and replace Randle for Obi in certain situations? In the past he went with Taj over Obi. Again, I'm hoping for the best, but we finally have a deap young team with potential NBA star talent. Is Thibs the right coach for this young team?
martin@ 3/22/2022 10:48 AM
blkexec wrote:
martin wrote:Knicks could have 3 nice young kids that can all handle the ball and run plays: IQ, Deuce, Roka to go along with Rose for another year or 2.
It'll be fun to watch then develop.
My fear is Thibs. Thibs doesn't come across as a development coach. Thibs is known for having a tight rotation while trusting vets over rookies. Now can Thibs change? sure. I believe we all can improve over time. But it's still a risk to have Thibs lead the development of young players. What has Obi improved on under Thibs? Can Thibs change from having a tight rotation to a larger rotation and still win games? Maybe you guys have more faith in Thibs than I do. But I worry our bottleneck in player development is Thibs. For example, will Thibs sit Randle when he has a bad game or seems emotionally distrut? and replace Randle for Obi in certain situations? In the past he went with Taj over Obi. Again, I'm hoping for the best, but we finally have a deap young team with potential NBA star talent. Is Thibs the right coach for this young team?
This is not a good argument. At all.
If you cherry pick a sample size of one player, you can show a poor argument that looks in your favor but that's not how making a substantive argument works.
Use RJ, Grimes, IQ, the young Rose on Chicago, second year player KAT, Mitch. Did those players get better from Day 1 of Thibs and throughout?
Randle has been a problem this year. But he was also very, very good last year under Thibs. Was it player or coach? Or both? Or neither?
Focus all you want on Obi but Obi has a lot of Obi problems and it showed out in day 1, year 1 and still does now. Same with Wiggins. Took Wiggins like 5-6 years and a very stable environment before he showed out.
Also recognize that there is a balance between trying to win and development and that some players develop at different paces.
Make your case only using Obi as an example and you won't get very far.
Development is not just done with the head coach. It has to be throughout an organization for it to be really effective. Has NY provided their players with enough of a development process; one part of that is certainly playing time but let's not fall into the world where minutes given is the only indicator that either the head coach or team is developing players. And quite frankly, development happens over a multi year period as well as in season. Most players use the offseason to make the biggest jumps in development too.
martin@ 3/22/2022 11:14 AM
IMHO development has to be purposeful at every step.
Just giving minutes to young players who may not be ready for them is not it. Got to have preparation, a set standard, and a carrot and stick (playing time for young guys is the only real motivator coaches have as a tool and it only lasts for a few years).
Thibs and Knicks have told us repeatedly how they are approaching their team, like it or not. Do what you are asked for in practice. They have a standard they want to players to get to. You will get your chance, be ready and perform when that happens. Play well, earn more minutes. (And if you need a reminder why Burks or Randle or Fournier aren't held to same standard, ask yourself if those guys are really in the long term plans for the Knicks or if they are just placeholders. And then ask a teacher or parent with various types of personalities in their care if they treat each kid the same, namely RJ versus Obi playing time.).
They are not doing the Fizdale "give Knox lots of minutes and see what happens" method.
It's frustrating from a pure viewership angle but it is what it is.
blkexec@ 3/22/2022 12:43 PM
Martin, I’m not going to go back and forth on why thibs is not the development coach this team needs. Obi being selected while Randle receives a large contract extension was the first mistake by thibs and the FO. Not finding creative ways to play Obi is on thibs. I think it’s clear to me. As long as thibs is the coach and Randle is on the team, Obi gets no play.
As long as rose is on the team and we continue to add a new PG every year, deuce gets no play and IQ goes back to his 6 man roll.
If we had a flexible coach that understands this team is lacking the talent to win a playoff game, why not shift to complete development? Vs this half and half approach. But not going to complain too much. Because regardless who is coaching the Knicks, they will try to win which means you play the known vets and don’t play the unknown rookies. Then it’s up to the FO to create a roster where the coach has no choice. Give thibs choices and he’s playing taj and rose 40 mins.
foosballnick@ 3/22/2022 12:53 PM
martin wrote:
blkexec wrote:
martin wrote:Knicks could have 3 nice young kids that can all handle the ball and run plays: IQ, Deuce, Roka to go along with Rose for another year or 2.
It'll be fun to watch then develop.
My fear is Thibs. Thibs doesn't come across as a development coach. Thibs is known for having a tight rotation while trusting vets over rookies. Now can Thibs change? sure. I believe we all can improve over time. But it's still a risk to have Thibs lead the development of young players. What has Obi improved on under Thibs? Can Thibs change from having a tight rotation to a larger rotation and still win games? Maybe you guys have more faith in Thibs than I do. But I worry our bottleneck in player development is Thibs. For example, will Thibs sit Randle when he has a bad game or seems emotionally distrut? and replace Randle for Obi in certain situations? In the past he went with Taj over Obi. Again, I'm hoping for the best, but we finally have a deap young team with potential NBA star talent. Is Thibs the right coach for this young team?
This is not a good argument. At all.
If you cherry pick a sample size of one player, you can show a poor argument that looks in your favor but that's not how making a substantive argument works.
Use RJ, Grimes, IQ, the young Rose on Chicago, second year player KAT, Mitch. Did those players get better from Day 1 of Thibs and throughout?
Randle has been a problem this year. But he was also very, very good last year under Thibs. Was it player or coach? Or both? Or neither?
