Knicks · Minutes (page 1)

Not sure how far we can go with this topic, but I felt I could give it its own thread. A fair amount of criticism has been leveled at Coach Thibs for overplaying his team. i decided to look up the "minutes per game" stat and was surprised to see only one Knick in the top 25 in MPG -- Randle at #24.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-min...

"Load Management" seems to be a way to go these days. In baseball there is a lot of discussion of innings management yet major arm injuries are rife. There are those who feel pitchers should throw more not less. Apples and oranges but criticizing a coach for playing his NBA players 35 - 40 minutes a game seems misguided. Last night -- in a double OT granted -- the Dallas starting 5 all played about 50 minutes, Luka well over. Ancient Lebron James was right there.

As for the Thibs criticism, my opinion is it's just a reach to advance the anti-Thibs agenda.

I also think a lot of posters just repeat what they read here like an echo chamber without bothering to look up the facts.

Panos wrote:I also think a lot of posters just repeat what they read here like an echo chamber without bothering to look up the facts.

Yes

Panos wrote:I also think a lot of posters just repeat what they read here like an echo chamber without bothering to look up the facts.

I also think a lot of posters just look at stats instead of the game. Throw the stats in the trash and just watch the game.

Also, if this was about Thibs giving too many minutes to his players, that conversation is old, dead and gone (almost 2-3 years ago). But I'm sure people will talk about it over and over and over, because there's nothing else to talk about I guess, until the knicks make a spash move at the trade deadline.

What the knicks need to focus on is not what everybody else in the league is doing.

Whats important is getting the best out of the players we have period. And if giving them the league average in mins per game, is causing more missed free throws, TO's and bad play in the 4th. That means something has to change, thats it.

1. Get in shape
2. Reduce minutes
3. Make a trade

But to post a link then say the Thibs hate is overblown, is gas lighting. What are we trying to accomplish by bringing up a discussion that was dead 3yrs ago. Back when we hired Thibs, thats what label came with Thibs. And thats also when these links came out saying Thibs doesn't over play his players, according to the stats. So......... Why are we creating this thread again? Sorry I missed that part.

Since we digging up a 3 yr old discussion...

2019 – Timberwolves Roundup: Thibs’ minutes problem, and KAT as the future
“Both Thibs and some team members attributed the loss to poor shooting or effort, but there was another factor at play: fatigue. “
“Wolves fans (and everyone other casual observer of the NBA) know that Thibs simply can’t help but overplay his starters, and he is what he is as a coach at this moment in time, for better or for worse.”

2021 – New York Knicks Hurt By Minutes Distribution Under Tom Thibodeau
“This is a disappointing yet predictable pattern for the best and most trustworthy players on teams coached by new Knicks bench boss Tom Thibodeau, whose Chicago Bulls and Minnesota Timberwolves teams routinely had players lead the league in minutes played over the years.”

And there are more articles like this all over the internet during Thibs entire career. And if I'm not mistaken, I doubt any of these articles were written by knick fans. So whats the point of this thread again? Sorry for asking the same question.

blkexec wrote:

Panos wrote:I also think a lot of posters just repeat what they read here like an echo chamber without bothering to look up the facts.

I also think a lot of posters just look at stats instead of the game. Throw the stats in the trash and just watch the game.

Also, if this was about Thibs giving too many minutes to his players, that conversation is old, dead and gone (almost 2-3 years ago). But I'm sure people will talk about it over and over and over, because there's nothing else to talk about I guess, until the knicks make a spash move at the trade deadline.

What the knicks need to focus on is not what everybody else in the league is doing.

Whats important is getting the best out of the players we have period. And if giving them the league average in mins per game, is causing more missed free throws, TO's and bad play in the 4th. That means something has to change, thats it.

1. Get in shape
2. Reduce minutes
3. Make a trade

But to post a link then say the Thibs hate is overblown, is gas lighting. What are we trying to accomplish by bringing up a discussion that was dead 3yrs ago. Back when we hired Thibs, thats what label came with Thibs. And thats also when these links came out saying Thibs doesn't over play his players, according to the stats. So......... Why are we creating this thread again? Sorry I missed that part.

