Knicks · Bullish on Deuce (page 8)

So let’s move this back to my point. Duece and sims. We need a PG correct? I agree sitting Kemba will hurt his value maybe but everybody knows what Kemba brings.

For sims to play, you decrease our centers value and I agree with that. So make a simple trade, shouldnt be hard to make room for sims.

blkexec wrote:So let’s move this back to my point. Duece and sims. We need a PG correct? I agree sitting Kemba will hurt his value maybe but everybody knows what Kemba brings.

For sims to play, you decrease our centers value and I agree with that. So make a simple trade, shouldnt be hard to make room for sims.

I do think the Knicks need to hold the line until at least the trade deadline. Mitch getting more minutes is a very good thing. I would love more Jericho but can sorta see why Taj getting minutes. Jericho looks real nice on alley oops and putback dunks, but what do we know about his defensive organization or PnR defense or weak side help? That's where he needs to grow and see how Taj does things. I do like him long term though.

I think thibs messed up by pulling Kemba out of the rotation so early. Now it’s going to be difficult to do that again. So duece may not get his chance.

Martin where we disagree, is making the playoffs is better for duece development than duece actually playing meaningful minutes in an nba game. I disagree with that.

But for the most part I agree with everything else without going into a long reply.

nyvector16 wrote:Crazy we are still in limbo on a point guard and have to suffer through games without a playmaker and we have McBride sitting at the end of the bench doing nothing.

I would love to be wrong but I don't think he is ready yet. He will show flashes but I think with hard work next year he can make the jump. I am for giving him some time but he will be inconsistent.

blkexec wrote:I think thibs messed up by pulling Kemba out of the rotation so early. Now it’s going to be difficult to do that again. So duece may not get his chance.

Martin where we disagree, is making the playoffs is better for duece development than duece actually playing meaningful minutes in an nba game. I disagree with that.

But for the most part I agree with everything else without going into a long reply.

Just to be sure: Making playoffs is better for Knicks team development, better for RJ and Randle and IQ and Mitch and Grimes development and has nothing to do with Duece.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:I think thibs messed up by pulling Kemba out of the rotation so early. Now it’s going to be difficult to do that again. So duece may not get his chance.

Martin where we disagree, is making the playoffs is better for duece development than duece actually playing meaningful minutes in an nba game. I disagree with that.

But for the most part I agree with everything else without going into a long reply.

Just to be sure: Making playoffs is better for Knicks team development, better for RJ and Randle and IQ and Mitch and Grimes development and has nothing to do with Duece.

Cause we all know Thibs ain't giving him minutes in playoffs

Sims is physically imposing on the GLeague but not the NBA. The ooow and AAAAH moments are there. But the smart Defense and any offense is not.

Mitch is putting the ball on the floor. Things are evolving with him. Its slow.
Taj gets the call as 3rd string. Perhaps next year that changes. Taj is important but limited.
At 23 Simms is very raw. Mitch is limited, but we know this. Norlens this season is a wash out. I hope it goes better going forward.

The coaches aren’t bullish on Deuce apparently

didn't realize he shot so poorly to go along with the 16 assists

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martin wrote:didn't realize he shot so poorly to go along with the 16 assists

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Yes, he's not perfect and thats an issue he needs to address. I could create the same issues with RJ on his Turnovers. Same with Randle. My point is, even the vets on this team are far from perfect. At some point, we need to sit the vets and release the deuce / sims. When? I don't know. Just frustrating to watch these vets perform less than expected.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:didn't realize he shot so poorly to go along with the 16 assists

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Yes, he's not perfect and thats an issue he needs to address. I could create the same issues with RJ on his Turnovers. Same with Randle. My point is, even the vets on this team are far from perfect. At some point, we need to sit the vets and release the deuce / sims. When? I don't know. Just frustrating to watch these vets perform less than expected.

I dont consider RJ a vet but don't like his TO's. And same with Randle. He's not a young gun but he is still also needs to figure out what he can do with his minutes.

RJ been playing great and the TO are symptomatic of a player playing more freely. Give it time. Its part of the process. He is playmaking more, shooting more, and TO more.
Randle Passing has evolved greatly the last few years. I'd say his inconsistancy by my view is he is doing different things with the ball. Some of it is very good and awful but to me its a growth.
Deuce is likely doing more playmaking. He came out shooting and if you can't do that in the nBA you better be contributing in different ways.

