Off Topic · Biden out (page 41)
NYStateOfMind wrote:Well, I see not dealing with facts is still part of the problem. A comedian at a Republican rally poorly made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Not good..Another exit poll showed a "major reversal" among a key constituency — and could prove ominous for Vice President Kamala Harris.Latino men are breaking for former President Donald Trump over Harris 54 percent to 44 percent, according to an NBC News exit poll. The outlet called it a "major reversal" from four years ago, when Latino men supported Joe Biden by a whopping 59 percent to 36 percent.
Additionally, Harris's support slipped among Latino women, according to the poll. Harris has a 25-point advantage with that group, down from Biden’s 39-point margin.
The macho men didn't want a woman president. The Puerto Rican outrage didn't move the needle for Latinos. They would rather have a man who insults them than a woman. 🤦♂️
Um OK. I'll play.
What facts exactly are you talking about?
That they had a comedian known for this kind of humor to speak in a Republican rally? Made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. I am not sure how that equates. So you can make fun of a country and think the people who originated from there should not be offended? The comedians humor if delivered in his regular set in a comedy show would/should not offend people. You go to a comedy show expecting something like this. Delivering this in a political rally? Time and place is key here.
Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.
Definition of a real man is subjective and depends on your upbringing. The way I was raised. Men respects others and protects and provide for your family. Be honorable. Stand your ground and fight for others who can't defend themselves.
When I said macho men. I was implying hispanic men. Machismo is part of their culture. I am married to a dominican woman and have a lot hispanic friends. Small circle I know but all of them can't see themselves voting for a woman president.
Just for clarification. You are not implying that I am not dealing with facts and that I am not a real man. I have to tell you, nobody has ever questioned my manhood, at least not to my face.
NYKBocker wrote:NYStateOfMind wrote:Well, I see not dealing with facts is still part of the problem. A comedian at a Republican rally poorly made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Not good..Another exit poll showed a "major reversal" among a key constituency — and could prove ominous for Vice President Kamala Harris.Latino men are breaking for former President Donald Trump over Harris 54 percent to 44 percent, according to an NBC News exit poll. The outlet called it a "major reversal" from four years ago, when Latino men supported Joe Biden by a whopping 59 percent to 36 percent.
Additionally, Harris's support slipped among Latino women, according to the poll. Harris has a 25-point advantage with that group, down from Biden’s 39-point margin.
The macho men didn't want a woman president. The Puerto Rican outrage didn't move the needle for Latinos. They would rather have a man who insults them than a woman. 🤦♂️
Um OK. I'll play.
What facts exactly are you talking about?
That they had a comedian known for this kind of humor to speak in a Republican rally? Made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. I am not sure how that equates. So you can make fun of a country and think the people who originated from there should not be offended? The comedians humor if delivered in his regular set in a comedy show would/should not offend people. You go to a comedy show expecting something like this. Delivering this in a political rally? Time and place is key here.
Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.
Definition of a real man is subjective and depends on your upbringing. The way I was raised. Men respects others and protects and provide for your family. Be honorable. Stand your ground and fight for others who can't defend themselves.When I said macho men. I was implying hispanic men. Machismo is part of their culture. I am married to a dominican woman and have a lot hispanic friends. Small circle I know but all of them can't see themselves voting for a woman president.
Just for clarification. You are not implying that I am not dealing with facts and that I am not a real man. I have to tell you, nobody has ever questioned my manhood, at least not to my face.
You know saying on a board anonymously that your a tough guy is really odd. As a Hispanic male myself I find it rather hysterical. And this machismo angle your taking is warped. I don't care your married to a Dominican woman doesn't make you an expert. If I was married to an Italian or a Swedish I wouldn't be making broad generalized statements about those cultures. Infact, the more you know a culture the more varied you realize they are.
