Knicks · Knicks traded for Towns (finally official 10/1) (page 14)

newyorknewyork @ 9/28/2024 3:22 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Towns will be good for ball movement. My only concern is that with Randle gone, Brunson might go back to the ball stopping of his early days in NY.

When RJ was traded, we went from 3 ball dominant players to two, which worked. OG plays off the ball so the ball moved.

Hoping Brunson plays like he did last season, a good mix of scoring, and sharing the rock.

Another concern is that they're now counting on Bridges to step up his creation game. Randle can create shots and put pressure on the interior in a way that KAT doesn't. Bridges will have to fill that void.

Mikal was asked to do that as a franchise player. Here he will be asked to do that mostly for the 2nd unit for portions of time. Which is a lot different.

martin @ 9/28/2024 3:32 PM
Bro wrote a book, may need a glass of something to get thru it


KAT traded to the Knicks for Julius Randle and Donte DiVincenzo thoughts:

1) KAT has to be stunned. 9 seasons with the franchise he was drafted first overall by. He survived the Jimmy Butler saga. He got the Wolves to the playoffs in 2018 after a 13 year franchise drought. He was clearly enjoying playing with Anthony Edwards. Those press conferences during the Suns series were epic. He was a vital piece of a team that made the conference finals just last season. Without any knowledge of his mindset, I imagine him feeling like a CEO who just got fired by the board of the company he co-founded. If anyone deserved to see this project through until the end, it had to be him.

2) But the NBA is a business. And the truth of this particular business is that he is owed $49+ million next season, $53M the next, $57M, then a $61+M player option. That is not only a ton of money, but occupies a significant % of Minnesota' salary cap pie chart. Anthony Edwards' massive extension kicks in starting this season, and this team was headed for luxury tax/apron hell with the both of them on the team concurrently. Yes, the new broadcast rights deal is coming, and will send the salary cap soaring with a huge influx of BRI (basketball related income). In 2016, when the current TV deal started, the salary cap increased 34.3 percent between seasons, and created the space necessary for the Warriors to sign Kevin Durant. But even this potential dilution of current contracts' impact cannot hide the Timberwolves from the new apron penalties.

3) The Timberwolves' ownership situation is still not resolved. Not only can the two groups not agree on transfer of majority control, who pays the incoming gargantuan luxury tax bill is going to fought over by their lawyers forever. Regardless of the legislation result, it is feasible to believe both parties want to mitigate their balance sheet risk. By trading Karl Anthony Towns, they will get immediate and future payroll relief -- plus potential first/second tax apron relief as well, pending future transactions.

4) The Knicks paid a heavy price to form La Cosa Nova, rebooting the Mikal/Brunson/Hart/DiVincenzo National Championship Wildcats team. Acquiring Bridges from Brooklyn was not cheap. They will play a grand total of zero games together. But maybe that's not as big of a deal as my words imply, as Leon and Thibs have been nearly flawless with every transaction/roster move completed thus far. I, personally, wanted to see the four of them form voltron once again. It may have worked. It may not have. But it would have been *fun*, above all. If this move is what gets the Knicks through the eastern conference, then it will be viewed by the fans the same way the RJ Barrett/Immanuel Quickley trade was: "hope all is well, you look great in your new relationship. so happy for you. do you want to come to the wedding?"

5) Mitchell Robinson is one of the team's most important players. He's one of the few humans on this planet with the size and athleticism to guard any person alive at any spot on the court. He adds an above-the-rim dynamic which can help neutralize Joel Embiid in another potential seven game series. He also cannot stay on the court full-time. He is injured. Always injured. And he will likely be again at some point, after he returns. Losing Isaiah Hartenstein to OKC, the Knicks lost their depth safety net, six additional fouls, and went from the deepest at-the-5 position team in the league to "uh, do we have a true center on the entire roster?"

