Knicks · Knicks finalizing trade for OG: It’s bad - badass for Knicks, bad for rest of league BOO YA (page 25)

gradyandrew @ 1/9/2024 9:14 AM
foosballnick wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
Nalod wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
Nalod wrote:
OG is a great fit for what Knicks are wanting to do.

What are the Knicks wanting to do? Win a chip with the Big Three of Randle-Brunson-Anunoby?

It's like me wanting to become a billionaire by operating a falafel shop.

Knicks wanted to improve the defense and felt maybe open up the talent they already had on offense.

You should make the best falafel you can. so good the line is out the door. Then you get a bigger place. if succeeding, open more locations and standardize the process so food quality does not decline. It takes time and hard work. No starphuching the Falafel.
Good locations sometimes have higher rents. its a trade off.

If RJ was to stay the same, and We paid IQ and kept him off the bench, would we be better?
Then we have to pay others and due them raises too. Do we get better?

Not like we broke up a contending team. Its a work in progress. I don't think we win a chip with these three. one has to ask ones self "what don't I know?"
To me, our ceiling is higher and cap flexible. No guarantee.

To me, once the other shoe drops and we sign OG to the contract he wants, we lose flexibility for good. You could argue that with IQ we would have faced the same issue, but I rather think that trading a younger dynamic scoring PG on a $20m/yr contract would have been easier than trading an older defensive specialist at the SF spot on a $35m/yr contract.
Yes, we have kept our stockpile of first rounders, but how much are they really worth? Given our FO's reluctance to add a rookie from the lower tiers of the first round, probably not much.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't OG's salary essentially replacing RJ's salary slot? When you compare tradeability, that should be your comparison. IQ salary would be on top of that.

Yes! This is the key number- not how much OG will make but how much more than RJ. With RJ Randle and a center on the floor, spacing will always be an issue. Moving OG for RJ isn't just about the individual numbers. I think Knicks have got their core guys of Brunson Randle Hart and DDV and OG will be added to that group. Robinson/ iHart, Grimes and Deuce are also almost there. There's still a lot of season left- the biggest draw back I see so far are the big minutes played by our starters- sustainable in the playoffs but not really over the season. I wonder if Fournier for Burks is worth exploring as a short term fix to bring some scoring to the bench.

martin @ 1/9/2024 10:42 AM
Nalod wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:RJ is shooting 54% and 53% in 4 games with Raptors.

You believing those #s or the 42% and 34% shot over 4.5 years?

Too early to say. But if he sustains his percentages like this, it would be incontrovertible proof that our offensive schemes suck and he was not used here properly.

I think that was pretty much established when it was said he and Randle don't have chemistry and one had to go.
RJ succeeding in Toronto does not mean knicks failed with him. Knicks success hinges on OG fitting in. RJ and IQ will do well in Toronto.

Good way to put it

martin @ 1/9/2024 10:01 PM
KnickDanger @ 1/9/2024 10:06 PM
Yeah baby!
EwingsGlass @ 1/9/2024 10:30 PM
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:Sorry. I f—-ing love this trade. I hate the headline on this and think folks should be welcoming OG with open arms.

1) Guy is a perennial All-NBA defense contender. He guards 4 positions. You basically took a mediocre defender and replaced it with a 7’2 wingspan above average efficiency shooter TS% .598

2) This is not the same situation as Toronto for OG. He basically can have some combination of IQ and Barrett’s shots straight up.

3) IQ and Barrett were likely to make 50mm combined next season. I have OG at 35mm. We will see if this is a net savings.

4) His 37% from 3 will result in more point per possession. Huge wingspan, can release much higher. Will spread the floor better than RJ.


I am gonna miss Quick. We may really regret moving him. For sure. But he deserves to start somewhere and I just don’t see us moving Brunson.

I think that Murray trade is coming soon too.

I'm in this kool aid drinking boat.

Pretty sure this kool aid earned out.

martin @ 1/9/2024 10:41 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:
martin wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:Sorry. I f—-ing love this trade. I hate the headline on this and think folks should be welcoming OG with open arms.