Gaslighting? Are we that sensitive here? Please. How dare I find an interesting stat and post it. And to claim there is no criticism currently of Thibs assignment of minutes -- that is just bulls#!t. Go to the Cam thread for starters. It's all over the place. Maybe not to the extent it was but still there. As I put it anti-Thibs agenda - but Thibs hate if you will - is a thing.

blkexec wrote:Since we digging up a 3 yr old discussion...

2019 – Timberwolves Roundup: Thibs’ minutes problem, and KAT as the future
“Both Thibs and some team members attributed the loss to poor shooting or effort, but there was another factor at play: fatigue. “
“Wolves fans (and everyone other casual observer of the NBA) know that Thibs simply can’t help but overplay his starters, and he is what he is as a coach at this moment in time, for better or for worse.”

2021 – New York Knicks Hurt By Minutes Distribution Under Tom Thibodeau
“This is a disappointing yet predictable pattern for the best and most trustworthy players on teams coached by new Knicks bench boss Tom Thibodeau, whose Chicago Bulls and Minnesota Timberwolves teams routinely had players lead the league in minutes played over the years.”

And there are more articles like this all over the internet during Thibs entire career. And if I'm not mistaken, I doubt any of these articles were written by knick fans. So whats the point of this thread again? Sorry for asking the same question.

Uh, that Thib's minutes aren't that high? Duh?

blkexec wrote:Since we digging up a 3 yr old discussion...

2019 – Timberwolves Roundup: Thibs’ minutes problem, and KAT as the future
“Both Thibs and some team members attributed the loss to poor shooting or effort, but there was another factor at play: fatigue. “
“Wolves fans (and everyone other casual observer of the NBA) know that Thibs simply can’t help but overplay his starters, and he is what he is as a coach at this moment in time, for better or for worse.”

2021 – New York Knicks Hurt By Minutes Distribution Under Tom Thibodeau
“This is a disappointing yet predictable pattern for the best and most trustworthy players on teams coached by new Knicks bench boss Tom Thibodeau, whose Chicago Bulls and Minnesota Timberwolves teams routinely had players lead the league in minutes played over the years.”

And there are more articles like this all over the internet during Thibs entire career. And if I'm not mistaken, I doubt any of these articles were written by knick fans. So whats the point of this thread again? Sorry for asking the same question.

so if someone writes it that makes it true?

The question isnt if Thibs plays his starters too much. He does. The question is are you dogging Thibs for something every NBA coach does?

Since we arent not impressed with minutes per game lets check how many nights our guys gotta go 40+ vs. other NBA players

Did you know 1/3 of Lebron's career games he's played over 40 minutes?

Randle has played 40+ 7 times

Brunson has played 40+ 4x this year (so has 38 year old Lebron)

Luka has played 40+ 9x this year

Siakem has played 40+ 9x this year

We can literally do this all day...

Ewing played 40+ minutes 340x out of 1100 games.... way to go Ewing (to be fair Thibs may have been on some of those staffs)

KnickDanger wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Panos wrote:I also think a lot of posters just repeat what they read here like an echo chamber without bothering to look up the facts.

I also think a lot of posters just look at stats instead of the game. Throw the stats in the trash and just watch the game.

Also, if this was about Thibs giving too many minutes to his players, that conversation is old, dead and gone (almost 2-3 years ago). But I'm sure people will talk about it over and over and over, because there's nothing else to talk about I guess, until the knicks make a spash move at the trade deadline.

What the knicks need to focus on is not what everybody else in the league is doing.

Whats important is getting the best out of the players we have period. And if giving them the league average in mins per game, is causing more missed free throws, TO's and bad play in the 4th. That means something has to change, thats it.

1. Get in shape
2. Reduce minutes
3. Make a trade

But to post a link then say the Thibs hate is overblown, is gas lighting. What are we trying to accomplish by bringing up a discussion that was dead 3yrs ago. Back when we hired Thibs, thats what label came with Thibs. And thats also when these links came out saying Thibs doesn't over play his players, according to the stats. So......... Why are we creating this thread again? Sorry I missed that part.

Gaslighting? Are we that sensitive here? Please. How dare I find an interesting stat and post it. And to claim there is no criticism currently of Thibs assignment of minutes -- that is just bulls#!t. Go to the Cam thread for starters. It's all over the place. Maybe not to the extent it was but still there. As I put it anti-Thibs agenda - but Thibs hate if you will - is a thing.