6) The answer was no. Precious Achiuwa overachieved beyond realistic thought last season. I promise that is a compliment. There were times at the end of the regular season when half the Knicks roster wasn't able to play, and he was one of ~7 guys asked to play 40+ minutes. He held down the fort spectacularly, and provided a jaw-dropping source of individual offense that helped the Knicks secure the #2 seed late in the campaign. However: I, and clearly the Knicks front office, was not willing to bet on lightning striking twice. He is undersized, and asking him to seamlessly fill Hartenstein's shoes is a one-way ticket to diminishing returns. Jericho Sims is not ready. And Marcus Morris Sr. should be expected to provide a Rasheed Wallace-esque bench role during his tenure with the Knicks on those Melo teams. Nothing more. They needed to solve this, because asking OG and Josh Hart to take on the smallball 5 defensive assignment for 8 straight months is quite-simply too burdensome, and they would inevitably get injured too.

7) The guy who was supposed to assume this season's "Hold Down The Fort Until Mitchell Robinson Is Able To Return" role was Julius Randle. With Melo retired, he has been carrying the torch as the 'Bully Ball' standard bearer of the league for some time. Boy, is he is mean down there. He looks mean. He plays mean. He rebounds like a grizzly bear in a perpetual state of thinking you stole his cub. I'm not sure why that's the first thing I thought of, but it sounds like an appropriate analogy for someone always seeking out violence inside that restricted area. In theory, he was ready for the task of becoming the team's starting center and all that it entails. In reality: he is coming off a major injury, still rehabbing it, and is headed into a contract year. With the Knicks not extending him this offseason, the writing was forming on the wall that the franchise wanted to keep its options open regarding his future. AKA: "I'm not looking for anything serious right now." AKA: "I'm probably going to dump you when it's convenient for me." Is this "likely to be dumped and he knows it" person who you want anchoring your interior defense 40+ minutes a night for 8 straight months? If you're a championship contender, probably not.

8) It's an unfortunate end to Julius' Knicks career. This man literally and figuratively bled for the team nightly. Before Jalen Brunson's ascension to superstardom and becoming the clear "get the ball in his hands no matter what it costs at the end of a close game" guy, it was Julius Randle. Before last season's trade deadline, the Knicks did not have the complimentary scoring pieces to relieve pressure off him. Yes, Jalen and Julius played 44 games concurrently together during 2023-2024. No, it did not have the effectiveness you would assume now knowing just how great Brunson is. Nobody respected the Knicks' three-point shooting with RJ Barrett/Fournier out there, and as a result: defenses clogged the paint and went under screens against New York's offense. Randle saw so many double teams, it became a running joke within the Knicks fan community. He had to go to that off-hand, mid-range spin fadeaway from the right side of the court. It's his favorite shot. Asking him to make them in volume consistently, after he had just played 40 minutes, was a task too tall for him. He was perpetually gassed, and so his late-game free throw shooting accuracy suffered. It was the only part of the game many Knicks fans would remember him for. Not the 39 minutes of blood, sweat, and tears he gave before. You could tell it affected him. His body language was contagious not only with the fans, but with his teammates. When Julius was in a good state of mind, the Knicks thrived. When he struggled and started subtweeting irl during the postgame press conferences, the Knicks struggled. They were so, so streaky. Two ends of the extremes at all times with him, and where he is headed now will most-certainly be healthier for both his mind and body. Chris Finch was one of his assistant coaches during Julius' New Orleans Pelicans tenure, where he was really damn good. You have to imagine they will pick up that proven working relationship right where they left off.

9) I say that because he is headed to a situation where he doesn't have to be the "we need a bucket, save us" guy anymore. The Timberwolves are a perfect landing spot for him. Mike Conley sets the table. Anthony Edwards is the killer. Gobert is the anchor. They have corner threes covered with DiVincenzo and McDaniels. Naz Reid is a roman candle of offense off the bench. Julius can go out there and do what he was put on this planet to do: play bully ball, 1-on-1, when it's convenient for him and the team. And no more NYC media breathing down his neck looking for back page tabloid fodder either.