Alpha1971 wrote:NYKBocker wrote:NYStateOfMind wrote:Well, I see not dealing with facts is still part of the problem. A comedian at a Republican rally poorly made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Not good..Another exit poll showed a "major reversal" among a key constituency — and could prove ominous for Vice President Kamala Harris.Latino men are breaking for former President Donald Trump over Harris 54 percent to 44 percent, according to an NBC News exit poll. The outlet called it a "major reversal" from four years ago, when Latino men supported Joe Biden by a whopping 59 percent to 36 percent.
Additionally, Harris's support slipped among Latino women, according to the poll. Harris has a 25-point advantage with that group, down from Biden’s 39-point margin.
The macho men didn't want a woman president. The Puerto Rican outrage didn't move the needle for Latinos. They would rather have a man who insults them than a woman. 🤦♂️
Um OK. I'll play.
What facts exactly are you talking about?
That they had a comedian known for this kind of humor to speak in a Republican rally? Made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. I am not sure how that equates. So you can make fun of a country and think the people who originated from there should not be offended? The comedians humor if delivered in his regular set in a comedy show would/should not offend people. You go to a comedy show expecting something like this. Delivering this in a political rally? Time and place is key here.
Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.
Definition of a real man is subjective and depends on your upbringing. The way I was raised. Men respects others and protects and provide for your family. Be honorable. Stand your ground and fight for others who can't defend themselves.When I said macho men. I was implying hispanic men. Machismo is part of their culture. I am married to a dominican woman and have a lot hispanic friends. Small circle I know but all of them can't see themselves voting for a woman president.
Just for clarification. You are not implying that I am not dealing with facts and that I am not a real man. I have to tell you, nobody has ever questioned my manhood, at least not to my face.
You know saying on a board anonymously that your a tough guy is really odd. As a Hispanic male myself I find it rather hysterical. And this machismo angle your taking is warped. I don't care your married to a Dominican woman doesn't make you an expert. If I was married to an Italian or a Swedish I wouldn't be making broad generalized statements about those cultures. Infact, the more you know a culture the more varied you realize they are.
Nice. Everyone is anonymous. The man just questioned my manhood and me saying nobody had ever questioned my manhood makes me a tough guy. Cool. Can you tell me what should have been the proper response? I guess I should have just let it go. My bad.
My apologies for generalizing machismo angle to all hispanics. Did not mean to offend.
NYKBocker wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:NYKBocker wrote:NYStateOfMind wrote:Well, I see not dealing with facts is still part of the problem. A comedian at a Republican rally poorly made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Not good..Another exit poll showed a "major reversal" among a key constituency — and could prove ominous for Vice President Kamala Harris.Latino men are breaking for former President Donald Trump over Harris 54 percent to 44 percent, according to an NBC News exit poll. The outlet called it a "major reversal" from four years ago, when Latino men supported Joe Biden by a whopping 59 percent to 36 percent.
Additionally, Harris's support slipped among Latino women, according to the poll. Harris has a 25-point advantage with that group, down from Biden’s 39-point margin.
The macho men didn't want a woman president. The Puerto Rican outrage didn't move the needle for Latinos. They would rather have a man who insults them than a woman. 🤦♂️
Um OK. I'll play.
What facts exactly are you talking about?
That they had a comedian known for this kind of humor to speak in a Republican rally? Made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. I am not sure how that equates. So you can make fun of a country and think the people who originated from there should not be offended? The comedians humor if delivered in his regular set in a comedy show would/should not offend people. You go to a comedy show expecting something like this. Delivering this in a political rally? Time and place is key here.
Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.
Definition of a real man is subjective and depends on your upbringing. The way I was raised. Men respects others and protects and provide for your family. Be honorable. Stand your ground and fight for others who can't defend themselves.When I said macho men. I was implying hispanic men. Machismo is part of their culture. I am married to a dominican woman and have a lot hispanic friends. Small circle I know but all of them can't see themselves voting for a woman president.
Just for clarification. You are not implying that I am not dealing with facts and that I am not a real man. I have to tell you, nobody has ever questioned my manhood, at least not to my face.
