Knicks · Fire Thibs (page 56)
fishmike wrote:blkexec wrote:that did not in any way answer my question. In fact you just devalued any notion of Thibs accountability by not answering the question.fishmike wrote:blkexec wrote:accountable for what exactly? The b2b 50 win seasons? Advancing in b2b season for the first time 30 years? Player development? Literally every measuring stick for progress has been positive with this coach. So please quantify the bold.martin wrote:blkexec wrote:👀Every development coach isn’t always the championship coach. Ride it out and see what happens. But if the playoffs is bad we have to make some critical changes. Coach player both, something has to change.
In 4 years Thibs went from a win-only coach to a development-only coach who may have forgotten how to win-only. Or something.
If a team continues to fall short of it's playoff potential and you continue to see the same mistakes and weaknesses, even after some major roster changes, the only option is to remove the head coach. Especially when and if the roster doesn't have any more room for changes, and we are locked in with this roster for the most part. Coaching changes is the next best thing to do. Thats any sport.
On a separate note, Im curious to know the answer to a question Gus presented to all die hard Thibs fans. When will Thibs be held accountable? Is that even possible? Seems like if he farts wrong, it's an issue with the fans or players.
Take Deuce for example. I'm probably the biggest fan on this board. Guess what, he still have some negatives and if we trade him to improve the team, trade him. You can love a player or coach and still agree if removing that player or coach helps the team reach it's potential.
Thibs can be a great win now coach....Great development coach.....And still be the guy you remove, if it helps increase the potential of the teams growth. Not sure why this is hard to understand. There's no hate for Thibs.....just like there's no hate for Deuce, who's still learning how to be a PG.
BTW....If Thibs played Deuce more against Boston, I believe we would've won. Lets see how Thibs manages Deuce mins going forward in the playoffs. He's the key to our success (in my opinion), along with Wright. We need pt guard defense, cause Mikal aint the answer.
Seems straight forward to me. Nothing else to add. Leon has done a great job building this team. But this question can also turn to Leon. Some believe we were better with Randle and Divo. Some believe this is a 2nd round at best team. If the goal is to win a chip, 2nd round is not a chip. Now there are questions if we even get out of the first round. So my question stands for Thibs, Leon, Towns, JB.....Until we win it all, there's always room for improvements.
Again... it's year 5 now. What is it specifically you are looking for Thibs to be held accountable for?
Feels like you are pushing some agenda with these words... like this guy is getting away with something. What would that be exactly? Inquiring minds want to know.
I can’t be any clearer than what I already said. Maybe you’ll get whatever answer you looking for after the playoffs.
ccch wrote:If we exit early in the 1st round it might be time to move on from Thibs. His substitution patterns have been questionable.
You know whats interesting. You made this post 4 days ago, and no response. Without mentioning names, if another poster said the same thing, everybody will be all over him.
I agree with you but only one caveat. How did we lose? Was it substitutions? or the players failed to step up. Unless Thibs has lost the locker-room, I doubt Leon fires him. BUT, there needs to be changes if we lose. I've heard from a knicks fan sitting behind the coach, that the coaching staff doesn't say much during games. We don't know what they do in practice, but I would expect to see some offensive coordinator coach or player change. Or do we ride it out, bring everybody back and hope chemistry covers our issues.
What could be on the line for Tom Thibodeau and the Knicks during this year's playoffs?"As noted on this week’s Putback, the stakes are high for Tom Thibodeau entering the playoffs. If the Knicks beat Detroit and are competitive in the second round against Boston, I’d assume Thibodeau will be fine.
Given Thibodeau’s success in New York, this is the most likely scenario. But if the Knicks struggle against Detroit or are noncompetitive in the second round against Boston, there will be tough conversations about the franchise’s next steps.
The post-mortem analysis will include an assessment of Thibodeau. Would the Knicks' head coach survive a subpar playoff performance?
It all depends on how team president Leon Rose and owner James Dolan view the season.
...
He is also under contract for four more seasons. Earlier in the season, I thought Thibodeau would survive any playoff shortcomings and be back next season. But that’s not the case anymore. I think anything is on the table if the Knicks struggle in the playoffs, including a coaching change."
- @IanBegley
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Knicks Fans Shouldn’t Be This Miserable
By Will Leitch,The period since the COVID-bubble season has been among the most successful in Knicks history: The five post-COVID years have encompassed 226 regular-season wins, the most over a five-year stretch since 1992 to 1997. It has also been the most joyous period since the ’90s: The Knicks have been a feel-good story for nearly the entire Tom Thibodeau coaching era, from “Bing Bong” to the Nova Knicks. They finally won a first-round playoff series this century, then did so again. But beyond that, it has felt good to be a Knicks fan because the Knicks have felt like something they have never, ever felt like — they have felt insurgent. These were not the lumbering collection of Jim Dolan past-their-prime expensive veteran misfit toys of the past 20 years. The Knicks were fun. The Knicks! Were fun!