10) Speaking of fit, KAT should fit in pretty seamlessly with what made the Knicks so successful from February 2024-end of the playoffs. KAT thrives in dragging his frontcourt defensive assignment into the deep end of the pool outside the three point line, either through catch-and-shooting or pick-and-popping. He is one of the league's elite long-distance shooters: 41.6% on 5.3 attempts per game during the 2023-2024 regular season. If the Knicks' offensive philosophy is going to continue to be "create as much spacing for Jalen Brunson as possible", I can't think of a better big man to have than Towns. On defense, he is not going to fly into the rafters to reject opponents' three point shots like Mitchell Robinson, but he has the physical attributes to bang with opposing bigs, anchor the interior, and clear the glass after defensive stops. That's if Josh Hart lets him, of course.

11) That 41.6% from 3 during the regular season dropped to 36.1% during the playoffs. While most NBA efficiency numbers drop due to the increased defensive intensity of the postseason, I will remain skeptical of KAT's laissez-faire approach to offense when the game's intensity extrapolates. Anthony Edwards implored him PUBLICLY to take over playoff games for the Timberwolves. Numerous times. When KAT is venomous on offense, good things usually happen. I'm not just talking about catching fire from three, but putting the ball on the floor and getting to the rim. His skill and size makes him a TOUGH cover. I just dont like that you have to pry it out of him and/or beg him to do it. If he had Julius Randle's Bully Ball brain, he could be first team All-NBA some day.

12) The good news is: the Knicks' head coach is the one guy you can trust to extract this from his players. Tom Thibodeau watches game film and then eats the VHS tape. Not to dispose of the evidence, but because he enjoys the taste. If the perception of KAT is he's the type of superstar who enjoys sucking on orange slices out of a ziploc bag during timeouts, Thibodeau's menu will include a choice of thumbtacks or nails. Considering these two have extensive history dating back to when Thibs was Head Coach/President of Basketball Operations of the Timberwolves, I am going to confidently assume Thibs felt his relationship with KAT is strong enough to sign off on this blockbuster trade. That, or Thibs believes KAT has what it takes to run with his pack of blood-thirsty hyenas. If anyone can ignite the hulk within KAT's skin, it has to be Thibs...right?

13) I will miss Donte DiVincenzo. That Game 2 three pointer will give me chills until the day I die. He made 283 threes last season, third-most in the league and the most in a season in franchise history. He played more than 35 minutes in 11 of the Knicks' last 13 regular season games, including 52:30 in the season finale against Chicago. He is the prototype 3&D player that every championship team has to have to compliment their stars with. He is a vicious defender, fearless, and thrived under the bright lights of Madison Square Garden. You are going to love this guy, Minnesota, and Anthony Edwards is definitely going to try and dunk on him at some point after the wars they go through during practice. Consider it a compliment.

14) The Knicks traded their Detroit first round pick in this trade. I am not losing sleep over this. This pick is protected Top 13 in 2025, Top 11 in 2026, and Top 9 protected in 2027. The Pistons stink, they will probably be in the lottery again, and there is a chance it conveys as only a second round pick way down the road. When you are rich, you can afford to overspend. The Knicks had a warchest of picks to use for deals just like this (and the Mikal trade) to get them into serious championship-contending territory. This is how they chose to spend them, and I am at peace with it. Last time I checked: future draft pick IOU receipts cant dribble, nor can they help you get through the Celtics and Sixers right now. (BTW: they *still* have the 2025 Washington 1st rounder, protected 1-10, and their own in 2026/2030.

15) In conclusion: I'm cautiously optimistic. KAT's contract worries me; as does his reckless fouling, which forces him out of games when his team needs him the most. But I'm pretty sure Thibs will clean this up, or threaten to skin a live dolphin in front of him if he doesn't comply.