You know saying on a board anonymously that your a tough guy is really odd. As a Hispanic male myself I find it rather hysterical. And this machismo angle your taking is warped. I don't care your married to a Dominican woman doesn't make you an expert. If I was married to an Italian or a Swedish I wouldn't be making broad generalized statements about those cultures. Infact, the more you know a culture the more varied you realize they are.
Nice. Everyone is anonymous. The man just questioned my manhood and me saying nobody had ever questioned my manhood makes me a tough guy. Cool. Can you tell me what should have been the proper response? I guess I should have just let it go. My bad.
My apologies for generalizing machismo angle to all hispanics. Did not mean to offend.
Defending your manhood only indicates a real insecurity. It's hysterical. You commenting on why Hispanics men didn't vote for a woman candidate because of machismo being part of the culture is missing the point white guys also didn't vote for a woman, was that because of machismo ? I'm of a Caribbean background, A man who is secure doesn't need to defend himself or his masculinity because that's just a construct that not everyone holds in common. I'm masculine as far as I'm concerned but to others I am not, so what ? You operate how ever you want but I m free to say it's amusing and indicative of more insecurity then a sign of strength. A contest of whose dick is bigger is hysterical. But anyway brother, we will get beyond this disagreement, I don't hold grudges. Plus I am a nice guy.
I feel like between Hillary, Biden, and Harris, the Dems have been kind of force feeding candidates on the country. Trump and Vance were way better on media.
A new report shows the Harris-Walz campaign and its Democratic allies spent nearly $1.4 billion on aired political ads in their failed bid to defeat President-elect Trump, outspending the 45th president and Republicans by nearly $460 million
Pretty mind blowing that even with a lot more money, Harris was never able to get her narrative going. Hell of a campaign by trump.
foosballnick wrote:NYStateOfMind wrote:Well, I see not dealing with facts is still part of the problem. A comedian at a Republican rally poorly made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Not good..Another exit poll showed a "major reversal" among a key constituency — and could prove ominous for Vice President Kamala Harris.Latino men are breaking for former President Donald Trump over Harris 54 percent to 44 percent, according to an NBC News exit poll. The outlet called it a "major reversal" from four years ago, when Latino men supported Joe Biden by a whopping 59 percent to 36 percent.
Additionally, Harris's support slipped among Latino women, according to the poll. Harris has a 25-point advantage with that group, down from Biden’s 39-point margin.
The macho men didn't want a woman president. The Puerto Rican outrage didn't move the needle for Latinos. They would rather have a man who insults them than a woman. 🤦♂️
Can you be specific on which policies you are referring to that will make your life better?
fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:cause middle class pay for everything under GOP. Wealthy get massive breaks so we pay for them and the poor.Alpha1971 wrote:Real issue is my wife and I gross around 210,000 a year. Not rich but since Trump passed his tax plans we owe so much in taxes where we never did before. Trumps tax plans cost us money and so many of his followers too but they claim he saves them money. I don't get itMy gross income is about the same and I’m paying taxes out the ass but I’m not a billionaire republican donor. #Freedom
The top 1% have more wealth than the entire America middle class and it’s going to get even worse. I’m an annoying a-hole I will be reminding trump voters of their blunder constantly next several years
Chandler wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:cause middle class pay for everything under GOP. Wealthy get massive breaks so we pay for them and the poor.Alpha1971 wrote:Real issue is my wife and I gross around 210,000 a year. Not rich but since Trump passed his tax plans we owe so much in taxes where we never did before. Trumps tax plans cost us money and so many of his followers too but they claim he saves them money. I don't get itMy gross income is about the same and I’m paying taxes out the ass but I’m not a billionaire republican donor. #Freedom
this isn't true. high income earners pay the lions share. "The top 1 percent earned 26.3 percent of total AGI and paid 45.8 percent of all federal income taxes"
That said, don't confuse high income earners with the highly wealthy where their stock continues to appreciate tax free and then gets passed on to heirs with stepped up basis avoiding tax; or where they borrow against their holdings and instead of being treated as income it's treated as a liability.
i think that's what gets most people truly pissed and is fixable
The thing that is truly maddening is that for the mega billionaires they'll have more money than they can conceivably spend (even living the most lavish lifestyle) in 100 lifetimes. And they know this. I think the issue is many don't want to pay taxes unless their peers also were forced to pay. E.g., you hear Buffet and Gates pledging to give money away (just not to taxes).