The fun ended this year. These Knicks have felt vaguely disappointing from the season’s very beginning. They have battled injuries up and down the roster, including a full month without Jalen Brunson. They have played middling, uninspired defense. Faced with loud criticism that he is giving his veterans too many minutes (a possible reason for all the injuries), Thibodeau has stubbornly refused to make adjustments. The team is 0-8 against the top two in the Eastern Conference, Cleveland and Boston. The Knicks begin their playoff run against the Pistons at Madison Square Garden on Saturday, but if you run into a fan this week, you’re likely to find them grouchy, morose, and pessimistic. “The regular season — perhaps mercifully — is over,” wrote Jonathan Macri, a reliable fan-base bellwether, in his excellent Knicks newsletter this week.
You may be surprised, then, to learn that these Knicks are actually the best post-COVID team yet. They won the most games (51) of the lot, they will likely land two players on the All-NBA team (Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns), and they are extremely well positioned against the Pistons, a feisty and spirited team that is nevertheless only a year removed from the longest losing streak in NBA history. This year’s Knicks, thanks to the addition of Towns and Mikal Bridges, would absolutely destroy last year’s inspirational Nova Knicks; there hasn’t been a Knicks team better constructed to win a title since Patrick Ewing was here. Yet everyone’s so mad!
The problem, as it does so often, comes down to expectations. When the Knicks traded Julius Randle and (Nova Knick) Donte DiVincenzo to the Timberwolves for Towns, then traded a bushel of draft picks to the Nets for Bridges (using the stash they’d been accumulating for years to acquire a superstar), the understanding was the Knicks had reached their completed form — they were ready to win a championship right then and there, and this was the team we had all been waiting for. They had been so patient, so careful not to make the rash, stupid move Dolan always pushed for in the past, that the Towns and Bridges trades took on an unsustainable weight. It wasn’t charming just to make the playoffs anymore or even to win a round or two: The Knicks had to be champions, now, or all this time was wasted and they would just be the same old Knicks again. And as good as the Knicks have been this year (and I keep saying this to every downtrodden Knicks fan I find — they have been good!), they have not looked like championship contenders, especially against the likes of Boston, who loom in the second round of the playoffs.
Several reasonable factors explain why the Knicks haven’t seemed to make a monumental leap. One is that it’s the first season featuring the Knicks’ dramatically rejiggered roster, one that is playing a different style from last year’s and hasn’t quite gotten it all figured out yet. (It should be noted that the Celtics had several face-plants before winning their title last year.) Another is that Bridges has been a little disappointing as the final piece of that puzzle. Another is injuries. And then there’s the simple fact that winning a championship is really hard.
But the answer everyone seems to be settling on? The coach. The Knicks’ turnaround of late has been in many ways directly attributable to Thibodeau, whose high-intensity, every-game-matters approach provided a direction for a franchise that sorely needed one. But as has happened at Thibodeau’s other stops (Chicago and Minnesota), eventually his approach tends to grind teams down and wear a little thin. The man has a habit of staying a year or two past his welcome. You’ve clearly seen that with Knicks fans this year, who have blamed Thibodeau for the injuries, the defensive issues, the lack of offensive creativity, the exhaustion with Ben Stiller’s tweets. And it does make sense. The Knicks could likely benefit from some fresh eyes on this team, one that is built to win in a way (essentially, to copy the Celtics) that is not necessarily Thibodeau’s inherent forte. If the Knicks don’t make it past Boston — or, God forbid, lose to the Pistons in the first round — it’s not difficult to see Thibodeau taking the fall and not entirely without reason.
Yet that’s still not the explanation for this outstanding season having felt so unsatisfying. The reason is the Knicks have reached the point where they have compiled enough talent — and it should be noted just how fantastic Towns, long derided by the fan base as a potential trade target, has truly been — that there’s nowhere left to go but to win a championship. Ten NBA teams could theoretically win a title this year, and the Knicks are one of them. They’re not the favorites, far from it, and the most likely scenario is a second-round exit to the Celtics, Thibodeau being fired, and all sorts of fear and loathing in the Knicks’ front office. But the reason all this stress and scowling is happening is because the Knicks are so good! Have we forgotten what the past 30 years of being a Knicks fan has been like? That we can find ourselves disappointed by a 51-win season is a measure of just how far we’ve come. Usually around this time of year, Knicks fans are wondering which team will select a future superstar in the NBA Draft with a pick the Knicks traded away for some expensive old guy with bad knees. Instead, we’re discussing how the vibes on this historically excellent Knicks team just don’t feel right. That’s progress. That’s actually pretty amazing.
