Knicks · So Thibs only trusts 6 players on this roster (page 1)

Knicks starting 5 plus Quickley is all he’s going to play significant minutes as long as they remain healthy. Hartenstein will remain backup center and Toppin will see his 12-14 mpg behind Randle. Deuce is great but so limited on offense that he’s sort of treated as a mandatory 9th man but is only going to play 5-10 mpg. Knicks badly need to make a move with Thibs blessing where they get a player they know he will trust for 20+ mpg. Otherwise Knicks 6 essential players will be run into the ground. For the right guy I don’t mind sacrificing a later first round pick. Knicks have plenty and using one of the heavily protected ones that they value less is fine. Knicks just need a 7th man, so Toppin and Hartenstein can fill out the rotation and deuce can be treated as the situational defensive 10th man. If he’s going to only play a few emergency minutes a game anyways, then that’s the role for him.

Agreed but I wouldn't mind us moving off of Hartenstein. Deuce is great defensively but we need much more offense from him.
This team needs to consolidate for another bench player. I think he already exists in Cam but for whatever reasons (I think practice reasons) Thibs just doesn't like the guy.)
We are going to be exhausted come playoff time if Thibs doesn't get a great bench player. Other teams come playoff time raise their defensive effort and we are a bit normal then.

CanItGetAnyWorse wrote:Agreed but I wouldn't mind us moving off of Hartenstein. Deuce is great defensively but we need much more offense from him.
This team needs to consolidate for another bench player. I think he already exists in Cam but for whatever reasons (I think practice reasons) Thibs just doesn't like the guy.)
We are going to be exhausted come playoff time if Thibs doesn't get a great bench player. Other teams come playoff time raise their defensive effort and we are a bit normal then.

We are already showing signs of exhaustion by the 4th quarter (missed free throws, TOs or bad execution on offense or defense.

Seems like losing close games reduces Thibs trust which results in a tighter rotation. This is why Thibs needs vets or someone he can trust.

CanItGetAnyWorse wrote:Agreed but I wouldn't mind us moving off of Hartenstein. Deuce is great defensively but we need much more offense from him.
This team needs to consolidate for another bench player. I think he already exists in Cam but for whatever reasons (I think practice reasons) Thibs just doesn't like the guy.)
We are going to be exhausted come playoff time if Thibs doesn't get a great bench player. Other teams come playoff time raise their defensive effort and we are a bit normal then.

Moving away from Hartenstein is only realistic if we have a replacement. I’m guessing it happens this offseason when we can sign another center to compete with Sims for backup minutes. Hartenstein isn’t bad for a backup, he’s just not the ideal fit. His shooting and rim protection just hasn’t been as originally advertised.

blkexec wrote:Seems like losing close games reduces Thibs trust which results in a tighter rotation. This is why Thibs needs vets or someone he can trust.

Finding a vet he can trust is why the Knicks need to be open to moving one of the protected first round picks this deadline. Hoarding picks is cool but we have learned a few things about it these last couple of years. For one, they are pretty useless when trading for a star. Only unprotected picks carry real value. Also, it’s incredibly hard to package picks to move up in the draft. Couldn’t put together a package for Ivey. And couldn’t even package 19 and 21 to move up for Duarte or Trey Murphy. In the end it was fine because we landed grimes, but Knicks try like crazy go turn these picks into something big and can’t, so they trade out and kick the can down the road further. Or they can move one of those picks (or the lesser of this summer’s 2 picks) for a vet who can provide some relief for the Knicks top 6 guys. Eric Gordon, Saddiq Bey, Alex Caruso, Malik Beasley, or ironically Chris Duarte. Those are guys that come to mind who might be valued in that range. I’m guessing not everyone of them is Thibs preference, or worth that price, so that’s the key.

In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?

I like Fish's suggestion of trading for Westbrook. Of course, the second after we do a trade like that (for an extra body), Thibs will stop trusting the guy we trade for.

I'm not ready to accept the premise that Obi and McBride can't contribute.

I think Obi needs to be featured in the 2nd unit. We have to run plays for him.

And can we get Fournier some minutes.

If we're going to lose games going with 6 players - which may end with a quick first round exit- why not going with 8 or 9, try to develop McBride and Obi- and if we miss the play offs, we have actually accomplished more - finding out if McBride and Obi are keepers and getting a chance of a lottery pick vs mid round first?

Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?

What those bench guys haven't done consistently is make a shot.

franco12 wrote:I like Fish's suggestion of trading for Westbrook. Of course, the second after we do a trade like that (for an extra body), Thibs will stop trusting the guy we trade for.

I'm not ready to accept the premise that Obi and McBride can't contribute.

I think Obi needs to be featured in the 2nd unit. We have to run plays for him.

And can we get Fournier some minutes.

If we're going to lose games going with 6 players - which may end with a quick first round exit- why not going with 8 or 9, try to develop McBride and Obi- and if we miss the play offs, we have actually accomplished more - finding out if McBride and Obi are keepers and getting a chance of a lottery pick vs mid round first?