My solution would be forced realization of gains from time to time. Ordinary people have to do this with their IRA/401ks with RMDs. Not perfect analogy but close enough. At some point and preferably multiple points there should be realization events.
And while generating revenue for the government is super important, taxes are not bad if the government is delivering value with those dollars -- a much trickier question
i don't have the exact stat at my fingertips but roughly 25% of federal revenue goes into servicing its debt. Government needs to make more and spend less,
The top 1% have more wealth than the entire American middle class. 45.8% is actually on the low end of what they should be paying and that doesn’t account for capital gains being taxed at a significantly lower rate than income
gradyandrew wrote:Geez, this was like killing a wounded animal behind the shed. As soon as the first set of results went up, the margins were pretty clear that trump was outperforming his previous runsI feel like between Hillary, Biden, and Harris, the Dems have been kind of force feeding candidates on the country. Trump and Vance were way better on media.
A new report shows the Harris-Walz campaign and its Democratic allies spent nearly $1.4 billion on aired political ads in their failed bid to defeat President-elect Trump, outspending the 45th president and Republicans by nearly $460 millionPretty mind blowing that even with a lot more money, Harris was never able to get her narrative going. Hell of a campaign by trump.
Haris's losses were so big, FEMA sent her a check for $750
NYStateOfMind wrote:How about the top 2 for most of America, the economy and security of our nation? Add lower inflation, rates, and prices plus a safer freedom of speech country works for my life. How about yours?foosballnick wrote:NYStateOfMind wrote:Well, I see not dealing with facts is still part of the problem. A comedian at a Republican rally poorly made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Not good..Another exit poll showed a "major reversal" among a key constituency — and could prove ominous for Vice President Kamala Harris.Latino men are breaking for former President Donald Trump over Harris 54 percent to 44 percent, according to an NBC News exit poll. The outlet called it a "major reversal" from four years ago, when Latino men supported Joe Biden by a whopping 59 percent to 36 percent.
Additionally, Harris's support slipped among Latino women, according to the poll. Harris has a 25-point advantage with that group, down from Biden’s 39-point margin.
The macho men didn't want a woman president. The Puerto Rican outrage didn't move the needle for Latinos. They would rather have a man who insults them than a woman. 🤦♂️
Can you be specific on which policies you are referring to that will make your life better?
And how is trump going to reduce inflation? By cutting taxes for billionaires again? He added $7 trillion to the national debt in 4 years he will add even more than that next 4 years that is going to be an asinine expansion of the money supply and most of it won’t be going into the economy it will be going into billionaires offshore bank accounts and sit there in perpetuity while everyone blames poor kids for having school lunches or one in a thousand illegal immigrant workers going to the ER one time
I don't disagree that some ethnicities are macho, doesn't always mean they are bad people who don't respect women or protect their families.
To be clear, I never said you you weren't a man. Also, saying that people would rather vote for a Hispanic-hating candidate instead of a woman, was not factual to the election results. Also, make no mistake, I would never say something I wouldn't say to your face. Why take it in these directions, that is the division in this country. Respect is a 2-way street. Healing happens when all sides truly extend a hand.
Lastly, there will always be people who will not vote for certain people on all sides, fortunately, they are an extreme minority. Good luck to you and your family/friends and that is not a dig, but sincere.
