DLeethal wrote:martin wrote:
I am not a fire Thibs advocate, but this logic would have led to Toronto NOT hiring Nurse and GSW NOT hiring Kerr and CLE NOT hiring Atkinson. All 3 of those teams fired coaches that took gutter teams to 50 wins.
sure... don't forget how Rick Carlisle built up the Pistons but Larry Brown won a title with them. The problem is all those examples are arbitrary because there are more examples of coaches being let go and the team doesnt get any better at all.
Like it's also know many of these guys are not great to work with. Carlisle is a notorious asshole. So is Budholzter. Spoe has a couple good playoff runs mostly behind Butler playing out of his mind and his jock gets ridden like nothing else.
In game coaching is nice but it's not college. It's 82 games and 7 game series and the good ones never panic (see Pat Riley Knicks vs Rockets finals
)
Biggest thing for me is the players. They are always IT, so are we getting the most of them and from them. That's the part that has me saying "great coach." We have seen vets elevate wildly, young guys blossom, b2b 50 win season and b2b advancing in the playoffs.
You look at this with perspective and pre-emptive statements suggesting Thibs should go if they dont ______ is internet fodder for clicks. Good thing is it's super clear Leon is not impacting by any of the chatter and they do their own thing. What a turn around.
GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:martin wrote:It's not that hard, find the problem, fix the problem.martin wrote:
Shit! Logic and perspective. Gustav is going to block that guy
What did Thibs have for breakfast?
he prolly skipped breakfast and is busy working in the gym with OG.
Since you have your head so far up his ass, you would be the first to know. Calling me out every day cause Im not part of the "cult". Get bent.
you have it wrong (again)
Your comments are fun... it's low hanging fruit and I like that in my oatmeal.
How are thing in the Kolek fan club goink?
DLeethal wrote:martin wrote:
I am not a fire Thibs advocate, but this logic would have led to Toronto NOT hiring Nurse and GSW NOT hiring Kerr and CLE NOT hiring Atkinson. All 3 of those teams fired coaches that took gutter teams to 50 wins.
You can also look at particular circumstances and come away with a different take. Toronto won because of Kawhi (Nurse didn't do anything after that one player and hasn't done anything since at all and we all should wonder what the heck he wasn't doing with OG's development), GSW made the right move because it was the right move cause Jackson was literally trashing his own locker room, and Atkinson has been fantastic so far but really is TDB for playoffs.
And let's be fair with the likes both Mazulla and Atkinson, they have both taken over very very stout rosters - 4+ all stars in their starting lineups and groups of guys that have been together for years.
The Knicks as a whole are moving forward, you don't mess with that.
fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:martin wrote:It's not that hard, find the problem, fix the problem.martin wrote:
Shit! Logic and perspective. Gustav is going to block that guy
What did Thibs have for breakfast?
he prolly skipped breakfast and is busy working in the gym with OG.
Since you have your head so far up his ass, you would be the first to know. Calling me out every day cause Im not part of the "cult". Get bent.
you have it wrong (again)Your comments are fun... it's low hanging fruit and I like that in my oatmeal.
How are thing in the Kolek fan club goink?
Most of the time you arent responding to anything I wrote. You are just calling me out at random. I dont mind when it isnt every fucking day. Keyboard Commander BS.
As far as Kolek, plenty of fans on this board. And for good reason.
was thinking about what a loser KG was always getting bounced in the first round. Then I remember that one really good Wolves team w/ Spree was also his last time making the playoffs w/ Minn.
Any how check out those minutes! Spree/Cassel were old man.. it's like these guys didnt care 
https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea...
On a side note that finals loss to the Spurs and Spree having all those big games still leaves a pang
👀
Every development coach isn’t always the championship coach. Ride it out and see what happens. But if the playoffs is bad we have to make some critical changes. Coach player both, something has to change.
Unless we have a stunning transformation in the playoffs, one that we haven’t been able to achieve in 79 regular seasons games, we are headed towards at best another second round exit. The way we have showed to be incapable of rising to the elite level of other teams, with the main issue being the defense and the decisions in crunch time, things a coach heavily impacts, I’d really be fine with a change at the helm. Thibs is a good developmental coach, but he seems to be too stubborn to raise his and his team’s level to that elite status. So, this is not a “hate Thibs”, but more of a “we need to step up and I doubt staying put will make a difference.”