1) Guy is a perennial All-NBA defense contender. He guards 4 positions. You basically took a mediocre defender and replaced it with a 7’2 wingspan above average efficiency shooter TS% .598

2) This is not the same situation as Toronto for OG. He basically can have some combination of IQ and Barrett’s shots straight up.

3) IQ and Barrett were likely to make 50mm combined next season. I have OG at 35mm. We will see if this is a net savings.

4) His 37% from 3 will result in more point per possession. Huge wingspan, can release much higher. Will spread the floor better than RJ.


I am gonna miss Quick. We may really regret moving him. For sure. But he deserves to start somewhere and I just don’t see us moving Brunson.

I think that Murray trade is coming soon too.

I'm in this kool aid drinking boat.

Pretty sure this kool aid earned out.

I’m drunk on the kool aid

martin @ 1/9/2024 11:37 PM
High praise for OG

fishmike @ 1/10/2024 9:53 AM
I like to keep coming back here and to this thread to read about just how BAD this trade and this player are. Thanks again MS!
martin @ 1/10/2024 10:11 AM
Deep fried crow. Sauteed crow. Crow pie.

Some of my favs.

martin @ 1/10/2024 10:14 AM
martin wrote:Deep fried crow. Sauteed crow. Crow pie.

Some of my favs.

Crow kebab. Forgot that one.

SergioNYK @ 1/10/2024 10:17 AM
fishmike wrote:I like to keep coming back here and to this thread to read about just how BAD this trade and this player are. Thanks again MS!

You're not batting 100% either man.

technomaster @ 1/10/2024 10:37 AM
OG. What an interesting player. I mentioned his tidy his game is, right? :) He's pretty fascinating to watch - most of his scoring so far with the Knicks have been through following plays. He gets the ball on cuts to the basket leading to an absurd amount of layups or dunks without the defense set. Making a football comparison, it's like passing to a WR on the run vs setting up for a catch. OG is the type of player who gets a lot of yards after a catch, whereas I think of the "old way" of Knicks play as catching the ball, taking a moment to gather, then deciding what move to make next.

It might just be my perception, but it feels like an absurdly high % of his shots have been assisted.

I think this sort of play is contagious. When players think they'll actually be on the receiving end, I think players cut harder and more crisply. Prior to the trade, I think the Knicks had a lot of phases where our stars would get into hero ball/isolation mode.

KnickDanger @ 1/10/2024 10:38 AM
RJ and IQ had good games for the Raptors again last night in 1 point loss to Lakers. Will “Adulting” be the next big NBA trend?
martin @ 1/10/2024 10:42 AM
KnickDanger wrote:RJ and IQ had good games for the Raptors again last night in 1 point loss to Lakers. Will “Adulting” be the next big NBA trend?

Just for the smart FO's

newyorknewyork @ 1/10/2024 10:57 AM
technomaster wrote:OG. What an interesting player. I mentioned his tidy his game is, right? :) He's pretty fascinating to watch - most of his scoring so far with the Knicks have been through following plays. He gets the ball on cuts to the basket leading to an absurd amount of layups or dunks without the defense set. Making a football comparison, it's like passing to a WR on the run vs setting up for a catch. OG is the type of player who gets a lot of yards after a catch, whereas I think of the "old way" of Knicks play as catching the ball, taking a moment to gather, then deciding what move to make next.

It might just be my perception, but it feels like an absurdly high % of his shots have been assisted.

I think this sort of play is contagious. When players think they'll actually be on the receiving end, I think players cut harder and more crisply. Prior to the trade, I think the Knicks had a lot of phases where our stars would get into hero ball/isolation mode.

Why he's hard to find. Its very hard to find players that will be able to play the defense he does while also able to average 17ppg without high usage.

fishmike @ 1/10/2024 11:02 AM
SergioNYK wrote:
fishmike wrote:I like to keep coming back here and to this thread to read about just how BAD this trade and this player are. Thanks again MS!

You're not batting 100% either man.

I am today.

MS doesnt like the FO, doesnt like Thibs, doesnt like Randle and will mention our low ceilings because of this every chance he gets. Im super comfortable with gloating when the Knicks are on the winning side of whatever.