I just can't believe the Knicks took the time to build a team the right way.

They have homegrown talent (Deuce McBride, Mitchell Robinson)
They made arguably the best unrestricted free agency move in the franchise's history (Jalen Brunson)
They have made several beneficial trades (Josh Hart/OG Anunoby)
They collected draft picks and used them to improve the current roster/didn't use them to clear cap space to go star hunting (LeBron in 2010)
They have resurrected the blue collar playing style of the fan base's favorite version of the team (Ewing/Starks/Oakley)
They have a President of Basketball Operations who is afforded autonomy and isn't a puppet of James Dolan (Leon Rose)
They make me proud to be a fan (!?)

It will take years before we can properly grade this trade, but for now: I can confidently say this is the first Knicks team since 1995 that has a legitimate shot to win the NBA Championship. (No, that 1999 team doesn't count.)

Welcome to hell.

martin @ 9/28/2024 3:32 PM
martin @ 9/28/2024 3:41 PM
fishmike @ 9/28/2024 3:43 PM
Nalod wrote:Nalod told you guys recently it would happen and you would not like it.
dude nobody cares
BigDaddyG @ 9/28/2024 3:46 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5800986...
John Hollinger
The other aspect of this deal is that the gap between Towns and Randle may not be as steep as you think. BORD$ values Towns at $41 million and Randle at $37 million for the coming season. While some of that latter valuation is because Randle is a bit of an innings eater, it’s also because he has more on-ball playmaking juice than Towns and is less likely to throw a hook pass into the seventh row. As long as Randle isn’t damaged goods from a January shoulder injury, this might not be much of a downgrade for Minnesota.

Randle is not Towns’ equal as a shooter or rebounder, and the Wolves are already short on shooting. Enter DiVincenzo. He bombed away from 3 last season (283 makes, 40.1 percent accuracy) and has one of the best contracts in the league. A player BORD$ values at $29 million, he makes only $11.4 million this year and is signed through 2027.

That first-round pick is not nothing either, although it’s a much lesser consideration than these three excellent players headlining the trade. It’s a top-13 protected pick from Detroit that changes to top-11 protection in 2026 and top-nine protection in 2027 before turning into a second. It has a decent chance to be a mid-first-round pick in 2027 especially, but it might end up only conveying as a pick in the 30s in 2027.

The important aspect of his pick is the future trade flexibility for the Wolves, who had no assets of their own left to use in any trades. But a pick like this could grease a mid-sized deal in-season or, more probably, in the 2025 offseason.

So, it’s hard for me to be critical of this deal for Minnesota. Randle arguably fits better next to Gobert and has a much better contract than Towns did, and the Wolves got an awesome sixth man and a tradable pick in the process. My projection system has Minnesota adding three wins as a result of this deal, and the Wolves also got more future cap flexibility and received a draft pick.

And for the Knicks? I’m worried this makes their roster too top-heavy and hollows out the wing depth. New York’s remaining group now leans a little too heavily into the Thibodeauian fantasy of using only six players the entire night for all 82 games and hoping they don’t collapse in a heap in the playoffs. (Yes, I just made up a word with five consecutive vowels. Heat-checks aren’t just for players, y’all.)

martin @ 9/28/2024 3:50 PM
Windy article has some details from the Minny side of things and why they would want to move KAT from financial perspective

fishmike @ 9/28/2024 3:52 PM
fishmike wrote:Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years.

First Leon move I hate. Oh well.

I really never could be a GM. I am too into the human aspect. Gut punch of a trade. Absolutely 2 of my fav guys. DD had so many big moments. Jules was a building block guy here.

In such a spacing based league it's hard not to grab Towns. Age is a N/A as he's only a year younger than Randle. His contract is what it is. He's missed some chunks of games in recent years. I would say Im higher on Randle regarding durability, but it is what it is.