Gotcha....Gaslighting probably the wrong choice of words. Please forgive me as I've heard it all from many Thibs protectors. All good.

The question is are you dogging Thibs for something every NBA coach does?

Fish, sounds like you guys are looking for a fight. Go drink some tea and watch the game tonight.

I have no idea about any other coach. My only concern is the coach of the knicks and can he get the best out of his players. Thats it.

All this Thibs bashing, Thibs hating, Thibs loving can kick rocks. I don't care. Can Thibs win a playoff series? Can Thibs get the best out of his players without burning them out for the playoffs or better yet, in the 4th quarter.

Why does is matter if Thibs is doing what every NBA coach does? What does that have to do with Thibs management over our current players. I don't care about other teams. I posted what I found on the internet 3 years ago, because the thread topic was 3 or more years old. The NBA community was talking about Thibs minutes management way before he was a knick. So I asked a simply question, but that wasn't answered. No problem. I wasn't sure what motivated a thigs minutes thread. At the very least, why not let the so called Thibs Haters start a thread like this. Better yet, just go to the Fire Thibs thread, which by the way. The creator of that thread also said he changed his mind on the fire thibs stuff. So again, wheres the motivation to create this type of energy again?

Whats next the Hofstra police to repeat what he already said. Or Martin to post the same links from 3 years ago.

Go Knicks!

blkexec wrote:

The question is are you dogging Thibs for something every NBA coach does?

Fish, sounds like you guys are looking for a fight. Go drink some tea and watch the game tonight.

I have no idea about any other coach. My only concern is the coach of the knicks and can he get the best out of his players. Thats it.

All this Thibs bashing, Thibs hating, Thibs loving can kick rocks. I don't care. Can Thibs win a playoff series? Can Thibs get the best out of his players without burning them out for the playoffs or better yet, in the 4th quarter.

Why does is matter if Thibs is doing what every NBA coach does? What does that have to do with Thibs management over our current players. I don't care about other teams. I posted what I found on the internet 3 years ago, because the thread topic was 3 or more years old. The NBA community was talking about Thibs minutes management way before he was a knick. So I asked a simply question, but that wasn't answered. No problem. I wasn't sure what motivated a thigs minutes thread. At the very least, why not let the so called Thibs Haters start a thread like this. Better yet, just go to the Fire Thibs thread, which by the way. The creator of that thread also said he changed his mind on the fire thibs stuff. So again, wheres the motivation to create this type of energy again?

Whats next the Hofstra police to repeat what he already said. Or Martin to post the same links from 3 years ago.

Go Knicks!

Have to go easy on Martin. Rebecca's new residence at Wally World, still has him reeling. Fish is the father of teenage girls. Were lucky he's coherent. Not an easy job, I imagine.

The problem blkexec is that you dont have enough pep. Not enough pep will get you a visit from the "pep squad".

Seriously, its the debates about strategy, about coaching, bball in general, that brings me to UK. Not the debates about what is the proper amount of pep.

blkexec wrote:

The question is are you dogging Thibs for something every NBA coach does?

Fish, sounds like you guys are looking for a fight. Go drink some tea and watch the game tonight.

I have no idea about any other coach. My only concern is the coach of the knicks and can he get the best out of his players. Thats it.

All this Thibs bashing, Thibs hating, Thibs loving can kick rocks. I don't care. Can Thibs win a playoff series? Can Thibs get the best out of his players without burning them out for the playoffs or better yet, in the 4th quarter.

Why does is matter if Thibs is doing what every NBA coach does? What does that have to do with Thibs management over our current players. I don't care about other teams. I posted what I found on the internet 3 years ago, because the thread topic was 3 or more years old. The NBA community was talking about Thibs minutes management way before he was a knick. So I asked a simply question, but that wasn't answered. No problem. I wasn't sure what motivated a thigs minutes thread. At the very least, why not let the so called Thibs Haters start a thread like this. Better yet, just go to the Fire Thibs thread, which by the way. The creator of that thread also said he changed his mind on the fire thibs stuff. So again, wheres the motivation to create this type of energy again?