I'd like to see Rokas Jokubaitis get a shot @ Knicks PG before Deuce McBride. I like Deuce a lot as a younger prospect but what Rokas is doing in an elite European league is amazing and Rokas Jokubaitis is much more of a nature/pure PG than the likes of Deuce/IQ.

blkexec wrote:So let’s move this back to my point. Duece and sims. We need a PG correct? I agree sitting Kemba will hurt his value maybe but everybody knows what Kemba brings.

For sims to play, you decrease our centers value and I agree with that. So make a simple trade, shouldnt be hard to make room for sims.

Who would you trade a Kemba for? What makes you think Deuce is the answer? You would think Thibs would have given him some minutes with Rose and Kemba out if he did.

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:So let;s move this back to my point. Duece and sims. We need a PG correct? I agree sitting Kemba will hurt his value maybe but everybody knows what Kemba brings.

For sims to play, you decrease our centers value and I agree with that. So make a simple trade, shouldnt be hard to make room for sims.

Who would you trade a Kemba for? What makes you think Deuce is the answer? You would think Thibs would have given him some minutes with Rose and Kemba out if he did.

I agree. There is a big time difference of dominating a weak D-League in comparison to being ready for the NBA

Deuce hasn't been given many opportunities but he's had 4 games of at least 20+ minutes (20 minutes, 24 minutes, 24 minutes and 35 minutes).

And what did he do during those 4 games of opportunists to show his NBA worth as only a Rookie? Not much.

4 games.
26.2 Minutes per game.
7.5 Points per game.
3.5 Assists per game.
1.5 steals per game.
0.5 turnover per game.
0.3 Free Throw attempts per game.
FG% of .375%.
3PT% of .313%.

I really like his Defense and low turnover numbers. But that's about it. He struggles to score, has awful shooting numbers and he's not very good at driving to the rim either ala never gets to the FT line.

Imo he's not a natural/pure PG but more of a combo guard (we've already got one of those in I.Q) and he's most certainly no Kemba Walker.

He's just a Rookie. So I'm not being too hard on him. I'm just pointing out how A.) There's a big difference of D-League vs. NBA and B.) He just doesn't look ready @ PG and if asked to start and play a lot of minutes we'd probably lose a lot of games because of it.

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:So let’s move this back to my point. Duece and sims. We need a PG correct? I agree sitting Kemba will hurt his value maybe but everybody knows what Kemba brings.

For sims to play, you decrease our centers value and I agree with that. So make a simple trade, shouldnt be hard to make room for sims.

Who would you trade a Kemba for? What makes you think Deuce is the answer? You would think Thibs would have given him some minutes with Rose and Kemba out if he did.

Don't know. What I do know is Kemba is a short term rental. And we can't find out if Duece is the answer if he's at the end of the bench or playing in the G league, and not get NBA minutes. But Thibs played his card too early by removing Kemba from the rotation. I would've waited until it was clear that we are not going to make much noise in the playoffs. With Kemba or with Deuce, I believe our record will not change. Kemba is in and out of the rotation anyway. At lease Deuce will get some NBA experience. In both scenarios, with our without Kemba, we are losing in the first round (if we even make the playoffs). How does that help this kids development by sitting on the bench or playing against non NBA players for the rest of the season?

NYKMentality wrote:I'd like to see Rokas Jokubaitis get a shot @ Knicks PG before Deuce McBride. I like Deuce a lot as a younger prospect but what Rokas is doing in an elite European league is amazing and Rokas Jokubaitis is much more of a nature/pure PG than the likes of Deuce/IQ.

I'd like to see anybody get a shot at PG. This is not a Deuce arguement, but really play the damn rookies. Kemba just had a great game, and the first article I read is, "knicks need a PG". If Kemba is not the long term solution, and we are not making the playoffs or clearly not winning in the first round, whats the point in playing Kemba all season? For those that don't think Rokas, Deuce, or whoever else we have is not ready. My question is ready for what? To lose more games? I don't know about Rokas, but I would guess Rokas defense and especially Deuce defense is better than Kemba. Deuce is forcing up shots right now. With RJ and Randle on the team, he will be able to hit open shots instead of forced up shots.