I’m kinda bummed that this team, an upgrade on paper to last season, is simply incapable of leveling up no matter how hard they try. I believe they can get there, but one or two things need to change and one of them is probably the coach.
Knicksfan wrote:Unless we have a stunning transformation in the playoffs, one that we haven’t been able to achieve in 79 regular seasons games, we are headed towards at best another second round exit. The way we have showed to be incapable of rising to the elite level of other teams, with the main issue being the defense and the decisions in crunch time, things a coach heavily impacts, I’d really be fine with a change at the helm. Thibs is a good developmental coach, but he seems to be too stubborn to raise his and his team’s level to that elite status. So, this is not a “hate Thibs”, but more of a “we need to step up and I doubt staying put will make a difference.”I’m kinda bummed that this team, an upgrade on paper to last season, is simply incapable of leveling up no matter how hard they try. I believe they can get there, but one or two things need to change and one of them is probably the coach.
We play scared
Also
More deuce in some spots would’ve helped.
Thibs did some good subs like pull towns and sub in Mitch.
Then Mitch wasn’t in crunch time. I hope that’s a smoke screen cause we can’t win if towns is playing center most times against the Celtics. Celtics will exploit both JB and Towns in a pick and roll.
Good news? This team with a healthy Mitch and others being healthy, only played like 5-6 games together. Vs the Celtics who are deeper and former champs, played together multiple years. With a deeper roster. And a flexible coach willing to be unconventional and adaptable.
So everybody needs to step up including Thibs. Lots of pressure on him (been saying that since game one) but if this team wants it bad enough, stop playing scared when facing the elite teams.
The concept of a coach hitting a ceiling with a team is valid.
But what are the variables?
Roster changes.
Depth.
Injuries
At what point is it reasonable to make a change? What are the issues if any? How long has the core been together and have they tuned their coach out.
Not like this care has been together for 3 years and can't move on yet roster depth keeps improving. Not like team has stopped playing for the coach or has locker room issues that we can see.
Media likes to stir up debates and fans love it.
Nalod wrote:
The concept of a coach hitting a ceiling with a team is valid.
But what are the variables? Roster changes.
Depth.
Injuries
At what point is it reasonable to make a change? What are the issues if any? How long has the core been together and have they tuned their coach out.
Not like this care has been together for 3 years and can't move on yet roster depth keeps improving. Not like team has stopped playing for the coach or has locker room issues that we can see.
Media likes to stir up debates and fans love it.
Agree.
Simply..It’s about results vs expectations.
Believe expectations were to have a solid record and be one of the top teams in the East.
We did that.
However, expectations, when Bridges and KAT were brought over and JB and OG extended, were to get deeper in playoffs and compete for conference finals.
That has yet to be seen.
As much as I like/wanted Thibs, if he doesn’t make it past first round, his job is in jeopardy.
blkexec wrote:Knicksfan wrote:Unless we have a stunning transformation in the playoffs, one that we haven’t been able to achieve in 79 regular seasons games, we are headed towards at best another second round exit. The way we have showed to be incapable of rising to the elite level of other teams, with the main issue being the defense and the decisions in crunch time, things a coach heavily impacts, I’d really be fine with a change at the helm. Thibs is a good developmental coach, but he seems to be too stubborn to raise his and his team’s level to that elite status. So, this is not a “hate Thibs”, but more of a “we need to step up and I doubt staying put will make a difference.”I’m kinda bummed that this team, an upgrade on paper to last season, is simply incapable of leveling up no matter how hard they try. I believe they can get there, but one or two things need to change and one of them is probably the coach.
We play scared
Also
More deuce in some spots would’ve helped.
Thibs did some good subs like pull towns and sub in Mitch.
Then Mitch wasn’t in crunch time. I hope that’s a smoke screen cause we can’t win if towns is playing center most times against the Celtics. Celtics will exploit both JB and Towns in a pick and roll.
Good news? This team with a healthy Mitch and others being healthy, only played like 5-6 games together. Vs the Celtics who are deeper and former champs, played together multiple years. With a deeper roster. And a flexible coach willing to be unconventional and adaptable.