Whats next the Hofstra police to repeat what he already said. Or Martin to post the same links from 3 years ago.

Go Knicks!

the bold... if you dont know about other coaches then you dont know about ours. What's your context for judging him?

I dont sweat coach haters... its part of the scene. You also seem to think I am way more fired up than I am here. I've been baked since 930 this morning. I do enjoy rattling that can tho... we are seeing the best coaching here since Riley here so it's fun pointing out the obvious

The only thing that's pissed me off at all this season is I cant get the damn score right on gamepicker. Im killing it with the W/L but whiffing on the score. So you see EVEN I have some growth opportunities here

Too many minutes or not can be determined by statistics however, I would just hope he would pull his starters a little more when the game is out of reach. I know as a Knick fan no lead is safe - but there have been a few times watching when it seemed unnecessary to keep the starters in... especially when our bench used to be one of our team strengths. He about near ended Derrick Rose two seasons ago and while age/injuries/roster deficiences are a big part of it - I do think that was a clear example of him not seeing the long-term as important as the short-term/immediate IMO.

GustavBahler wrote:

blkexec wrote:

The question is are you dogging Thibs for something every NBA coach does?

Fish, sounds like you guys are looking for a fight. Go drink some tea and watch the game tonight.

I have no idea about any other coach. My only concern is the coach of the knicks and can he get the best out of his players. Thats it.

All this Thibs bashing, Thibs hating, Thibs loving can kick rocks. I don't care. Can Thibs win a playoff series? Can Thibs get the best out of his players without burning them out for the playoffs or better yet, in the 4th quarter.

Why does is matter if Thibs is doing what every NBA coach does? What does that have to do with Thibs management over our current players. I don't care about other teams. I posted what I found on the internet 3 years ago, because the thread topic was 3 or more years old. The NBA community was talking about Thibs minutes management way before he was a knick. So I asked a simply question, but that wasn't answered. No problem. I wasn't sure what motivated a thigs minutes thread. At the very least, why not let the so called Thibs Haters start a thread like this. Better yet, just go to the Fire Thibs thread, which by the way. The creator of that thread also said he changed his mind on the fire thibs stuff. So again, wheres the motivation to create this type of energy again?

Whats next the Hofstra police to repeat what he already said. Or Martin to post the same links from 3 years ago.

Go Knicks!

Have to go easy on Martin. Rebecca's new residence at Wally World, still has him reeling. Fish is the father of teenage girls. Were lucky he's coherent. Not an easy job, I imagine.

The problem blkexec is that you dont have enough pep. Not enough pep will get you a visit from the "pep squad".

Seriously, its the debates about strategy, about coaching, bball in general, that brings me to UK. Not the debates about what is the proper amount of pep.

I'll keep that in mind Gus. Thanks for the advice.

jskinny35 wrote:Too many minutes or not can be determined by statistics however, I would just hope he would pull his starters a little more when the game is out of reach. I know as a Knick fan no lead is safe - but there have been a few times watching when it seemed unnecessary to keep the starters in... especially when our bench used to be one of our team strengths. He about near ended Derrick Rose two seasons ago and while age/injuries/roster deficiences are a big part of it - I do think that was a clear example of him not seeing the long-term as important as the short-term/immediate IMO.

Agree. But since I agreed with you, be prepared to be bombarded with several opposite view points.

As Fish said, Thibs is probably the best we will get for now, so make the best of it. And to Thibs credit. Either he's reading these threads or other knick sites. But anything I have an issue with for the most part, Thibs makes adjustments. So we shall see how thorough he's reading these UK posts. And who's post is he ready will be determined by his adjustments. (sarcasm alert)

Time to start a new streak fellas.

GustavBahler wrote:

blkexec wrote:

The question is are you dogging Thibs for something every NBA coach does?

Fish, sounds like you guys are looking for a fight. Go drink some tea and watch the game tonight.

I have no idea about any other coach. My only concern is the coach of the knicks and can he get the best out of his players. Thats it.

All this Thibs bashing, Thibs hating, Thibs loving can kick rocks. I don't care. Can Thibs win a playoff series? Can Thibs get the best out of his players without burning them out for the playoffs or better yet, in the 4th quarter.