I guess I'm on an island with this topic, but I never understood why the knicks continue to play vets towards the end of the season, when we clearly have nothing to fight for. Yes, RJ, Obi, Randle, and the rest of the yoots thats in the rotation, getting into the playoffs will be a great experience. I don't believe Kemba sways the needle for us. He's a good player, but clearly regardless if he plays good or bad, it's not adding up to victories. If thats the case, why not play Deuce? Thats my only point. If playing Kemba makes us a playoff team, and he can help us make some noise, sure you play Kemba. I'm not seeing that right now.

We will revisit this discussion after this long road schedule we are about to have.

blkexec wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:So let’s move this back to my point. Duece and sims. We need a PG correct? I agree sitting Kemba will hurt his value maybe but everybody knows what Kemba brings.

For sims to play, you decrease our centers value and I agree with that. So make a simple trade, shouldnt be hard to make room for sims.

Who would you trade a Kemba for? What makes you think Deuce is the answer? You would think Thibs would have given him some minutes with Rose and Kemba out if he did.

Don't know. What I do know is Kemba is a short term rental. And we can't find out if Duece is the answer if he's at the end of the bench or playing in the G league, and not get NBA minutes. But Thibs played his card too early by removing Kemba from the rotation. I would've waited until it was clear that we are not going to make much noise in the playoffs. With Kemba or with Deuce, I believe our record will not change. Kemba is in and out of the rotation anyway. At lease Deuce will get some NBA experience. In both scenarios, with our without Kemba, we are losing in the first round (if we even make the playoffs). How does that help this kids development by sitting on the bench or playing against non NBA players for the rest of the season?

I do not think that Thib's job is to "Develop" second-round picks. Nor is it to give those players minutes, if not earned. His job is to win games. At least until the Knicks are out of the playoffs. Maybe that is when "hopefuls" can get some experience. Thibs is playing the guys he feels gives him the best chance to win. Unfortunately, that is not Deuce.

Agree that Kemba is a short-term rental. So did Rose and Thibs given the minor investment. Also agree that he was taken out of the rotation too early. But to be fair, defensive stats showed a lot of concern and Kemba was having trouble blending in. In any case, it seems to have had a positive effect on his play. So that is a positive.

In terms of who can Kemba be traded for, do not think it will be the type of player that can go on a shooting streak like we saw the last few games from Kemba. Nor have I seen anyone on the trading block that is considerably better. Think the Knicks were hoping that someone would be selling at this point. But just do not see anyone worth giving up assets for. Pacers are rumored to want Fox in Sabonis trade. Fox a kid shooting 25% from three? Brunson will be available in the summer so why trade assets now? And to be honest, feel he is one of those players that will not live up to expectations or his new costly deal. Watch a lot of Mavs ball. He disappears for long stretches. Good energy and penetrates well but have not seen enough to justify his predicted contract. Fans here got to see him recently and I am sure were expecting much more. Lavert is available f=but rumor has it they are asking for a 1st and a good young player. Is he worth that? Maybe but not a guarantee to get back to the way he was playing on the Nets. Definitely do not want us blowing up the roster and sending several picks for guys like Simmons or Wall. Think that is the Knicks of the past.

blkexec wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:I'd like to see Rokas Jokubaitis get a shot @ Knicks PG before Deuce McBride. I like Deuce a lot as a younger prospect but what Rokas is doing in an elite European league is amazing and Rokas Jokubaitis is much more of a nature/pure PG than the likes of Deuce/IQ.

I'd like to see anybody get a shot at PG. This is not a Deuce arguement, but really play the damn rookies. Kemba just had a great game, and the first article I read is, "knicks need a PG". If Kemba is not the long term solution, and we are not making the playoffs or clearly not winning in the first round, whats the point in playing Kemba all season? For those that don't think Rokas, Deuce, or whoever else we have is not ready. My question is ready for what? To lose more games? I don't know about Rokas, but I would guess Rokas defense and especially Deuce defense is better than Kemba. Deuce is forcing up shots right now. With RJ and Randle on the team, he will be able to hit open shots instead of forced up shots.

I guess I'm on an island with this topic, but I never understood why the knicks continue to play vets towards the end of the season, when we clearly have nothing to fight for. Yes, RJ, Obi, Randle, and the rest of the yoots thats in the rotation, getting into the playoffs will be a great experience. I don't believe Kemba sways the needle for us. He's a good player, but clearly regardless if he plays good or bad, it's not adding up to victories. If thats the case, why not play Deuce? Thats my only point. If playing Kemba makes us a playoff team, and he can help us make some noise, sure you play Kemba. I'm not seeing that right now.