NYKBocker wrote:NYStateOfMind wrote:Well, I see not dealing with facts is still part of the problem. A comedian at a Republican rally poorly made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Not good..Another exit poll showed a "major reversal" among a key constituency — and could prove ominous for Vice President Kamala Harris.Latino men are breaking for former President Donald Trump over Harris 54 percent to 44 percent, according to an NBC News exit poll. The outlet called it a "major reversal" from four years ago, when Latino men supported Joe Biden by a whopping 59 percent to 36 percent.
Additionally, Harris's support slipped among Latino women, according to the poll. Harris has a 25-point advantage with that group, down from Biden’s 39-point margin.
The macho men didn't want a woman president. The Puerto Rican outrage didn't move the needle for Latinos. They would rather have a man who insults them than a woman. 🤦♂️
Um OK. I'll play.
What facts exactly are you talking about?
That they had a comedian known for this kind of humor to speak in a Republican rally? Made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. I am not sure how that equates. So you can make fun of a country and think the people who originated from there should not be offended? The comedians humor if delivered in his regular set in a comedy show would/should not offend people. You go to a comedy show expecting something like this. Delivering this in a political rally? Time and place is key here.
Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.
Definition of a real man is subjective and depends on your upbringing. The way I was raised. Men respects others and protects and provide for your family. Be honorable. Stand your ground and fight for others who can't defend themselves.When I said macho men. I was implying hispanic men. Machismo is part of their culture. I am married to a dominican woman and have a lot hispanic friends. Small circle I know but all of them can't see themselves voting for a woman president.
Just for clarification. You are not implying that I am not dealing with facts and that I am not a real man. I have to tell you, nobody has ever questioned my manhood, at least not to my face.
Alpha1971 wrote:What's the definition of a real man, it's me, guys. Ask my wife and the ladies I have loved. They all sing my praises minus one. Ask me to describe myself and take notes and you will all know how to be the optimal male. I say so with utter and complete humility.
Real men lie about having bone spurs to get out of the draft or wear wig, bra and panties at law school keggers
Alpha1971 wrote:What's the definition of a real man, it's me, guys. Ask my wife and the ladies I have loved. They all sing my praises minus one. Ask me to describe myself and take notes and you will all know how to be the optimal male. I say so with utter and complete humility.
NYStateOfMind wrote:You are lucky to only have a minus one, haha. Most have more.Alpha1971 wrote:What's the definition of a real man, it's me, guys. Ask my wife and the ladies I have loved. They all sing my praises minus one. Ask me to describe myself and take notes and you will all know how to be the optimal male. I say so with utter and complete humility.
The minus one, makes me sad. I wish we had ended on better terms. She was a beautiful and shapely classmate in College statistics. An Afro Guyanese girl who was my first real long term girlfriend, three years. She introduced me to her family, her culture, made me feel good about myself for the first time as a young man after years of depression. Funny, it started falling apart because how she felt about me and my cultural identity and how she wanted me to be more masculine. I'm Puerto Rican and Jamaican but was not raised by my black Jamaican mother and look Hispanic Puerto Rican in the sense I'm light skinned with blue eyes. I also was friends with gays and was not macho enough for her at some point. She felt I invited gay guys attention but it wasn't me, it was just that I was tall and muscular, they liked that. She became very gender role conservative and wanted me to be a more rugged black man. Well anyway, the rest of the woman I dated loved my kindness, gentleness, and sense of humor and tolerance of all my friends. I'm very sensitive to cultural and gender perceptions. people are shaped by their culture but not limited to them. Especially as NYers as we are influenced by so many of our classmates and friends who are multi national.