Why does is matter if Thibs is doing what every NBA coach does? What does that have to do with Thibs management over our current players. I don't care about other teams. I posted what I found on the internet 3 years ago, because the thread topic was 3 or more years old. The NBA community was talking about Thibs minutes management way before he was a knick. So I asked a simply question, but that wasn't answered. No problem. I wasn't sure what motivated a thigs minutes thread. At the very least, why not let the so called Thibs Haters start a thread like this. Better yet, just go to the Fire Thibs thread, which by the way. The creator of that thread also said he changed his mind on the fire thibs stuff. So again, wheres the motivation to create this type of energy again?

Whats next the Hofstra police to repeat what he already said. Or Martin to post the same links from 3 years ago.

Go Knicks!

Have to go easy on Martin. Rebecca's new residence at Wally World, still has him reeling. Fish is the father of teenage girls. Were lucky he's coherent. Not an easy job, I imagine.

The problem blkexec is that you dont have enough pep. Not enough pep will get you a visit from the "pep squad".

Seriously, its the debates about strategy, about coaching, bball in general, that brings me to UK. Not the debates about what is the proper amount of pep.

I'm GustavBahler. I know hoops by my pep sucks.

Pep aside I see Thibs as our Dwane Casey, and based on our personnel I expect similar results. Casey had Derozon/Lowry to lean on and really helped build up some other guys and a good program. He was let go after 59 win season and a 2nd round sweep to Lebron's Cavs after 7 years and surely the last 4-5 very good win totals. Nick Nurse wins a title (after they add Kawhi, I wonder to Casey's credit if THAT helped at all).

Anyway it's wildly obvious to me this is a building stage and that means chemistry and building culture and finding how to win games. Point is that process is going to make players and coaches look bad at times because growth is not pretty to watch when guys are playing through mistakes. Thibs has done a pretty wild job considering the Fizdale/Miller dumpster he took over. Players are really developing under him as well

I posted this a few weeks ago in the Fire Thibs thread...

As of 12/26/22
Barrett is getting 35 minutes per game. Tied for 30th in the league with a 32 year old Lillard.
Julius is getting 34.2 minutes. Good for 40th in the league.
Brunson is getting 32.5 minutes. Good for 66th in the league.

Minutes. Are. Not. The. Issue.

As a comparison, before this load management crap, in the 2002/03 season,
Barrett's minutes would have put him at 49. Julius minutes would have put him at 55. Brunson would be at 73.

http://www.espn.com/nba/seasonleaders/_/...

Look for yourself. This Thibs minutes thing is so overblown. He is not playing anyone on this team a crazy amount of minutes. Derrick Rose tore his knee in 2012. His minutes before that (2008-2011) 37, 36.8, 37.4, and 35.3. Good for 25, 25, 14, 24 (the year he was injured). Seems the one up tick was in 2010. Top 25 minutes for a 22 year old MVP caliber player doesn't seem to crazy to me.

Jimmy Butler seems to be the only guy that Thibs relied on to play top 10 minutes. The seasons he averaged over 30 minutes a game (starting in his 3rd season 2013) he was ranked #1(T), #1, #4. And BTW, Fred Hoiberg played Jimmy Butler 37 minutes per game his first year (ranked 6)

Joakim Noah topped out at a rank of 14 in 2012 (when Rose got hurt). other than that, no major minutes of note.

In Minny Towns played 37 minutes per (ranked 5) in TT's first year as coach then steadily declined.

This minutes crap with Thibs started and ended with Jimmy Butler, and for some reason is a label he can't shake. I think the worst of it is that he requires a hard 37 minutes per game (he hasnt played any of his top players over what looks like 39 minutes per game).

Even Total minutes played they RJ and Julius weren't that high...

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-...

Julius was 41 and RJ was 63 last year in total minutes played.
Julius was 12 and RJ was 28 last year in average minutes last year.

Thibs requires hard minutes and believes in playing his best players more minutes. but Jimmy Butler was the only player where you could say Thibs was borderline abusive with minutes (then Hoiberg after him played Jimmy a crazy amount of minutes).

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

blkexec wrote:

The question is are you dogging Thibs for something every NBA coach does?

Fish, sounds like you guys are looking for a fight. Go drink some tea and watch the game tonight.