We will revisit this discussion after this long road schedule we are about to have.

OR, or the coach can pass on the very Fizdale leaning mentality of just throwing players out there without earning a spot.

Last year Thibs set a high standard for his players and they responded and a culture and bar was set. Throw that out just to satisfy fans thirst for not being patient?

Thibs just broke 7 years of not getting to the playoffs and .500 ball but let's give up on that cause of mild curiosity of playing Deuce? Bring back that losing mentality?

You add in an undeserved rookie into the rotations - and I'm assuming IQ and McBride are bumped up to the PGs while Kemba sits - and you wreck team chances at winning as well as keeping the ever so fragile tethers of Randle and RJ playing well along with Mitch? You will ruin THEIR development. You think Randle is gonna be happy with 2 PGs who can't run an offense? Good chance Fournier goes in the shitter too.

IQ doesn't yet know how to manage a zone. He barely knows how to keep his dribble in traffic. Deuce had one good showing and one very big dud. And he would have even more duds as the league figures him out. Just stay in front of both cause neither has enough foot speed to break down his man.

Lets trade back for Knox cause he was used to that system on not earning a spot.

Or maybe the Knicks are doing well in giving McBride every opportunity to earn NBA minutes as a second round pick while highlighting him and Jericho in the GLeague. You know, what Miami does. It's called development.

blkexec wrote:I guess I'm on an island with this topic, but I never understood why the knicks continue to play vets towards the end of the season, when we clearly have nothing to fight for.

Come on man.

Did the Knicks not have anything to fight for last year while at 25-27 overall and two games below .500 (after 52 games); before finishing 10 games above .500 and an Eastern Conference 4th seed?

We still have plenty to fight for here in the Eastern Conference and more importantly is giving our trio of R.J. Barrett/Julius Randle/Coach Thibs an opportunity to redeem themselves come postseason play and this time alongside of Mitchell Robinson (because Atlanta doesn't eliminate us round 1 with Mitchell Robinson as our starting Center).

And it would be awesome for the likes of Immanuel Quickley/Quentin Grimes/Obi Toppin to gain playoff experience because NBA stars can only become born come postseason play.

Nothing left to fight for? Come on man.

Knicks are only...

▪︎ 7.0 games back of Chicago for the 1st seed (who've lost 4/5 games).

▪︎ 7.0 games back of Miami Heat for the 2nd seed (who I'm still not sold on being able to keep it up).

▪︎ 6.5 games behind Brooklyn for the 3rd seed (who's now without Kevin Durant for a long time + Kyrie Irving (during BKs home games and will soon fall off the map because of it).

▪︎ Only 5.0 games back of the defending champion Milwaukee Bucks for the 4th seed.

▪︎ Only 4.5 games back of Philadelphia for the 5th seed.

▪︎ And only 4.5 games back of the 6th seed Cleveland Cavaliers (with still another 2 games against them head to head).

There is still plenty for NYK to fight for and it's up to our players to fight for it because we're only 1 game below .500 after 45 games (and with still another 37 games renaming within a jam packed Eastern Conference).

We're literally a 5 game winning streak away from making noise while climbing up the Eastern Conference Standings.

Nalod wrote:RJ been playing great and the TO are symptomatic of a player playing more freely. Give it time. Its part of the process. He is playmaking more, shooting more, and TO more.
Randle Passing has evolved greatly the last few years. I'd say his inconsistancy by my view is he is doing different things with the ball. Some of it is very good and awful but to me its a growth.
Deuce is likely doing more playmaking. He came out shooting and if you can't do that in the nBA you better be contributing in different ways.

I agree with this. I think the freedom RJ is working with is a positive. He seems to have the maturity to handle the ball. I am hoping he uses that strength to get the basket AND draw contact a bit more, but will settle for him driving to the basket. He seems to know when to pass the ball and its not because he dribbled the ball for 14 seconds and didn't feel comfortable forcing an 18 ft turnaround jumpshot. Its more cause he see the coverage collapsing on him and finds the open man. He will get even better with that despite the turnovers now.