Looking closer at last year's playoffs KAT did very well on both sides of the ball. He's a NJ kid and grew up a Knick fan. He's a good person and easy to root for. Absolute sniper.

So... I think with this the Knicks do have a higher ceiling and play a true 5 out. It just hurts.

fishmike @ 9/28/2024 3:58 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5800986...
John Hollinger
The other aspect of this deal is that the gap between Towns and Randle may not be as steep as you think. BORD$ values Towns at $41 million and Randle at $37 million for the coming season. While some of that latter valuation is because Randle is a bit of an innings eater, it’s also because he has more on-ball playmaking juice than Towns and is less likely to throw a hook pass into the seventh row. As long as Randle isn’t damaged goods from a January shoulder injury, this might not be much of a downgrade for Minnesota.

Randle is not Towns’ equal as a shooter or rebounder, and the Wolves are already short on shooting. Enter DiVincenzo. He bombed away from 3 last season (283 makes, 40.1 percent accuracy) and has one of the best contracts in the league. A player BORD$ values at $29 million, he makes only $11.4 million this year and is signed through 2027.

That first-round pick is not nothing either, although it’s a much lesser consideration than these three excellent players headlining the trade. It’s a top-13 protected pick from Detroit that changes to top-11 protection in 2026 and top-nine protection in 2027 before turning into a second. It has a decent chance to be a mid-first-round pick in 2027 especially, but it might end up only conveying as a pick in the 30s in 2027.

The important aspect of his pick is the future trade flexibility for the Wolves, who had no assets of their own left to use in any trades. But a pick like this could grease a mid-sized deal in-season or, more probably, in the 2025 offseason.

So, it’s hard for me to be critical of this deal for Minnesota. Randle arguably fits better next to Gobert and has a much better contract than Towns did, and the Wolves got an awesome sixth man and a tradable pick in the process. My projection system has Minnesota adding three wins as a result of this deal, and the Wolves also got more future cap flexibility and received a draft pick.

And for the Knicks? I’m worried this makes their roster too top-heavy and hollows out the wing depth. New York’s remaining group now leans a little too heavily into the Thibodeauian fantasy of using only six players the entire night for all 82 games and hoping they don’t collapse in a heap in the playoffs. (Yes, I just made up a word with five consecutive vowels. Heat-checks aren’t just for players, y’all.)

we gave up a lot, but let's be honest.. it was all chips THIS group got in the first place.

I also feel pretty confident in our ability to grow and develop role players AND for Thibs to use/play them.

Lastly we have Mitch signed for the next 2 years at $14/$12mm which is wild insurance/depth as he's not the backup guy.

Knicks are gonna he a "Who's healthy" team. If we show up for the playoffs with Brunson/Mikal/OG/KAT/Mitch/McBride/Josh healthy holy phucking shit I like it man.

martin @ 9/28/2024 3:59 PM
How about this take: Knicks were already going to ride small ball for a while with Randle and company and now they do that with literally the best shooting big man in the history of the NBA who happens to be a 7 footer who was initially drafted for his defensive prowess and offensive upside at Kentucky?
Knicksfan @ 9/28/2024 4:00 PM
martin wrote:

I’ve read this before, but never from a real source like this one. If that is the case, that is a huge plus to add to the situation. Playing for the team you rooted for as a kid is great motivation to improve and do what’s necessary to make it work. I really hope that once the shock runs off, he is actually thrilled to be here.

fishmike @ 9/28/2024 4:09 PM
martin wrote:How about this take: Knicks were already going to ride small ball for a while with Randle and company and now they do that with literally the best shooting big man in the history of the NBA who happens to be a 7 footer who was initially drafted for his defensive prowess and offensive upside at Kentucky?
Kat is a unique weapon. He also fit beautifully with very analytics driven good shots approach in a Thibs offense.