The Knicks feel slightly disappointing relative to expectations. But that’s only because they’ve been awesome enough to get our expectations so high in the first place. That makes right now — even without Bing Bong, even with everybody’s shoulders slouched — as good a time to be a Knicks fan as it has been in a long, long while. The Knicks are in the playoffs! They’ve got a chance to win a title! Or at least a series! C’mon! Knicks fans have been through nothing but misery for so long. These are the good times. Try to enjoy them.
Generically, every team tries to be the best that they can and that typically can mean best record but it doesn't have to be. For instance, for developing teams, it could mean playing and developing Wemby in the best way for him and the team, which would include limiting his minutes (and thus their record) and tanking to ensure better picks for last year and this year.
What was the goal and then expectations of the coaching staff in regards to their team this year? I don't think it was championship even though that is the ultimate goal for every team. Championship not a realistic goal for at least 20+ teams in the league but you ultimately shoot for that when the playoffs start for those teams that made it.
So really his fate may come down to Mitch staying healthy this playoffs IMO.
We blow both and Im honestly at my lowest confidence point of the season.
blkexec wrote:ccch wrote:If we exit early in the 1st round it might be time to move on from Thibs. His substitution patterns have been questionable.You know whats interesting. You made this post 4 days ago, and no response. Without mentioning names, if another poster said the same thing, everybody will be all over him.
I agree with you but only one caveat. How did we lose? Was it substitutions? or the players failed to step up. Unless Thibs has lost the locker-room, I doubt Leon fires him. BUT, there needs to be changes if we lose. I've heard from a knicks fan sitting behind the coach, that the coaching staff doesn't say much during games. We don't know what they do in practice, but I would expect to see some offensive coordinator coach or player change. Or do we ride it out, bring everybody back and hope chemistry covers our issues.
Keep reading the same thing by media about "hot seat". one said "another disappointment". Im not sure prevoius teams were expected to do much better. All losses are "disappointments". If you win 60plus games thats one thing. When you win 50 its not that high. Few years ago when we lost to ATL we were just one game in front of them in the seeding and they were pretty hot coming in. A lot of this is arbitrary.
Maybe there is a chemistry issue. Maybe a roster change is needed? Maybe its the coaching? Maybe the FO did not dial it in?
Some coaches style is to rant and rave on the sidelnes. Some do the instructions in time outs. Some prefer a veteran team with leadership sort things out themselves. They know what to do if well prepared and lord knows Thibian teams are that. Execution is on the players and if they own it, they can fix it. PHil Jax when coach of Bulls and Lakers wrote about this. He did very little yelling during the game.
Knicks go down, well then it all gets sorted from there. If not, lets see how it all pans out.
jskinny35 wrote:I'm somewhat mixed about Thibs...no denying he provided an identity/culture and gets the team to play hard. Last season in the playoffs I started to feel like he might be the coach that could only get us to a mid level status. Now I feel kinda bad as he may take the fall if we don't suceed and I actually think it's somewhat a set up to fail after the trade giving him Towns as his C. Everyone knows Thibs needs a Mitch-type center to anchor his defense and unless he's willing to play the twin towers (hope he does) consistently - is it really his fault that our defense is where it is? Not his fault we lost IHart, not his fault Mitch gets hurt a lot, etcSo really his fate may come down to Mitch staying healthy this playoffs IMO.
I guess we have to second guess what Leon intends. Is Leon the type of person who knows the team lost iHart and Mitch was not available for more than 75% of the season and is still not nearly in shape, does he hold that as insignificant to what both the regular season and the playoffs hold and how the team and coaching staff performed? Without much training camp, Thibs and staff had to completely remake both the defense and offense in real time while not practicing much the whole season. We know this too.
Maybe the Knicks never purely wanted to do the 5-out thing with Mitch off bench and KAT at the 5. Knicks purposely hired a defensive coach in Thibs but FO would hold him to that even though the FO knew those key defensive players aren't around? To me that seems strange.
What do we think both the regular season and playoff chances would be if Mitch were around for most of the regular season and somewhere near the shape he was in against Cleveland couple years back when he beasted on their whole team?
Is it really a coaching change that gets them to the next level or if bounced by Detroit a business decision to starphuch satisfying with a blood lust for change vs. keep developing the roster, culture, and tweaking the roster.
Looking ahead financially Boston might be in need of a small reboot. Clev I guess can keep that core together. Looking over our shoulder Indy and Orlando are on the rise still.