Agree

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?

What those bench guys haven't done consistently is make a shot.

Fournier, rose and to a lesser extent Toppin have all been shooting a low percentage without providing the defensive resistance to make up for it. Toppin is still getting minutes simply because there’s no other Randle backup.

blkexec wrote:

franco12 wrote:I like Fish's suggestion of trading for Westbrook. Of course, the second after we do a trade like that (for an extra body), Thibs will stop trusting the guy we trade for.

I'm not ready to accept the premise that Obi and McBride can't contribute.

I think Obi needs to be featured in the 2nd unit. We have to run plays for him.

And can we get Fournier some minutes.

If we're going to lose games going with 6 players - which may end with a quick first round exit- why not going with 8 or 9, try to develop McBride and Obi- and if we miss the play offs, we have actually accomplished more - finding out if McBride and Obi are keepers and getting a chance of a lottery pick vs mid round first?

Agree

Deuce and Toppin are getting minutes. I don’t think there’s anything we can really learn about them in 20 mins that we can’t learn in 12. They are rotation players right now who simply aren’t doing enough to earn beyond that. And it’s not a knock on them, particularly deuce. He was a 2nd round pick 2 years ago and I think he’s getting an opportunity that few second round picks get, especially on winning teams.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?

What those bench guys haven't done consistently is make a shot.

The depth we started with had to be condensed. That was thru November and Jules birthday release party. On paper we were deep, and when called on its working. Sims and Hart filled in when needed.
Toppin was not missed. Not slamming him, its just we are deep. Deuce looked good. Rose has not.
This team is a work in progress and doing as good as to be expected.
Key workd “expected”. I think Thibs has this group playing to its potential. Does that mean make trades? Move picks? Consolidate? Yes and yes, but how? Its easier for the fan.

This fan is really enjoying IQ growth, Randles now quiccknes to the rim, and the rise of Brunson.
RJ? Outside of the slow start can we really hate on him if we remind ourselves he is 22? Oh, and Randles Defense the last few weeks? Blocking shots and stealing the ball. he is rounding out to a bonafide all star and a contract bargain (again!!!).

Yes, I wish Grimes would shoot more but there is the big picture and I trust Thibs and Bryant to bring him along as he can.

Goals, making the playoffs as a top 8 would be a good season. Not sure what the playoffs will bring us but if we face a top seed giving them a hard time would be a test passed. With picks and a young team things look good.

Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?

Toppin for Duarte has been a commonly mentioned possibility, but we would be trading one rotation player for another which doesn’t solve the problem. An expanded idea would be Toppin and reddish for Duarte and Daniel Theis. Theis hasn’t played yet this year but is close. But he’s a guy who I can envision perfectly suited for a 12-14 mpg energy role behind Randle, plus being a defensive guy thibs can trust. And Duarte has been erratic this year but offers enough on both sides of the ball to play 20 mpg. IQ, Duarte, Theis (who can play both frontcourt positions defensively) and Hart, with Deuce as the 10th man for defensive purposes is a bench rotation I can buy. The question would be is if Indiana is willing to help us. They would have to drop out pretty well over the next couple weeks.

Knixkik wrote:

Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?

Toppin for Duarte has been a commonly mentioned possibility, but we would be trading one rotation player for another which doesn’t solve the problem. An expanded idea would be Toppin and reddish for Duarte and Daniel Theis. Theis hasn’t played yet this year but is close. But he’s a guy who I can envision perfectly suited for a 12-14 mpg energy role behind Randle, plus being a defensive guy thibs can trust. And Duarte has been erratic this year but offers enough on both sides of the ball to play 20 mpg. IQ, Duarte, Theis (who can play both frontcourt positions defensively) and Hart, with Deuce as the 10th man for defensive purposes is a bench rotation I can buy. The question would be is if Indiana is willing to help us. They would have to drop out pretty well over the next couple weeks.

Daniel Theis hasn't played this season, out indefinitely with knee surgery. Also has 2 years beyond this one for contract.

Tgis is a good young Team but it will wear down unless minutes are cut 10-15%. I knew we would lose yesterday although we played good enough to win.

Knixkik wrote:

blkexec wrote:

franco12 wrote:I like Fish's suggestion of trading for Westbrook. Of course, the second after we do a trade like that (for an extra body), Thibs will stop trusting the guy we trade for.

I'm not ready to accept the premise that Obi and McBride can't contribute.

I think Obi needs to be featured in the 2nd unit. We have to run plays for him.

And can we get Fournier some minutes.

If we're going to lose games going with 6 players - which may end with a quick first round exit- why not going with 8 or 9, try to develop McBride and Obi- and if we miss the play offs, we have actually accomplished more - finding out if McBride and Obi are keepers and getting a chance of a lottery pick vs mid round first?