I have no idea about any other coach. My only concern is the coach of the knicks and can he get the best out of his players. Thats it.

All this Thibs bashing, Thibs hating, Thibs loving can kick rocks. I don't care. Can Thibs win a playoff series? Can Thibs get the best out of his players without burning them out for the playoffs or better yet, in the 4th quarter.

Why does is matter if Thibs is doing what every NBA coach does? What does that have to do with Thibs management over our current players. I don't care about other teams. I posted what I found on the internet 3 years ago, because the thread topic was 3 or more years old. The NBA community was talking about Thibs minutes management way before he was a knick. So I asked a simply question, but that wasn't answered. No problem. I wasn't sure what motivated a thigs minutes thread. At the very least, why not let the so called Thibs Haters start a thread like this. Better yet, just go to the Fire Thibs thread, which by the way. The creator of that thread also said he changed his mind on the fire thibs stuff. So again, wheres the motivation to create this type of energy again?

Whats next the Hofstra police to repeat what he already said. Or Martin to post the same links from 3 years ago.

Go Knicks!

Have to go easy on Martin. Rebecca's new residence at Wally World, still has him reeling. Fish is the father of teenage girls. Were lucky he's coherent. Not an easy job, I imagine.

The problem blkexec is that you dont have enough pep. Not enough pep will get you a visit from the "pep squad".

Seriously, its the debates about strategy, about coaching, bball in general, that brings me to UK. Not the debates about what is the proper amount of pep.

I'm GustavBahler. I know hoops by my pep sucks.

Pep aside I see Thibs as our Dwane Casey, and based on our personnel I expect similar results. Casey had Derozon/Lowry to lean on and really helped build up some other guys and a good program. He was let go after 59 win season and a 2nd round sweep to Lebron's Cavs after 7 years and surely the last 4-5 very good win totals. Nick Nurse wins a title (after they add Kawhi, I wonder to Casey's credit if THAT helped at all).

Anyway it's wildly obvious to me this is a building stage and that means chemistry and building culture and finding how to win games. Point is that process is going to make players and coaches look bad at times because growth is not pretty to watch when guys are playing through mistakes. Thibs has done a pretty wild job considering the Fizdale/Miller dumpster he took over. Players are really developing under him as well

Hard to argue this

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

blkexec wrote:

The question is are you dogging Thibs for something every NBA coach does?

Fish, sounds like you guys are looking for a fight. Go drink some tea and watch the game tonight.

I have no idea about any other coach. My only concern is the coach of the knicks and can he get the best out of his players. Thats it.

All this Thibs bashing, Thibs hating, Thibs loving can kick rocks. I don't care. Can Thibs win a playoff series? Can Thibs get the best out of his players without burning them out for the playoffs or better yet, in the 4th quarter.

Why does is matter if Thibs is doing what every NBA coach does? What does that have to do with Thibs management over our current players. I don't care about other teams. I posted what I found on the internet 3 years ago, because the thread topic was 3 or more years old. The NBA community was talking about Thibs minutes management way before he was a knick. So I asked a simply question, but that wasn't answered. No problem. I wasn't sure what motivated a thigs minutes thread. At the very least, why not let the so called Thibs Haters start a thread like this. Better yet, just go to the Fire Thibs thread, which by the way. The creator of that thread also said he changed his mind on the fire thibs stuff. So again, wheres the motivation to create this type of energy again?

Whats next the Hofstra police to repeat what he already said. Or Martin to post the same links from 3 years ago.

Go Knicks!

Have to go easy on Martin. Rebecca's new residence at Wally World, still has him reeling. Fish is the father of teenage girls. Were lucky he's coherent. Not an easy job, I imagine.

The problem blkexec is that you dont have enough pep. Not enough pep will get you a visit from the "pep squad".

Seriously, its the debates about strategy, about coaching, bball in general, that brings me to UK. Not the debates about what is the proper amount of pep.

I'm GustavBahler. I know hoops by my pep sucks.

Pep aside I see Thibs as our Dwane Casey, and based on our personnel I expect similar results. Casey had Derozon/Lowry to lean on and really helped build up some other guys and a good program. He was let go after 59 win season and a 2nd round sweep to Lebron's Cavs after 7 years and surely the last 4-5 very good win totals. Nick Nurse wins a title (after they add Kawhi, I wonder to Casey's credit if THAT helped at all).