Bottom line is this FO shows patience once again. Not only did they wait and get a very team friendly OG deal (who's an amazing fit) but they seemed to know exactly what they had w/ McBride and extended/elevated him immediately post trade and that's also looking GREAT.

We still dont have Jokic, Giannis, Curry or Luka so who cares right?

Chandler @ 1/10/2024 3:02 PM
martin wrote:
martin wrote:Deep fried crow. Sauteed crow. Crow pie.

Some of my favs.

Crow kebab. Forgot that one.

i hear it tastes like chicken

EwingsGlass @ 1/10/2024 8:49 PM
martin wrote:
martin wrote:Deep fried crow. Sauteed crow. Crow pie.

Some of my favs.

Crow kebab. Forgot that one.

Favorite Bird: Crow
Favorite Dessert: Crow Pie
Favorite Country: Crowatia
Favorite Tool: CrowBar
Favorite Hominid: CrowMagnum Man
Favorite Crustacean: CrowDaddy
Favorite Syndication: CrowFunding
Favorite Celestial Event: CrowTal Eclipse
Favorite Player: Crow G Anunoby

Sorry. Got carried away. By a crow.

martin @ 1/10/2024 8:53 PM
Crow G Anunoby.

I’m sold

ESOMKnicks @ 1/11/2024 7:44 AM
Don't count the crows before they hatch.

Wait for the playoffs and the summer FA market.

martin @ 1/11/2024 9:26 AM
Really liked reading this one

https://nypost.com/2024/01/11/sports/how...

How the Knicks' OG Anunoby trade echoes their historic Dave DeBusschere deal
Stefan Bondy


OG Anunoby is not Dave DeBusschere.

That is not what I’m saying. I couldn’t possibly, in good conscience — and no matter how difficult it is to resist recency bias and dismiss the players I’m too young to remember — tell you Anunoby belongs in the same stratosphere as a top-75 all-time player.

Plus the Knicks, when they traded for DeBusschere in 1968, were further along the path to a championship. They didn’t realize it at the time, of course. But they had all the pieces in place, including a point guard waiting to break out into superstardom.

And as that stylish point guard explained when I approached him last week with my idea for this piece, DeBusschere was the final piece for Red Holzman’s Knicks.

Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks, Clyde Frazier added, need another trade. Anunoby is the piece before the piece.

Fair and probably true.

The Knicks look like world beaters with Anunoby, but five games is too small a sample size to make grand proclamations about championship contention.

Knicks forward Dave DeBusschere, acquired in a franchise-altering 1968 trade, puts up a shot from the corner. Getty Images

Again, that’s not the point of this story. This is about the strategic impact of the two mid-season trades, set almost exactly 55 years apart with very similar reverberations down the respective rosters. It’s about dominoes falling in all the right places.

Let me explain further.

At the start of the 1968-69 season, the Knicks, as award-winning filmmaker Dan Klores told me recently, had too many offensive-minded players. There was talent, but it was a bad fit with poor spacing and players out of position.

Walt Bellamy, a center and former All-Star, needed the ball and clogged the middle. Howie Komives was a chucker guard off the bench. Neither had much interest in defense.

They were sent to Detroit for DeBusschere, a defensive demon who was so smart — and such a leader — he was named the Pistons’ player-coach at 24 years old.

DeBusschere’s addition gave the Knicks somebody to guard the opposition’s elite wings and frontcourt players — whether Billy Cunningham or Gus Johnson or Connie Hawkins — but the larger impact is what the shakeup did for the rest of the roster.

Willis Reed moved from power forward to center. That worked out well. His subsequent MVP award and two Finals MVPs can attest to that.

Walt Frazier elevated his game following the acquisition of Dave DeBusschere and helped lead the Knicks to two titles. Focus on Sport via Getty Images

Frazier went from averaging 26.2 minutes in the 25 games before the trade to 42.6 minutes for the remaining 46 games. Sounds like a winning formula. The shots and opportunities with the ball were redistributed heavily toward the best players, specifically Frazier, Reed and Dick Barnett.

DeBusschere, meanwhile, was highly effective playing off the ball, elevating the Knicks’ defense while adeptly knocking down jumpers from the corner.

Sound familiar? Just replace DeBusschere with Anunoby, plus swap out Bellamy and Komives for RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley.