Agree

Deuce and Toppin are getting minutes. I don’t think there’s anything we can really learn about them in 20 mins that we can’t learn in 12. They are rotation players right now who simply aren’t doing enough to earn beyond that. And it’s not a knock on them, particularly deuce. He was a 2nd round pick 2 years ago and I think he’s getting an opportunity that few second round picks get, especially on winning teams.

'I don't feel tardy!'

I don't feel like we are a winning team. We're an injury to Randle or Brunson away from another losing streak and staring up at the play in.

And for Obi - he showed last year what he can do if given time and focus.

There is a big difference from being out there for a short stretch and getting 12 minutes vs. being featured, asked to run plays and shoot over 20+.

We really only started to win when we got Grimes back and McBride into the rotation to play with energy. I think there was a stat showing our record when some of these players get 20 mins being really good.

I think the statement that Thibs only trusts a few players is true - and maybe he is right. If Obi can't contribute to 'winning', he should be traded.

Now - I think we would have had a better chance yesterday of winning if Obi had gotten more meaningful minutes. Why is Thibs playing RJ 49 minutes when he is shooting like garbage from 3?

Obi was 2 of 4 from the field, 1 for 1 from 3 in 11 minutes.

We got 2 points out of Hart.

RJ & Randle combined for 3 of 15 from 3. The second of a back to back, and they showed they're not super human.

I know it's hard to go small against Toronto - but I also know Thibs doesn't like to ever go small.

The 2nd unit needs a shooter who can also play defence at a respectable level. Svi is a pure shooter and an energy guy. Deuce is not ready and might not be an nba player. Svi is more experienced. Give Svi’s a chance

Rookie wrote:The 2nd unit needs a shooter who can also play defence at a respectable level. as I is a pure shooter and an energy guy. Deuce is not ready and might not be an nba player. Science is more experienced. Give Svi’s a chance

Svi is actually pretty good but more a 3&D guy... I love MccBride but his offense isnt there yet. He's got to develop a couple reliable moves

franco12 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

blkexec wrote:

franco12 wrote:I like Fish's suggestion of trading for Westbrook. Of course, the second after we do a trade like that (for an extra body), Thibs will stop trusting the guy we trade for.

I'm not ready to accept the premise that Obi and McBride can't contribute.

I think Obi needs to be featured in the 2nd unit. We have to run plays for him.

And can we get Fournier some minutes.

If we're going to lose games going with 6 players - which may end with a quick first round exit- why not going with 8 or 9, try to develop McBride and Obi- and if we miss the play offs, we have actually accomplished more - finding out if McBride and Obi are keepers and getting a chance of a lottery pick vs mid round first?

Agree

Deuce and Toppin are getting minutes. I don’t think there’s anything we can really learn about them in 20 mins that we can’t learn in 12. They are rotation players right now who simply aren’t doing enough to earn beyond that. And it’s not a knock on them, particularly deuce. He was a 2nd round pick 2 years ago and I think he’s getting an opportunity that few second round picks get, especially on winning teams.

'I don't feel tardy!'

I don't feel like we are a winning team. We're an injury to Randle or Brunson away from another losing streak and staring up at the play in.

And for Obi - he showed last year what he can do if given time and focus.

There is a big difference from being out there for a short stretch and getting 12 minutes vs. being featured, asked to run plays and shoot over 20+.

We really only started to win when we got Grimes back and McBride into the rotation to play with energy. I think there was a stat showing our record when some of these players get 20 mins being really good.

I think the statement that Thibs only trusts a few players is true - and maybe he is right. If Obi can't contribute to 'winning', he should be traded.

Now - I think we would have had a better chance yesterday of winning if Obi had gotten more meaningful minutes. Why is Thibs playing RJ 49 minutes when he is shooting like garbage from 3?

Obi was 2 of 4 from the field, 1 for 1 from 3 in 11 minutes.

We got 2 points out of Hart.

RJ & Randle combined for 3 of 15 from 3. The second of a back to back, and they showed they're not super human.

I know it's hard to go small against Toronto - but I also know Thibs doesn't like to ever go small.

were arent that good... you are right, but that's ok when the rotation is < 24 years old. We are literally learning to win game by game here and doing a decent job.

Thibs likes aggressive players that attack the rim and Westbrook is 100% that and he's a great disher which guys like IQ/Obi/Hart (the guy's he would run with) would really benefit from. Its a 1 year rental (or maybe we love him and he comes back in that role cause phuck it he loves NYC, who knows). Point is its a short term commitment and helps our roster some (Rose has to wanna go, and I think he's enjoy playing w/ Lebron)

I'm not saying Thibs' minutes distribution is beyond reproach -- I scratch my head at the doghouse phenomenon in particular. But I wonder how many of the loudest critics would be first in line to ream him out if the currently 6th seeded Knicks who have been playing good ball and winning games lately lost some of those games because the coach didn't lean on those he trusts. Just wondering.