To me we are a who's healthy team. I feel we are legit contenders if this group shows up reasonably healthy come playoff time:
Brunson
Mikal
Josh
OG
KAT
bench: McBride/Mitch

Nightmare

ramtour420 @ 9/28/2024 4:26 PM
Wow. Okay. It's hard to add anything here as the most points have been discussed. I'll try anyway.
First of all, iHart is gone and we needed to replace his contributions. Which was being a defensive anchor, having a couple of plays per game where his passing gave us easy points, boxing out, having that sweet baby floater and making his free throws( Mitch better pay attention)

What we got is someone who is not a defensive anchor(while being adequate on d and having another gear in that regard when surrounded with players like OG, Mikal and Deuce)but has the rest of the categories covered in spades/league elite. The passing is better,the scoring from anywhere is on a completely different level, the rebounding is similar. The fact that our center is the best 3 point shooting center in the league on high volume completely changes our offensive ability as a team. We are in unstoppable territory. Our d has changed focus from being C oriented to relying on our swingmen( which is the most important position in the league imho) When Mitch is healthy we have top 3 offense and defense. You do the math.

Randle. He improved. To me that's the most important part. It's not how good you are, it's how good you are at improving. As great of a player as he is, I do believe he has peaked and we are selling at his best value so far. I don't like his mental makeup, I don't think it's possible to win a Championship with him on the roster. Towns? Don't know.

DiVinchenzo. He improved too. Losing him felt not right. Bestest shooter. You don't trade guys like him, you don't move guys like him to the bench. Unless you have a bigger plan and can see the bigger picture. He has too much swagger to be a 6 MOTY. He could have challenged anyone in the league for the starting 2. Mikal better be all that. And I think he is.

So don't expect the Knicks of yesteryear. This team will operate on a different level. You never got to see the Nova Knicks? NBA is different position-wise. You would have to sit OG or Randle to have theNova boys share the court. And that's assuming that one of OG/Randle is hurt. It wasn't meant to be unless Donte said " I want the 6th man role"

I expect a lot of blowouts this year. When Mikal/OG gets under the skin of your best player and you cannot stop the Knicks in the paint nor behind the 3 point line it's not pretty. Or it's simply beautiful depending on which bench you are sitting on

martin @ 9/28/2024 4:36 PM
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:How about this take: Knicks were already going to ride small ball for a while with Randle and company and now they do that with literally the best shooting big man in the history of the NBA who happens to be a 7 footer who was initially drafted for his defensive prowess and offensive upside at Kentucky?
Kat is a unique weapon. He also fit beautifully with very analytics driven good shots approach in a Thibs offense.

To me we are a who's healthy team. I feel we are legit contenders if this group shows up reasonably healthy come playoff time:
Brunson
Mikal
Josh
OG
KAT
bench: McBride/Mitch

Nightmare

Chandler @ 9/28/2024 4:38 PM
No more 4 on 5 on offense.

KAT can be 5. Or 4 when Mitch returns

martin @ 9/28/2024 4:40 PM
martin @ 9/28/2024 4:41 PM
No idea on how any of this works

martin @ 9/28/2024 4:51 PM
EwingsGlass @ 9/28/2024 4:56 PM
martin wrote:No idea on how any of this works

Interesting to note that with a Robinson for Jones trade they could keep both Shamet and Morris. Just saying.

Knicksfan @ 9/28/2024 4:57 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:
martin wrote:No idea on how any of this works

Interesting to note that with a Robinson for Jones trade they could keep both Shamet and Morris. Just saying.

Mitch all the way

Knicksfan @ 9/28/2024 5:03 PM
martin wrote:No idea on how any of this works

Crazy how we would be limited to carry just 14 players.

While Morris makes more sense because of the need at PF, how much does he really have in the tank?

And the rookie battle might not be so, because Hukporti seems to be healthy and give us another option while we wait for Mitch.

No random PF we might swoop in last minute? This bench needs some love but it seems that we can’t so much…

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