Too bad many fans are grumpy. Its been a fun season for the most part.
Nalod wrote:Very good article and perhaps its down to not what fans think, but the logic of it all.
Is it really a coaching change that gets them to the next level or if bounced by Detroit a business decision to starphuch satisfying with a blood lust for change vs. keep developing the roster, culture, and tweaking the roster.Looking ahead financially Boston might be in need of a small reboot. Clev I guess can keep that core together. Looking over our shoulder Indy and Orlando are on the rise still.
Too bad many fans are grumpy. Its been a fun season for the most part.
Huh.....too bad the fans are grumpy?......We sucked for an entire decade. Those of us thats old enough to remember the dark ages, have a good reason to be grumpy.
Yes, chemistry building is another strategy. Bring everybody back and hope chemistry fills the gaps or covers up the holes.
But some fans see how close we are and it's frustrating to be so close, yet so far. We definitely earned the respect amongst the NBA world. When you live outside of NYC, you hear the background noise. That noise is minimal now, because for once we have a competent team. For years, I couldn't wear Knicks gear without every other person saying something smart. That has changed since Leon arrived.
But Knick fans are very passionate and it's ok. Just watch how MSG will be rocking this weekend. Best fans in the NBA.
blkexec wrote:Nalod wrote:Very good article and perhaps its down to not what fans think, but the logic of it all.
Is it really a coaching change that gets them to the next level or if bounced by Detroit a business decision to starphuch satisfying with a blood lust for change vs. keep developing the roster, culture, and tweaking the roster.Looking ahead financially Boston might be in need of a small reboot. Clev I guess can keep that core together. Looking over our shoulder Indy and Orlando are on the rise still.
Too bad many fans are grumpy. Its been a fun season for the most part.
Huh.....too bad the fans are grumpy?......We sucked for an entire decade. Those of us thats old enough to remember the dark ages, have a good reason to be grumpy.
Yes, chemistry building is another strategy. Bring everybody back and hope chemistry fills the gaps or covers up the holes.
But some fans see how close we are and it's frustrating to be so close, yet so far. We definitely earned the respect amongst the NBA world. When you live outside of NYC, you hear the background noise. That noise is minimal now, because for once we have a competent team. For years, I couldn't wear Knicks gear without every other person saying something smart. That has changed since Leon arrived.
But Knick fans are very passionate and it's ok. Just watch how MSG will be rocking this weekend. Best fans in the NBA.
I said "Many fans". Not all. But someone a cranky Franky today?
But since we don't suck and out from the darkness, why not enjoy it?
There's a lot of things we are not. PHX for starters!!!!
Nalod wrote:blkexec wrote:Nalod wrote:Very good article and perhaps its down to not what fans think, but the logic of it all.
Is it really a coaching change that gets them to the next level or if bounced by Detroit a business decision to starphuch satisfying with a blood lust for change vs. keep developing the roster, culture, and tweaking the roster.Looking ahead financially Boston might be in need of a small reboot. Clev I guess can keep that core together. Looking over our shoulder Indy and Orlando are on the rise still.
Too bad many fans are grumpy. Its been a fun season for the most part.
Huh.....too bad the fans are grumpy?......We sucked for an entire decade. Those of us thats old enough to remember the dark ages, have a good reason to be grumpy.
Yes, chemistry building is another strategy. Bring everybody back and hope chemistry fills the gaps or covers up the holes.
But some fans see how close we are and it's frustrating to be so close, yet so far. We definitely earned the respect amongst the NBA world. When you live outside of NYC, you hear the background noise. That noise is minimal now, because for once we have a competent team. For years, I couldn't wear Knicks gear without every other person saying something smart. That has changed since Leon arrived.
But Knick fans are very passionate and it's ok. Just watch how MSG will be rocking this weekend. Best fans in the NBA.
I said "Many fans". Not all. But someone a cranky Franky today?
But since we don't suck and out from the darkness, why not enjoy it?
There's a lot of things we are not. PHX for starters!!!!
Not cranky. But nervous about this series and being exposed. Hope I’m wrong.
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jskinny35 wrote:I think we should play Cade with less switching and let him get his... better than when the opposing team's 3 pt shooting feels like Starks going "On Fire" in NBA Jam
Who do you put in Cade, Bridges or OG? I'd do OG if the Knicks didn't need his physicality against the Detroit front line. Also, the elephant in the room is there's only so much either guy can do if Kat is the backline defender. How comfortable are you guys hiding KAT on Tobias?
It may not matter if it’s OG or Mikal guarding Cade in the PnR well, it’ll matter what KAT is doing behind it that make OG or Mikal get back to his guy.
I’m right about Lopez, right?