“Where the improvement lies is the similarities: more spacing, better defense, less guys need the ball,” said Klores, the director of the documentary series, “Basketball: A Love Story.”

“It’s unfair to compare OG to DeBusschere. But it’s correct that he helps the team in the same ways as DeBusschere.”

The DeBusschere impact was immediate, if you remember. The Knicks beat Bellamy and the Pistons by 48 points in DeBusschere’s first game, then captured 13 of their next 14.

Jalen Brunson has adapted to his extra responsibility after RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley were dealt for OG Anunoby. Getty Images

Now it’s Jalen Brunson and Julius Randle leading a five-game winning streak for the Knicks, largely with increased responsibilities after the departures of Quickley and Barrett.

The sample is small but utterly dominant. Anunoby’s plus-minus through 164 minutes is a ridiculous +115, a record for a player’s first five games with a new team. Not even DeBusschere could claim that number.

“There have been times in all sports where a late-season and in-season trade is made, and the team catches on fire. So I hope and pray to God, also Allah, that this is it,” Spike Lee, the most famous of Knicks fans, said recently. “And he doesn’t need the ball. He can shoot from the corner. And his D is stifling. Rebounding. He can play anybody 1 through 5. You can put him on Giannis, you can put him on Tatum. And he’ll nullify them.

“We’re still one piece away, though,” Lee added. “So I’m very anxious to see what Mr. [Leon] Rose is going to do. We all know we have a stockpile of draft choices. And people are saying, ‘What are you waiting for? What are you waiting for?’ Well, he knows better than me. He’s the team president. But I hope this is not the end with OG.”

Lee didn’t want to identify his ideal target — “I don’t want to jinx it, they still blame me for Reggie Miller,” he said — but he’s hopeful for “orange-and-blue skies.”

Knicks fans such as Spike Lee understand OG Anunoby isn’t the final piece of building a title contender. Charles Wenzelberg/New York Post

After all, it’s been 50-plus years since DeBusschere, Frazier, Reed, Barnett and Earl Monroe gave the Knicks their last championship.

“I loved that team. We’re due,” Lee said. “Fiddy years. F-I-D-D-Y. That’s how we spell it in Brooklyn.”
Swings of Leon

Speaking of in-season trades, give credit to the silent team president for pulling off some highly productive swaps in his four-year tenure.

In 2021, the Derrick Rose trade propelled the Knicks to the fourth seed. In 2023, the Josh Hart deal catapulted them to the franchise’s first playoff series win in a decade.

Now there’s Anunoby.

It’s not quite on the level of the DeBusschere or Monroe trades, but it’s certainly better than other in-season deals of the past 25 years: Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway coming from the Suns in 2004, Tracy McGrady coming from the Rockets in 2010, Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith for Lance Thomas and Lou Admundson in 2015.

The big trades involving Kristaps Porzingis (2019) and Carmelo Anthony (2011) also were completed during the season. Grade them how you will. I still think the Knicks could’ve done a lot better with Porzingis.

‘D’ mattered in IQ trade

Emptying my notebook on the Anunoby trade, I can share a few items:

The Knicks wanted to get big, which was a concern as their defense plummeted in December.

My understanding is that while Quickley’s defensive rating is strong, Thibodeau wasn’t a believer the statistic held up for the guard.

Why? Quickley can defend point guards, but he can’t guard wings and in the NBA there are a bunch of wing-sized players who play point guard (ahem, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander).

In the second-to-last game of Quickley’s tenure in New York, he was playing exceptionally on offense against the Thunder, but was subbed out with four minutes left because of a size disparity on defense.

Emblematic and prophetic.

The Knicks lost the game, and completed the trade three days later.

So there was a concern the Knicks needed to get bigger on the perimeter for defense. It’s also not new from Thibodeau, who was giving minutes to stronger guards Alec Burks and Elfrid Payton over Quickley in years prior.

And Quickley, while highly valued for his offensive production, became the conduit to Anunoby because RJ Barrett’s contract (with four years and more than $100 million remaining) was viewed as a negative asset.

“There was only one real taker,” a source said, referring to Barrett’s hometown team in Toronto.

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