Focus all you want on Obi but Obi has a lot of Obi problems and it showed out in day 1, year 1 and still does now. Same with Wiggins. Took Wiggins like 5-6 years and a very stable environment before he showed out.
Also recognize that there is a balance between trying to win and development and that some players develop at different paces.
Make your case only using Obi as an example and you won't get very far.
Development is not just done with the head coach. It has to be throughout an organization for it to be really effective. Has NY provided their players with enough of a development process; one part of that is certainly playing time but let's not fall into the world where minutes given is the only indicator that either the head coach or team is developing players. And quite frankly, development happens over a multi year period as well as in season. Most players use the offseason to make the biggest jumps in development too.
I can't quite place my issue with Thibs - but it is not the lack of development for young guys. Of course this is just a fan's take with no inside knowledge - but he appears to be the type that is mainly focused on his formula and the task at hand over the bigger picture. This works when things are going well - but in a season like this one with extended losing streaks and where there is very little chance of even a play-in game - some more focus on the bigger picture would seem applicable.
Case in point - the Knicks played the Jazz last night and prior to the game were 5 games out of the 10th spot play-in with 12 games to play. I'm unsure of the value of playing Randle and Burks each 34+ minutes while playing IQ only 22.5 minutes , Obi (~13 minutes) and McBride (~3 minutes). I would think that more playing time in regular NBA games will help not only in development but rather in the assessment process of what moves to make in the offseason rather than kicking the can down the road even further. Guessing that Obi will generally not see much of the light of day as Randle is the locker room Alpha and will very rarely see reduced minutes unless either traded or an "A" player is ever brought in. But why wait any longer on McBride to see what you have in NBA games with the ball in his hands for extended minutes in a string of games? Will it hurt the team to sit/reduce Burks minutes at the point?
blkexec@ 3/22/2022 1:08 PM
foosballnick wrote:
martin wrote:
blkexec wrote:
martin wrote:Knicks could have 3 nice young kids that can all handle the ball and run plays: IQ, Deuce, Roka to go along with Rose for another year or 2.
It'll be fun to watch then develop.
My fear is Thibs. Thibs doesn't come across as a development coach. Thibs is known for having a tight rotation while trusting vets over rookies. Now can Thibs change? sure. I believe we all can improve over time. But it's still a risk to have Thibs lead the development of young players. What has Obi improved on under Thibs? Can Thibs change from having a tight rotation to a larger rotation and still win games? Maybe you guys have more faith in Thibs than I do. But I worry our bottleneck in player development is Thibs. For example, will Thibs sit Randle when he has a bad game or seems emotionally distrut? and replace Randle for Obi in certain situations? In the past he went with Taj over Obi. Again, I'm hoping for the best, but we finally have a deap young team with potential NBA star talent. Is Thibs the right coach for this young team?
This is not a good argument. At all.
If you cherry pick a sample size of one player, you can show a poor argument that looks in your favor but that's not how making a substantive argument works.
Use RJ, Grimes, IQ, the young Rose on Chicago, second year player KAT, Mitch. Did those players get better from Day 1 of Thibs and throughout?
Randle has been a problem this year. But he was also very, very good last year under Thibs. Was it player or coach? Or both? Or neither?
Focus all you want on Obi but Obi has a lot of Obi problems and it showed out in day 1, year 1 and still does now. Same with Wiggins. Took Wiggins like 5-6 years and a very stable environment before he showed out.
Also recognize that there is a balance between trying to win and development and that some players develop at different paces.
Make your case only using Obi as an example and you won't get very far.
Development is not just done with the head coach. It has to be throughout an organization for it to be really effective. Has NY provided their players with enough of a development process; one part of that is certainly playing time but let's not fall into the world where minutes given is the only indicator that either the head coach or team is developing players. And quite frankly, development happens over a multi year period as well as in season. Most players use the offseason to make the biggest jumps in development too.
I can't quite place my issue with Thibs - but it is not the lack of development for young guys. Of course this is just a fan's take with no inside knowledge - but he appears to be the type that is mainly focused on his formula and the task at hand over the bigger picture. This works when things are going well - but in a season like this one with extended losing streaks and where there is very little chance of even a play-in game - some more focus on the bigger picture would seem applicable.
Case in point - the Knicks played the Jazz last night and prior to the game were 5 games out of the 10th spot play-in with 12 games to play. I'm unsure of the value of playing Randle and Burks each 34+ minutes while playing IQ only 22.5 minutes , Obi (~13 minutes) and McBride (~3 minutes). I would think that more playing time in regular NBA games will help not only in development but rather in the assessment process of what moves to make in the offseason rather than kicking the can down the road even further. Guessing that Obi will generally not see much of the light of day as Randle is the locker room Alpha and will very rarely see reduced minutes unless either traded or an "A" player is ever brought in. But why wait any longer on McBride to see what you have in NBA games with the ball in his hands for extended minutes in a string of games? Will it hurt the team to sit/reduce Burks minutes at the point?
I think you summed it up pretty well, while using a recent game against the jazz as up to date proof that Thibs is stuck on stability and structure with a team that’s still searching for an identity. Randle was having an off day from the jump. He got his money, not getting back on defense yet we sit the yoots who got us back into the game and subbed in Randle and Burks.
I’m pointing the finger at: 1. The FO 2. Thibs 3. Randle