So everybody needs to step up including Thibs. Lots of pressure on him (been saying that since game one) but if this team wants it bad enough, stop playing scared when facing the elite teams.
Reason why I feel, Mitch at 5 and Towns at 4 is the way to go.
Mitch on KP makes it hard for KP to hit all those threes.
IMO, better lineup with JB, Bridges/Hart and JB
HofstraBBall wrote:Nalod wrote:
The concept of a coach hitting a ceiling with a team is valid.
But what are the variables? Roster changes.
Depth.
Injuries
At what point is it reasonable to make a change? What are the issues if any? How long has the core been together and have they tuned their coach out.
Not like this care has been together for 3 years and can't move on yet roster depth keeps improving. Not like team has stopped playing for the coach or has locker room issues that we can see.
Media likes to stir up debates and fans love it.
Agree.
Simply..It’s about results vs expectations.
Believe expectations were to have a solid record and be one of the top teams in the East.
We did that.
However, expectations, when Bridges and KAT were brought over and JB and OG extended, were to get deeper in playoffs and compete for conference finals.
That has yet to be seen.
As much as I like/wanted Thibs, if he doesn’t make it past first round, his job is in jeopardy.
Your not wrong but what are the variables? I mean if KAT and Brunson get injured, thats one thing.
We simply have no answer to a nice piston team we are clearly better than then perhaps its warranted.
Nalod wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Nalod wrote:
The concept of a coach hitting a ceiling with a team is valid.
But what are the variables? Roster changes.
Depth.
Injuries
At what point is it reasonable to make a change? What are the issues if any? How long has the core been together and have they tuned their coach out.
Not like this care has been together for 3 years and can't move on yet roster depth keeps improving. Not like team has stopped playing for the coach or has locker room issues that we can see.
Media likes to stir up debates and fans love it.
Agree.
Simply..It’s about results vs expectations.
Believe expectations were to have a solid record and be one of the top teams in the East.
We did that.
However, expectations, when Bridges and KAT were brought over and JB and OG extended, were to get deeper in playoffs and compete for conference finals.
That has yet to be seen.
As much as I like/wanted Thibs, if he doesn’t make it past first round, his job is in jeopardy.
Your not wrong but what are the variables? I mean if KAT and Brunson get injured, thats one thing.
We simply have no answer to a nice piston team we are clearly better than then perhaps its warranted.
Totally agree. Injuries aside.
But if we lose to the Pistons, despite all our heavily invested pieces. That’s a problem
Knicksfan wrote:Unless we have a stunning transformation in the playoffs, one that we haven’t been able to achieve in 79 regular seasons games, we are headed towards at best another second round exit. The way we have showed to be incapable of rising to the elite level of other teams, with the main issue being the defense and the decisions in crunch time, things a coach heavily impacts, I’d really be fine with a change at the helm. Thibs is a good developmental coach, but he seems to be too stubborn to raise his and his team’s level to that elite status. So, this is not a “hate Thibs”, but more of a “we need to step up and I doubt staying put will make a difference.”I’m kinda bummed that this team, an upgrade on paper to last season, is simply incapable of leveling up no matter how hard they try. I believe they can get there, but one or two things need to change and one of them is probably the coach.
Knicks defense is predicated on the final piece in Mitch; I don't think it's a stretch to assume a rim protecting player has always been a core role for the team. Mitch has only played a month and sat out aplenty during that stretch with minutes limitation and no back-to-backs, so it's still a small sample, but in that time, the Knicks are a top 10 defense, ranked #7. Over the season, they have bopped up to #13. #5 for offense, #8 Net. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced...
Knicks have also developed one of the best closers in the game in Brunson, he will probably win the Clutch award or whatnot and that has resulted in late game wins.
Objectively, Thibs is exactly what you are looking for but perhaps you are grading on a 1 game curve here against Boston? Perhaps you can help me with where you are getting your conclusions from.
I'm also glad Thibs is firmly in the development coach spectrum now, it took fans too long to get there.
I find the main issue with the team is their lack of time together, whether it be the bench, Mitch/KAT lineup or just a full rotation all healthy at the same time. Isn't that the real issue? Wasn't last night literally one of the first times the whole season we saw the full team rotation? Or am I mistaken?