Anyway it's wildly obvious to me this is a building stage and that means chemistry and building culture and finding how to win games. Point is that process is going to make players and coaches look bad at times because growth is not pretty to watch when guys are playing through mistakes. Thibs has done a pretty wild job considering the Fizdale/Miller dumpster he took over. Players are really developing under him as well

I dont like to talk about it, but I had my pep surgically removed in college. After a failed, drunken, attempt of "We've got spirit.." Not an easy thing to live with.

You have to expect some posters not to be on board. Sometimes they make a good case why. Sometimes they dont. I include myself.

Ive said since day one that I believe Thibs should have the season to make a case to stay as head coach. If we got swept, if it looks like Thibs got outcoached, I definitely want the FO to make some calls. Do some interviews. Go from there.

I sometimes learn things about what Thibs is doing right from bball discussions. I also sometimes learn about what Thibs is doing wrong from these discussions. I dont agree with everyone. But I want to hear from everyone. Even those who want Thibs fired yesterday. I think its about how you make your case. The less hysterical, the better lol.

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba-fact-or-fic...

Each week during the 2022-23 NBA season, we will take a deeper dive into some of the league’s biggest storylines in an attempt to determine whether the trends are based more in fact or fiction moving forward.

[Last time on Fact or Fiction: Have the Los Angeles Lakers failed LeBron James?]

The NBA's grueling schedule comes at a cost to players and fans
The NBA has never been richer with high-end talent than it is now, and the product can be a remarkable one when the best players are sharing the court together. Problem is, you never know who you are going to see during the regular season, and the gamble for fans trying to attend these games is costlier than ever.

Advancements in sports science have helped players enjoy longer careers. Load management and longer rehabilitation times are employed as safeguards against injuries and re-injury, respectively. Unfortunately, we cannot eliminate either entirely, so the regular season has become a high-wire act of managing existing injuries and trying to prevent future ones. What gets lost in between is the fan's gambit, even if the ultimate goal is to ensure the roster is as healthy as possible entering the playoffs in its pursuit of a championship.

Take the Los Angeles Clippers, for example. They are one of six teams in the Western Conference with a winning record, currently in position for a guaranteed playoff spot, owners of the league's sixth-best title odds, according to BetMGM. They are a contender in theory and a MASH unit in practice. Eighteen months removed from ACL surgery, Kawhi Leonard has missed more games than he has played this season, mostly managing that right knee. Paul George has missed 13 games to soreness in his right knee and hamstring.

The Clippers have played six nationally televised games this season. Leonard missed the first four, and George sat the middle two. When they managed to get them both on the floor for a rare two-game slate full of stars on this year's Thursday debut of NBA on TNT, they may as well have been shelved. Leonard rested each game surrounding it, and George has not played since. Both played fewer than 20 minutes facing a blowout loss in what was supposed to be a measuring-stick game against Nikola Jokic's Denver Nuggets.

This is no fault of the Clippers. Injuries happen, and playing through them runs the risk of losing a $42 million player for the remainder of this season or possibly longer, crippling a team's title chances this season and beyond. They have to protect their investments, but so, too, should the fans. Additional preventative and rehabilitative absences, on top of the actual injuries, too often make ticket purchases a losing gamble.

I bought two tickets to this week's game between the New Orleans Pelicans and Boston Celtics as Christmas gifts for family members. The cheapest price for a pair of nosebleed seats on the secondary market was $226. That did not include parking, food, drinks or souvenirs. It adds up quick. And neither Zion Williamson nor Brandon Ingram — the major attractions on the opposition — played in a game that was all but over by the beginning of the fourth quarter. It was a watered-down product for a gassed-up price.

This is not an exception. It is becoming the rule. Families of four theoretically spent an average of $444 to attend an NBA game last season, according to Team Marketing Report's Fan Cost Index, which balances the primary cost of four non-premium tickets, parking, four hot dogs, two draft beers and a couple sodas.

That is a 44% increase from 2012-13 and a 53% hike from when David Aldridge broached this subject for ESPN two decades ago. The average ticket price only moved from $47 to $56 from 2006-07 to 2015-16, but it reportedly exceeded $100 for the first time last season, despite a post-pandemic dip in attendance.