Alpha1971 wrote:NYStateOfMind wrote:You are lucky to only have a minus one, haha. Most have more.Alpha1971 wrote:What's the definition of a real man, it's me, guys. Ask my wife and the ladies I have loved. They all sing my praises minus one. Ask me to describe myself and take notes and you will all know how to be the optimal male. I say so with utter and complete humility.The minus one, makes me sad. I wish we had ended on better terms. She was a beautiful and shapely classmate in College statistics. An Afro Guyanese girl who was my first real long term girlfriend, three years. She introduced me to her family, her culture, made me feel good about myself for the first time as a young man after years of depression. Funny, it started falling apart because how she felt about me and my cultural identity and how she wanted me to be more masculine. I'm Puerto Rican and Jamaican but was not raised by my black Jamaican mother and look Hispanic Puerto Rican in the sense I'm light skinned with blue eyes. I also was friends with gays and was not macho enough for her at some point. She felt I invited gay guys attention but it wasn't me, it was just that I was tall and muscular, they liked that. She became very gender role conservative and wanted me to be a more rugged black man. Well anyway, the rest of the woman I dated loved my kindness, gentleness, and sense of humor and tolerance of all my friends. I'm very sensitive to cultural and gender perceptions. people are shaped by their culture but not limited to them. Especially as NYers as we are influenced by so many of our classmates and friends who are multi national.
NYStateOfMind wrote:How about the top 2 for most of America, the economy and security of our nation? Add lower inflation, rates, and prices plus a safer freedom of speech country works for my life. How about yours?foosballnick wrote:NYStateOfMind wrote:Well, I see not dealing with facts is still part of the problem. A comedian at a Republican rally poorly made fun of Puerto Rico, not directly its people. Real men have no issues with people regardless of sex, color, & sexuality, they care about policies to make their lives better.NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Not good..Another exit poll showed a "major reversal" among a key constituency — and could prove ominous for Vice President Kamala Harris.Latino men are breaking for former President Donald Trump over Harris 54 percent to 44 percent, according to an NBC News exit poll. The outlet called it a "major reversal" from four years ago, when Latino men supported Joe Biden by a whopping 59 percent to 36 percent.
Additionally, Harris's support slipped among Latino women, according to the poll. Harris has a 25-point advantage with that group, down from Biden’s 39-point margin.
The macho men didn't want a woman president. The Puerto Rican outrage didn't move the needle for Latinos. They would rather have a man who insults them than a woman. 🤦♂️
Can you be specific on which policies you are referring to that will make your life better?
President doesn't affect inflation/prices. It's a proven fact the economy performs better under democrat presidents. You clearly are a China fan. Take the US out of world affairs, then China will fill the void.
But, why should facts matter, never do.
Philc1 wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:cause middle class pay for everything under GOP. Wealthy get massive breaks so we pay for them and the poor.Alpha1971 wrote:Real issue is my wife and I gross around 210,000 a year. Not rich but since Trump passed his tax plans we owe so much in taxes where we never did before. Trumps tax plans cost us money and so many of his followers too but they claim he saves them money. I don't get itMy gross income is about the same and I’m paying taxes out the ass but I’m not a billionaire republican donor. #Freedom
The top 1% have more wealth than the entire America middle class and it’s going to get even worse. I’m an annoying a-hole I will be reminding trump voters of their blunder constantly next several years
The Supreme Court will be locked in at conservative majority for the rest of our lifetime.
newyorknewyork wrote:Philc1 wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:cause middle class pay for everything under GOP. Wealthy get massive breaks so we pay for them and the poor.Alpha1971 wrote:Real issue is my wife and I gross around 210,000 a year. Not rich but since Trump passed his tax plans we owe so much in taxes where we never did before. Trumps tax plans cost us money and so many of his followers too but they claim he saves them money. I don't get itMy gross income is about the same and I’m paying taxes out the ass but I’m not a billionaire republican donor. #Freedom
The top 1% have more wealth than the entire America middle class and it’s going to get even worse. I’m an annoying a-hole I will be reminding trump voters of their blunder constantly next several years
The Supreme Court will be locked in at conservative majority for the rest of our lifetime.
Who knows maybe the conservatives grow a conscious. Pray for it
Does he have true allegiance? Doubtful. If not already he will turn on Vance not want to leave him much.
He is beholden to Putin who logically has something over him.
Will he go thru with nationwide abortion? I hope not. Does he care really about it? He is soulless so likely not. He does hate women so its possible.
Im baffled by many things so im scraping the barrel for hope.