Do you feel like the Knicks have had a good enough go with their full rotation or not so much?
The Knicks were inevitably going to meet either the Champions or one of the best team in the league in the second round. They are not a different team if it so happened they didn't run into one of those teams until ECF.
blkexec wrote:👀Every development coach isn’t always the championship coach. Ride it out and see what happens. But if the playoffs is bad we have to make some critical changes. Coach player both, something has to change.
In 4 years Thibs went from a win-only coach to a development-only coach who may have forgotten how to win-only. Or something.
martin wrote:blkexec wrote:👀Every development coach isn’t always the championship coach. Ride it out and see what happens. But if the playoffs is bad we have to make some critical changes. Coach player both, something has to change.
In 4 years Thibs went from a win-only coach to a development-only coach who may have forgotten how to win-only. Or something.
I see him as a first rate rebuilding coach, but no real track record beyond that. Why he is the winningest coach never to get to the Finals. ‘Developmental” sounds like Thibs is taking the long view, but I would argue the opposite. Thibs is about making the team competitive ASAP. Which is why he keeps getting hired despite the lack of postseason success.
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:blkexec wrote:👀Every development coach isn’t always the championship coach. Ride it out and see what happens. But if the playoffs is bad we have to make some critical changes. Coach player both, something has to change.
In 4 years Thibs went from a win-only coach to a development-only coach who may have forgotten how to win-only. Or something.
I see him as a first rate rebuilding coach, but no real track record beyond that. Why he is the winningest coach never to get to the Finals. ‘Developmental” sounds like Thibs is taking the long view, but I would argue the opposite. Thibs is about making the team competitive ASAP. Which is why he keeps getting hired despite the lack of postseason success.
Given this personnel, what changes can Thibs make to get this team to the finals? I don't see it. We don't have the shooting to reach the finals as constructed.
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:blkexec wrote:👀Every development coach isn’t always the championship coach. Ride it out and see what happens. But if the playoffs is bad we have to make some critical changes. Coach player both, something has to change.
In 4 years Thibs went from a win-only coach to a development-only coach who may have forgotten how to win-only. Or something.
I see him as a first rate rebuilding coach, but no real track record beyond that. Why he is the winningest coach never to get to the Finals. ‘Developmental” sounds like Thibs is taking the long view, but I would argue the opposite. Thibs is about making the team competitive ASAP. Which is why he keeps getting hired despite the lack of postseason success.
How is this not more obvious? Derrick Rose hurt his knee. I don't know why you couldn't have figured that out on your own.
Outside of that, it was time with Minny and NY and literally no one expected either of those teams to get to the Finals. So why is that your criteria? Or did you expect those teams to flourish in the playoffs? Like, remove head from the hole in the ground.
The way you contort your arguments reminds me of a eastern European gymnast from the 70's
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:blkexec wrote:👀Every development coach isn’t always the championship coach. Ride it out and see what happens. But if the playoffs is bad we have to make some critical changes. Coach player both, something has to change.
In 4 years Thibs went from a win-only coach to a development-only coach who may have forgotten how to win-only. Or something.
I see him as a first rate rebuilding coach, but no real track record beyond that. Why he is the winningest coach never to get to the Finals. ‘Developmental” sounds like Thibs is taking the long view, but I would argue the opposite. Thibs is about making the team competitive ASAP. Which is why he keeps getting hired despite the lack of postseason success.
How is this not more obvious? Derrick Rose hurt his knee. I don't know why you couldn't have figured that out on your own.
Outside of that, it was time with Minny and NY and literally no one expected either of those teams to get to the Finals. So why is that your criteria? Or did you expect those teams to flourish in the playoffs? Like, remove head from the hole in the ground.
The way you contort your arguments reminds me of a eastern European gymnast from the 70's
Right, because you know for a fact that Rose would have taken them to the Finals. And how long ago was that? Talk about a reach Nadia.
14 years of coaching since then. Coaches get fired one or two years after winning a chip. And you're hanging your hat on something that happened more than a decade ago.
My criteria is 14 years of coaching since his last conference Finals where he's had not just a say as a coach, but as the team president. At what point does Thibs bear any responsibility for his playoff record?