That is if you are lucky. Most available tickets are caught in the vortex of a secondary market that can send prices soaring by more than 400%. Tickets for all but seven teams cost more than twice the original price upon resale, according to SeatGeek, pushing that average cost for a family of four closer to $1,000 a night. That is more than twice what it cost the same family on the same secondary market inside a decade ago.

Unless you wait for the latest injury report before making your purchase and loading the kids into the car for a trip to the arena, you are also crossing your fingers that you actually see the product for which you paid.

Los Angeles Clippers stars Kawhi Leonard and Paul George watch from the bench during the second half against the Sacramento Kings in December. (Kevork Djansezian/Getty Images)
Los Angeles Clippers stars Kawhi Leonard and Paul George watch from the bench during the second half against the Sacramento Kings in December. (Kevork Djansezian/Getty Images)
By my count, of the 70 games aired on ABC, ESPN or TNT this season, at least one font-line player did not play in 58 of them. Once you excuse long-term injury absences for players like Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Karl-Anthony Towns, Cade Cunningham, Chet Holmgren, Khris Middleton, Jaren Jackson Jr., Robert Williams III and the Ball brothers, among others, it is still anyone's guess which players show up.

Also 18 months removed from ACL surgery, Jamal Murray rested for a national TV appearance on the second game of the Nuggets' season (and the first night of a back-to-back). Williamson has missed all three of the Pelicans' nationally televised games this season with bruises to his backside and foot. The TNT doubleheader on Nov. 22 featured the Philadelphia 76ers sans Joel Embiid, James Harden and Tyrese Maxey, followed by a battle between LeBron James and Chris Paul in which neither actually participated.

Again, it is in a team's best interest to nurse players returning from injuries or prone to them. The pandemic also provided reason to take more precaution with symptoms of illness. Devin Booker pressed to return for the Phoenix Suns on Christmas Day, and then re-aggravated a groin injury four minutes into the game. He has not played since, missing two additional high-visibility games, including this week's loss to the reigning champion Golden State Warriors, which Paul and Deandre Ayton also missed with day-to-day injuries.

And these are the games the league needs its best players to satiate the TV networks. Your average NBA game is more of a crapshoot. On both trips to New Orleans this season, the Warriors rested Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Andrew Wiggins. If you are a season-ticket holder in Oklahoma City, you have already missed opportunities to see Williamson, Leonard, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Luka Doncic, Jimmy Butler and James Harden this season. It can be no coincidence that attendance at Thunder games has plummeted. Fans in Utah and Cleveland have seen similar skeleton crews in front of sellout crowds.

The NBA has taken steps to ease the scheduling load on players, limiting the number of back-to-backs and increasing the number of times teams play consecutive road games against the same opponent. A cursory review suggests those steps have not led to a decline in load management. In fact, it seems playing two straight road games in the same city has given teams an excuse to rest their stars for one of them. Of the 28 instances in which a road team has played two straight games in the same city, one or more star-level players missed a game on 21 occasions. It also increases the odds of a player missing his team's only two road games in that city, like when COVID-19 cost Jokic both of Denver's appearances in Dallas this season.

So, what can the NBA do if it cannot manipulate the existing schedule to limit injuries and appease the need for preventative rest or extended recovery? It could trim the 82-game schedule, increasing the time between games, the likelihood no one sits with lingering soreness and the stakes every night. The NBA is a remarkable product on the rare occasion during the regular season when two contenders meet with a full contingency of top-flight talent, or when players gut through minor bumps and bruises in the playoffs.

Only, the NBA will not cut games for the same reason it will not cut ticket prices. The money is too good, even it means asking the average family to gamble $1,000 on the off chance they see a finished product.

Determination: Fact. The NBA's grueling schedule comes at a cost to players and fans.

– – – – – – –

Ben Rohrbach is a senior NBA writer for Yahoo Sports. Have a tip? Email him at rohrbach_ben@yahoo.com or follow him on Twitter! Follow @brohrbach

Hey, I thought it was an interesting stat -- only one Knick in top 25 of minutes per game -- at #24. I was surprised. Didn't mean to start a tempest in a teacup.